live their lives, and we are for it to continue, but it is important that they do not forget, thanks to whom, it is happening here, it means a peaceful life, this is what we are showing now, it is precisely this video of oleg sentsov, which he distributed, and we just took excerpts of this video, as what happens in the trenches, oleg often talks about it, where does the impression come from, yes, that civilians forget... that civilians, that civilians do not appreciate what is happening enough, you also have this the impression that civilian cities, tal cities, they do not value enough and do not interfere with prices, the price that is paid for it, and i once had a priest acquaintance, he told me that in the bible you can find everything you want, and even different role ... behavior models for

the same challenges, well, that is, someone will stop at talion's law eye an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and someone will stop at the sermon on the mount, love your neighbor, and everything else, and this priest of mine said that it all depends on you, where in the bible you place bookmarks, where they will lie, what advice for different situations, you will take yourself as a role model your own, zakoneona or nagornoprobu? i think about it every time i am asked, for example, about the army, because the army is also like the bible and you can find anything there, and examples of heroism, and examples of bureaucracy, and it all depends on where in your own memories you will place your bookmarks, and the same way i think every time when i go to the rear, and because you can also see in the rear, someone will see the indifferent boy. who violates

the curfew and there i don't know spits on the law, and someone in the rear will see people who and how volunteers, find mavics and send them to the front, someone in the rear will see people living their best lives, and someone will understand that those people, at whom he is just looking at, it is possible that the family of a fighter, who is now somewhere under bakhmut, and this is his wife, and this is his daughter, so it still depends, you know, every time the feedback about the rear is a little bit different, but the test, the test, when you are shown a spot, what do you see on this spot, and you already you're talking about your own, your own subconscious, i'm just trying to remember rocheh, that is, every time a look at the rear and conclusions about the rear is like a test. rorschach

, you look at the rear, then you begin to confess, and talk about the fact that, as you see the world, this is how it is, and on the one hand, i would like to emphasize this, that sometimes, the story about the rear speaks more about , who is talking, not about the rear, but on the other hand, i would like to emphasize that it is absolutely necessary to understand that the reality of the ukrainian... it is completely different from the reality of the ukrainian ancestor and it cannot but be different, it would not be easier for anyone if lviv resembled druzhkivka, and kyiv resembled konstantinovka, and on the other hand, i think that a certain contrast is preserved due to the fact that the ukrainian rear - until now, fortunately, perhaps to some extent fortunately, has not become the rear for the ukrainian front , the rear... for the ukrainian front there is

a collective west, it is the west that manufactures weapons, it is the west that manufactures shells, it is the west, the united states and europe pour billions of dollars into the ukrainian economy every month, because of this the ukrainian economy can to afford not to raise tariffs, not to raise taxes, not to limit imports, and so on, and when you, for example , i had some leave, i was in prague, i was in warsaw, i was lucky, kombat signed a permit to to spend a vacation abroad, and when i returned, many people asked me what stands out when you compare a street in prague or a street in warsaw with the ukrainian streets of lviv or kyiv, so nothing stands out, there is no such contrast, fortunately, the ukrainian rear can to be, to allow ourselves to not be like the rear , because our rear is a collective measure, and

if the collective measure, europe or the united states decides, friends, we will continue to give you weapons, but we will not give you money to ... maintain the economy and we will have to look for this money somewhere, then maybe the contrast between, well then, maybe the ukrainian rear will have to become the ukrainian rear of a warring country, and we will see more restrictions or more of some kind, then i will ask you right away about your text, you not so long ago , a few months ago, wrote a text called projecting the future in the public imagination. or about projecting the future in the public imagination, perhaps the transcription of some interview, and about what is possible, perhaps, you see , you write so much that even i never come up with such complex titles for texts, i have a lot of them, maybe i made them so complicated, but it is about the fact that you write about the fact that if

the war ends or ends according to the scenario that society considers victorious, then we will all be security systems and so on, but if the war will not end in such a scenario that society will consider a defeat, so then it will actually turn into anti-westernism, resentment and so on, what do you or in these few months that have somehow changed your thoughts, well according to what news we have , let's say there from the ukrainian-polish border, with the adoption of the budget in the draft law, so in the american congress, and with all this, i see that this, that

these are anti-western sentiments, that they are actively fueled as well, they are not just, they are not just themselves are born somewhere, well, i think so we have anti-western sentiments, even if not a single russian ipso was working in our country, they would still be born anyway, one way or another, simply because yes, and we see a case, the blocking of ukrainian trucks on the polish border, we see a victory robert fico in slovakia, we see orban, well orban from the first day, but in the 23rd we still saw a victory, and the populists in the netherlands, who are also not very favorable to us, we see the trumpists, due to the blocking of which we still can't get the money and of course look first of all, i believe that no matter how the war ends, if it does not end there with defeat and the disappearance of ukrainian statehood, then

the main, main internal ukrainian dilemma will change immediately, if from 1991 to even 22 year, it was a wobble... east-west, we are part of the western world, do we need to negotiate with russia, the csto, chito, the soviet union, or the european union, then all this will disappear, i think that the future is already faded into oblivion, and the future, the main ukrainian dilemma, these will be classic scales for any european country, one part of society will demand to save democracy. and the other part of society will demand to save the nation, this is a hesitation between eurooptimists and eurosceptics, every eurosceptic comes and says: here is all your transparency, democracy, the european union is the destruction

of nations. we need to save the nation, we need a little isolationism, we need to direct our efforts not to building green energy there somewhere. to take care of the fate of an ordinary pole, hungarian, slovak, citizen of the netherlands and so on right here and now, and so on, and so on, and other people will say the opposite, who will be euro-optimists, we must save democracy, we must, on the contrary , continue to integrate into some supranational structures and everything else, i think that this, excuse me, i hope i am not above you now, nothing, nothing, yes, ah, i think that, we have, this challenge, and we will also be divided into eurosticians and eurooptimists, and of course that any

victory of the eurosceptics now, somewhere in european countries, it will also feed present and future ones there are ukrainian ones. skeptics who will say , well, look, we defended them, and they elected people there who devalued ukraine, suggested that ukraine sit down at the negotiating table with putin, and so on, and so on, and so on, it seems to me very far script why? i will tell you even now, for example, we can now understand which political forces will lean towards which political future of this camp, who will become a eurosceptic, who will become a eurooptimist, this is clear, even now, when we listen to the interview, ah, it will be too we can understand which camp this or that speaker leans towards, so i think it's just now, this, this, this

, do you remember, this is the story of when there was this dispute between volodymyr zelensky and ben wallace about who should thank whom, should we thank the europeans for supplying us with weapons, or should the europeans thank ukraine for the fact that we use their weapons to fight on our territory, for example, one of the main questions is whether it is ready, for example , putin, say, war with nato, depending on how you answer this question, you also feed either the eurooptimist camp or the eurosceptic camp, because if putin is not ready to fight with nato, then nato is safe, all nato countries are safe, and their help to us is charity, if we believe that putin is ready to fight with nato, then... the west is just now defending itself against a future attack on itself, on itself, by the hands

of the ukrainian army, and handing over weapons to us is not their right, it is their duty, or you give us weapons, we will use them to fight on ukrainian territories, or you will use them yourself fight when putin deals with ukraine and goes further west. and how do you feel the role and weight and importance of the ukrainian army, it seems to me that the ukrainian army is becoming such a very visible, subjective, yes, player, in general , not only at the front, but it can become, and later, after the victory, so , to become a very important player in ukrainian politics, do you see this, no, i don't, you don't see, in general, the conditions for, let's say, even a military coup, as a last resort, the participation of the army in political life, it is possible only where the army is the only institute in the country, and all other institutes are supposedly bogus, where there, it is

possible where the elites consider a military career for their children, as the only real career, it is possible to be where the army is, usually it is in young countries, like young turkey after the collapse of the ottoman empire, where the army is the only conductor of modernization... and where a person in uniform is perceived as the only conductor of mobilization, values, success in society and so on and so forth. ukrainian society is not the kind where a military career is perceived as something like the only opportunity to build a career, in this sense, ukraine is not the result of many. factors, and a career is possible, for example, a military coup, because it was

possible during the time of ataturk, in turkey, which is ours, where the army was the only guarantor of both modernization and, in general, career and success , and so on, and so on and so forth, in our country you have to understand, the army is made up of very different people, we, when in pixel, we are all similar to each other, and when... when you go talk to the soldiers, you will find out, this one wants euro integration and so on and so on it's just that a section of society is the same as the bigger ones, and this soldier or officer wants to be a separate israel, which may include disobeying the west, and this one generally believes that we should be there, i don't know, not enter anywhere there , but to build your own sovereign state, so aa on us unite... not pixel, but pixel does not make our views

the same and our visions the same, and the army can be generalized in some things, well , for example, the quality of food, in the army more or less everything is fine with it, but not the army it is possible to generalize on the level, and for whom the army will vote, that's why i don't know, i only generalize simply in terms of the degree of legitimacy and public trust in the army, that is, that's just me, i only had this in mind when i spoke. it exists, but it is difficult for me to imagine the party of the military, here is the party of the military, what it will insist on, except that let's invest in the army, in patriotic education. what military will it be, yes, there will be military, you are also military, yes, i just mean, what to generalize there when i hear about the party of the military, or about how the army participates in political life, well, it is supposedly a party of brown-haired people, or a party of brunettes, well, yes, there are

signs that unite, of course, that these signs are more than... hair, it certain experience, but within the military there are very different views on how instrumentally the country should develop after the active phase of hostilities ends. let's go back to the quarrels now, let's go back to the quarrels, that 's what we started talking about, i also want to ask you if it can be... civil society united and consolidated, yes , if the government, if these divisive movements come, in particular from the government, yes, for example, we see these cracks, these conflicts that are not explained to us yet, so between the political military leadership, yes, these are some strange

statements by the people's deputy of ukraine bezugllaya, yes, or other things, just a few days... in that volume, the media arch, which you know very well, appealed to the law enforcement authorities with a statement that anonymous telegram channels , which we also know, yes, they are are related, many of them are related to the president's office, this is this appeal, so the media people call on the law enforcement officers to identify those involved in the pressure on journalists, so on the detector, on the media detector, in particular nataliya ligachova. and so on, but what about these intimidations, because there were threats to natalya ligachova, who heads the media detector, how this intimidation can affect relations in society, the state of society, and so on, and what is our strategy, how civil society can be in this situation, on yours

opinion, i'll be honest, i missed everything, well, i told you, yes, i just didn't read what this guy, that guy or other telegram channels wrote about the media detector, and i just didn't dive in yet , it's hard for me to comment, i just understand, i understand that ah , i heard that in the office of the president, when either the records held meetings with copper workers there, or not other records, well, they invited there, in particular, representatives... these anonymous telegram channels are like rubbish and so on and so on, maybe they are believed that it was an interesting idea, how to make the administrators of the largest ukrainian telegram channels obedient, or affiliated there. it seems to me that it is not

very, it shows that people. the person who was responsible for who exactly to invite to the president's office for a meeting with the people of mozhanov does not really understand the difference between an anonymous telegram channel and journalism, it is probably people who look at the number, but do not really understand why sometimes some are able to win the number, that's why, because of this, for an invitation to representatives of the authorities, there are the same telegram channels, which do not always think about the consequences in which they published, in particular, videos of the arrival of russian missiles and so on, and so on, that is, they live here and now and they are generally about monetization, and not about any values ​​there, they begin to feel

the power behind them, shine with reflected light , let's say so, and because of this they start hyping here and there, running into representatives of the journalistic guild, do you see a threat in that, we have been with you for a long time already over for half an hour we talk about the fact that these neuroses are actually some kind of tension, cracks in the relations between people, between environments, between the authorities and copper workers, between the authorities and the military, military leaders. it 's dangerous, but it's terribly dangerous for me, it's definitely dangerous, because a country can win only when its outer fortress wall is higher than the inner fences. if the internal fences become higher than the external fortress wall, then the country begins to fall apart, the country begins to fight, with

itself, and not with the external enemy, and certainly, a significant part of the russian ipso, informational and psychological special operations, they are particularly aimed at reducing interpersonal trust in ukrainian. to reduce trust in the authorities, to reduce trust in the army, to reduce trust in institutions, and simply do not help to be voluntary assistants of the russian special services, in this, and it also seems to me that the fact that the party in power still cannot decide how they should react to the... will react, this will also be a signal, if they

do not react in any way, thereby normalizing maryana's attacks on the commander-in-chief, this will also be a signal , it seems to me that society is like an element, we cannot demand from society by addressing ours what not to do that , don't do this, well, society is like this element, trying to manage it, sometimes or teach it, it's sometimes like sects sects the sea, well, that is, the result is the same, but there are headliners and stakeholders, well, that is, there are people who are carriers certain resource entity, the president, politicians, leaders of the opposition, leaders of public opinion, and and... others, and if we interview iryna farion less often, we will ask her less often how she feels about russian-speaking

servicemen, russian-speaking military personnel will have fewer reasons for indignation, well, it is the responsibility of the editors, what is the goal it sets before itself, to get hundreds of thousands, millions of views, or not to get them at the cost of public peace, it also depends on the opposition, whether it will be the opposition registers mindless petitions , such as, let all military personnel go home after 18 months of service, understanding that the authorities, for example, or now, or the state administration of ukraine cannot even agree to let them go, and understanding that the fact of registering such a petition will bring you personal political dividends. but it will kill the climate in trust in, for example, the armed forces, it should not be done that way either, and the authorities, in the end, need a little less than,

sometimes it seems to me that we live in the conditions of an undeclared election campaign, when everyone is not thinking about the consequences of their actions and not about long-term horizons, and about situational ratings, you have this feeling , here is the last question, you have this feeling that in our shop, yes, among media workers, and in the political class there are enough people, there is a critical number of people who understand these all the threats you're talking about and won't let that happen, well if our country lost, a healthy glost, the rivet went crazy, we 'd lose the war back in 22, ugh, so, i 'm just thinking that that the fact that we are resisting the country on the... the biggest country on the planet and we are fighting the biggest continental war in the last 70 years, because all other wars are wars of personnel army against guerrilla movements, and so that personnel army against

personnel army, the last one there was the iran-iraq war of 81 and 86 and we , here we are now, and the fact that we are resisting and quite well, it makes me so moderate , but optimistic, but i wish that, we live in a very inflamed society, in a very society, in which there is a lot of stress, in which in an atmosphere in which there is often a temptation to find the guilty and let them go free our inner monkey, and the more carefully we control our inner monkey, not letting it behind the keyboard, on the air, to fly there into space... or any other decisions, the easier it will be for all of us to live on, and the easier it will be for all of us to be, to maintain a sense of commonality

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18:00 in ukraine, for your attention news release on the espresso tv channel, in the studio of iryna koval, i greet all viewers. the number of victims in kherson has increased, two dead and seven wounded, the city's military administration reported. the russians shelled the central part of the city. all the victims were hospitalized. the occupiers from the temporarily occupied left bank struck a lot.