ok, keep our fingers crossed, everything will be really good. thank you, gentlemen, yes, we understand that summing up, although somehow the end of the year is approaching, but there is no possibility, yes, we are starting to monitor the processes, they are only gaining momentum, but thank god that we understand in which direction they are going, and that's it after all, practically everyone in this country, i understand, in this world understands that to let an authoritarian regime win, it means to destroy this world for good. thank you, gentlemen, ruslan osypenko, maksym dzhigun, yehor cherniv, thank you join in, good night everyone, we hope that we will get some sleep, as you couldn't sleep this night, and have a quiet weekend to you, it will be ukraine, chevorons. that bring victory closer. strength, will

and infamy. have been handed down from father to son for centuries, and i am the one who carries cossack strength and cossack glory engraved on my heart. i am the one who carries the glory of freedom-loving ancestors. whose unyielding will lives to this day, i am the one who for centuries carries the spirit of struggle and ideas, the one who will never bow down to the enemy, i am the fear of ukraine, unbroken and unconquered, i will defend the land given to me by god and always believe in mine.

invincibility, step by step, they move from one danger to another , step by step, they free from invisible death our land, fields and forests, homes where evil visited, without sappers, life will not return here, without courage and self-knowledge . these people, we will not return home, for your work and our safety, we thank the sappers of the state emergency service of ukraine. 1+1 will continue the national telethon, at this time we are working in the format of the night watch and topic discussion platform.

the discussion we have chosen today is the secrets of kyiv gold that returned to ukraine, and one of the main secrets of these treasures and russia's desire to get it is the legend that whoever owns kyiv gold controls and owns crimea, we will talk about this, with me is my colleague serhii morgun, journalist of tsn, i am yevhen plinskyi, and oksana is a guest with us. fanti is a leading researcher at the treasury of the national museum of the history of ukraine, a member of the union of archaeologists of ukraine. no longer a member of the union, but these are the details. ok, not a union member. thank you, ms. oksano, for visiting us. i think that the conversation will be interesting, because everything related to secrets and treasures is always interesting to ukrainians, especially now that they have returned to ukraine, so the conversation will be interesting. let's start.

so, let's start with the fact that, in addition to the news that the treasures have arrived in ukraine, first of all, society has not seen them yet, and we understand that you are already carrying out some kind of identification, inspection of them there, we will ask for details, in what condition they came back, but first i want to understand what came to us there, and because in addition to the fact that the treasures have returned, we are many... what is not known actually, people usually discuss it, they have such a collective image skivske gold, but what is this collection, to end, probably not everyone understands either, or someone who has not followed our topic, please explain, because as far as we know, skivsk gold, it covers not only skivsk, but also the sermatian period, there is a little hunnic there, it is not only about gold, but also about there wooden things or ceramics, tell us, well, in the ukrainian zami, the name "skiv gold" took root, while in the world zami, it was crimean collections or...

crimean treasures, and this is the second name, it is more accurate, because in fact these are things that were found during excavations mainly in the crimea, and they represent various cultures. there is actually no skov culture among these things, there is late skov culture, this is a completely separate topic, there are sarmatian things, hunnic, gothic and of course ancient greek, because the ancient greeks lived on in the territories of the crimea and not only the crimea in ukraine, and it was precisely these peoples who used these things, regardless of whether gold finds prevail or not, because we usually see in the photo that for the first time, although they are silver, there are things with even of course different. there are really a lot of thread materials and gold, because the late scythians, sarmatians , sarmatian znad, they put a large amount of gold in their burials, because they had such a tradition, we do not know exactly why, well, that is, there are only some scientific hypotheses about this , but this fact, and it was in these burials that there were,

the finds from which were presented at this exhibition, there were exactly such burials of noble persons who lined their clothes with gold plates, who wore various ornaments. and they could also have some amulets in gold frames, that is , gold is really present there, so the truth is that it is gold, but a large number of things, especially large ones, are stone, stone sculpture, various stelae burial places, that is, what a modern person understands as a tombstone, and even then they are ancient the greeks, for example, had such a tradition of placing tombstones over the buried dead in their memory, sometimes they could be signed, that is, to whom this or that burial belonged, and there are quite a lot of such stone... things, they are large, this is the heaviest part of the collection, besides there is also a tree, which is 2.5 tons, when the news was reported by the customs there, 2.5 tons of treasures went to ukraine, we see pictures of gold and think that they were usually weighed with a tare

the very containers in which they were transported, that is, more a discount should be given for this, of course there is not so much gold there, most of the gold products are extremely miniature and very, very light. well, just as we were demonstrating while you were talking, now the audience can see that they are in these boxes, they have arrived, i understand that they were just showing the gold jewelry, the golden part of these treasures, to the journalists, as long as this video comes to the fore , we can answer questions, earlier information was published in zmi, well, in general , there were conversations that the first thing we can do is to see no sooner than january 22, actually before the day of the cathedral, you have already inspected them, there are already certain proces. for that in what condition, when we can still see, maybe right away? of course, i cannot say the exact dates now, in my opinion, the knowledge of the person who will prepare this exhibition for the future, if there is a desire to see as many items as possible from this collection, then this is a matter of a long time,

that is, it is at least many months of preparation. because part of things, despite the fact that there are really a lot of things it is in very good condition, we have bought it. part needs restoration, restoration is a long process, plus the very moment of installing the same ceilings, a special stand must be made separately for each of them, and of course the question of safety, i.e. what time is best to display so that visitors are not harmed, well and of course to preserve the objects themselves, all this is a complex, complex issue, so i cannot name the exact terms, but our museum is certainly very interested in showing this exhibition in all its beauty. and till things, we plan to slightly change the perspective of the presentation, it will not only be a story about who these things belonged to, but also a story about the exhibition itself, its history, and of course there is such an idea to also present the issue of crimean monuments, crimean archeology in the current time, during

the occupation, what happened to the archaeological sites, and where did this legend come from then, that this is gold from skov, or how it was formed, well, for example, right now in the screen saver of your video, yes... gold is present pectoral from the skivsky korgan and often journalists illustrate this collection with this one a photograph, well, although not a pectoral , there was no copy of it at this exhibition , and we repeated about it many times, but well, that’s how it works, i don’t know, probably human fantasy, well, actually, it’s just one of the brightest examples of finds and even more so from the kyiv era and into the museum of historical values, properly preserved, the treasury of the national museum of the history of ukraine, that is the new name now. and in fact, we visited pectoral there several times as journalists, there is, well, what is visible, you can come and see it for any citizen, it is a good one a replica, if correct, it is a copy , it is a copy, since the 21st year our museum held an exhibition dedicated to the study of the mound where the pectoral was found,

the exhibition was called the pectoral find of the century, and for a year the original was exhibited there, without looking to martial law, despite all the threats, but of course, after a full-scale invasion, we cannot afford such risks, and in general, most of the permanent exposition is what was constantly present in the museum, unfortunately, we had to evacuate... and now we only have temporary exhibitions, which we are ready to pack every day, if there is such a need, when you said about pectoral, i remembered, if i am not mistaken, that it is forbidden to export pectoral outside the country, that is why she could not visit even in these countries, in the 90s , there was such a document, the order of the ministry of culture there seems to be a decision of the cabinet of ministers for execution, it is considered so valuable that it cannot be exported outside the country, i remember... in the marathon, when we discussed live this topic, it turned out that we

still had some old soviet documents, according to which, in the event of war, all these treasures had to be exported to russia beyond the borders of the urals, and ukraine changed these documents, because it was complete, this truth? well, as far as i know, during the second world war , protocols were most likely developed, some kind of evacuation, because part of the museum was evacuated, a large part of the collections, and it seems that nothing has been changed since then. well , at least i don't know, there were no changes, no need, but you can, as a historian explain why russia hunts these treasures so much, why they are important for them? we said at the beginning of the broadcast that there is such a legend that whoever owns them controls crimea, well, but we understand that this is still a legend from the point of view of the interests of russia, why do they need these stone statues so much, these are some golden petals, well... i understand that the question is not about gold and not about money, well, of course, this is my evaluation, i cannot imagine

what is in the minds of people who make a decision to attack a neighboring country and capture and to destroy the population, but as for me, well, if you look at other similar precedents, it seems to me that it is characteristic of many authoritarian regimes to justify their actions with some kind of historical basis, and this, in principle , existed in many states throughout the entire period. that they have to somehow legitimize their actions, and this is what i previously observed for myself even in russian science, but more usually in the statements of politicians, is that they claimed the territory of our country, on the basis of the heritage of russia, that is what kyiv mother russian cities, that's all, and that was an excuse, but nowadays that's what i hear even among museum workers, in particular. the rector of the state hermitage that the ancient heritage, ancient - is precisely the time when the scythians also lived in these

areas, and of course, this is a combination of the eurasian steppe, where various nomads lived, but for some reason they are all called scythians, although in written sources these are different peoples and we know it, it is their names, we know that they were very different, but this is the desire to unite this entire massif under one and to declare that it is all the same, and therefore we have the right to it. it is obvious that this is illogical, unfair, but it seems to me that this is the reason, and of course it is the attractiveness of things on the pectoral that you can look at for hours, and it is obvious that people with an unhealthy, painful desire to capture everything, when the desire for this constant comes out to steal and slightly change the concept of history, that we also trace our historical lineage and so on, although in fact the skov gold already existed there, and russia for another thousand years. no one knew and on swamp frogs croaked, tell me what then, this is actually a story related to this topic with

the activation of excavations in the territory of the crimea now, you said in one of the interviews that usually when there could be five or six places where is conducting excavations, now they have maybe 15 places there, that is, they have become very active, they have scaled up, so the point is that before any large- scale construction works, it is necessary to conduct archaeological research, and since you probably... you know, in the crimea carried out large-scale infrastructure projects, this is the construction of roads , this is what they needed if it was a military necessity, but in addition to this there was this nuance about chersonesus, where new buildings began to be erected on the grounds of the ancient monument, purely to proclaim that look, we are here now let's develop a culture for you in the crimea, i don't know, and this is precisely because of the fact that large layers of land are being destroyed, according to the law they need to be examined and researched, and since the crimea lived in the crimea, as well as on the territory

of ukraine, for quite a long time diverse population, then there remained an extraordinary one the number of monuments, and such , well, stakhanivsky, i don’t know how else to call them paces, to explore them, in my opinion, is simply a crime, well, i also wanted to ask if they will manage to legitimize the lemmas, actually, well, the finds, that is, the territory occupied, even if they find something, take it home, even if scientists do it. certified correctly, but the international community can perceive it as a russian find or not, because the territories are legally ukrainian, i hope that such a legitimization will not happen. because by they violate all international norms as much as possible, that with these things that they find there, it becomes unknown, and actually the very nature of these works, well, according to international law, as far as i know, of course, i am not a lawyer, but i was interested in what if part of the territory of the country is occupied, then rescue archaeological excavations are allowed there

only with the participation of actual specialists with the permission of the country that was occupied by the government of ukraine, well , of course, which... which does not happen, it's just robbery, well, that's what it's called there archaeological excavations, maybe the methodology is followed there, but from the point of view of justice, logic, ethics, it's all robbery. i also remembered, i wanted to ask about the thefts, what they excavate, take away, we don't know what is there, what condition it is in, etc., that is, even what they can publish in their scientific works, this absolutely, well , inexhaustible limited information. to call black archaeologists for a and another, the other side of theft is that on the territory of the occupied territory, well, the first thing that comes to mind there were talks about the melitopol museum, there were about 100 pieces, what can be attributed to the gold of skov, there were artifacts, in fact, how many of these were also stolen, do you know, well, most of this collection was also

stored in kyiv, but before that as ms. oxano, you will answer, we will take a small break for our viewers a few. we will return to this important and interesting topic. chevrons approaching victory. time to attack and fight back. convert yours. for weapons. join our fighters of the national rage police brigade. you can fill out a questionnaire fill out on the nabir npgo website or by calling 097 725-25-13. thanks to them, minefields become offensive routes.

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continues the broadcast, the night watch project is with you and today with oksana lifantiy. as a leading employee of the treasury of the national museum of the history of ukraine, we are talking about skivsk gold, but as we already found out in the first part of the program, it is not so much skivsk gold , but crimean treasures, it is correct to say, yes, because there is not so much gold there, but on it more than anything, we pay attention to what else is in this, in these treasures, we will definitely talk later, but we ended the first part with the question of what takes place in melitopol. where the occupiers started excavations, where they are looting ukrainian museums, serhiy, let's continue this topic, i will formulate it briefly, from this museum exhibits related to the skov gold or the period, the skov property, that's what it's called, actually the conversation was, well i don't know for sure, but there are about a hundred artifacts there, smaller, larger, it doesn't matter , among them the decoration, we will now have the opportunity

to see her diadem, maybe it is not from skov, you will already fix it, actually, as many as you could ... steal another one, which has already been found russians in the occupied territories? well, of course i can't answer with any specific figures, i don't know these facts, but i can what i saw from the news and the media and what i know about storage in museums, unfortunately, they took out from the kherson museum of local history a larger part of the exposition and there were gold things that can be considered related to the skov culture. and why did i talk about the melitopol barrow more than once, and this is in the melitopol museum of local history, where a small part of the collection of the well-known melitopol korgan, most of the things. of this research since 954, they were handed over to us for safekeeping in the treasury, and there it actually still belongs to the collection and is well preserved, but a small

part, which began there with a complex history of research and local archaeologists first investigated, then they realized that they could not cope with the scale of the work and called kyiv archaeologists, and this is exactly what they first examined remained in the local museum, and unfortunately, this is how we know that... their the director and employees of the museum tried to hide them in the basements , they did not have time to bring them out, and actually the collaborators and occupiers took these things, and as for the diadem that was shown on the screen, it is a hun diadem, there are very few such things, and it was really very cool, such a bright archaeological thing , from the collection of this museum, as far as i know, they were taken out, i don't know where, there was news. about the fact that the russian army slipped through, they were allegedly stored in the crimea, but where will these things go, that is, we do not even know where they are actually located, in what conditions they are

are kept, the fact is that when it is pure gold, well, it does not require special conditions in principle, and if it is gold, for example , on a base on a bronze base, then bronze can corrode, for all these things they are fragile, they must be protected , well, museums and museum workers exist for this. given the fact that there is no control , well, conditionally, someone can steal these things, or i just don’t know what to do with them and what, how to look for them, where to look for them, this tiara itself, i went in, looked for some on youtube videos, and it turns out that the museum in melitopol was opened by the occupiers and even showed that we found how such bad ukrainians were hiding them somewhere there, and they showed some petals, there are completely isolated cases, this is the actual photo of how the mound was excavated, and already after them there will be a diadem, if we see it now, and there is no diadem among what they allegedly found and put on display again, that is, where it is unknown, and from here again this

question arises, how should we directly fight in order not to it was exported, it was not stolen, because the most important ones, well, well, i don’t know, maybe it’s possible to estimate what is most important, what is not, a small petal or a pectoral, but still when it is big, it seems that it is one of the most important ones, the russians stole more than once, you mentioned ? something about grebin, they mentioned about one who is in russia, we also have an illustration, now we will see the amphora, it is actually not gold, it is silver, and about 10 kg, if i am not mistaken, and something else i wanted, but at night, one thing of the most valuable swords in such scabbards, gilded, that's all, but actually, this is an amphora from chortomlytskyi barrow, it was a barrow located on the territory of dnipropetrovsk region, it was studied back in the 19th century, it is... this is the golden ridge, a very unique thing from the solokha barrow, it is, by the way, from our museum's collection, well, in general, i want here some photos of it , which seemed to me to be

the most remarkable among the finds from the kiev period, but what about grebin, what amfura, they were taken to russia, right? yes, exported to russia, it was a systematic export of valuables, a specially created imperial archaeological commission worked, which was allocated funds from the state treasury, i don't know, and... and she systematically hired archaeologists, paid them money for research, and the best objects from the research were transported mainly to leading museums, well, in particular to the hermitage, then the gym could also get into various other institutions, and i was very interested in the information that in the collection that was returned to ukraine there were some ancient chinese wooden caskets, when you talked about the fact that there is bronze, it is difficult to store it, i was thinking about ayak wood ? well , keep, how did they live so long? so many centuries, and even more, and when i was preparing for the broadcast, i began to try, well, to look

for information on how chinese things could appear in ukraine in general, and it turned out that ukraine passed, in particular the crimea and the south of ukraine, in the fourth century bc ad, in the second, in the second, in the fourth , the chinese silk road passed here, and there was in the crimea, i already felt like i was on the exam for... i stop telling my version, we will listen to you, how chinese wooden caskets appeared here and whether the silk road really passed here chinese, there has been a long-standing debate about the silk road, indeed some researchers insist that there was some permanent trade route, and that's the point, there is such a version, but it is not. accepted by all, it cannot be ruled out simply because of the presence of some indirect trade relations, here is not such an established route, and really things, the fact is that

the whole... they are not the only things that were made in china, but found on the territory of ukraine . for example, in the collection of the treasury there are such sarmatian burials, mirrors from hieroglyphs, chinese, and found on the territory of donetsk region. yes, that is, these are people in ancient times, they were normal people, they traded, traveled many kilometers. and here the main thing is that it turns out that in those days, we were not at all on the uzbek side of the history of civilization. or you could buy a chinese mirror in donetsk or i'm sorry if you were nailed, that is, there are many such things, but how to store them in relation to these caskets or caskets, this is a particularly valuable find, because they were found in a rather bad condition, they were remnants, small fragments with paintings, colored paints and with the remains of varnish, and it was thanks to... the actual

initiative of the archaeologists who studied them, crimean, ukrainian archaeologists, that they managed to come into contact with the japanese restorers who undertook such things, because far from any restorer can understand what to do with it, and they restored them to a pretty good condition, which means that they can now be displayed, because such a brittle 2-year-old tree, it is unfortunately very brittle, it is not... you can always display it like that in the window, them now it is possible with compliance with the temperature conditions , of course, and this is precisely one point of their interest, well, and the second point is that, as far as i know, these caskets, caskets for jewelry are considered the most western such import, actually in the form of trees of their caskets, that is, at the moment , specialist researchers in this topic say that this is exactly so far to the west of

china, it was the first time that it was found exactly... crimea and further west such things are not known, these were the first steps of aliexpress , but again you see, it shows that, for aliexpress , the items are extremely high-quality, that is, it is already some kind of craft production, so much and more than 200 years old, this once again confirms how important it was to create this precedent for the return of jewelry to ukraine, because as far as i know, the russians initiated the legal process, well, like with hands, let's say occupied ukrainian administrations. museums on the territory of the crimea, and in fact, not so much the court itself was proceeding in substance, as the appeals were considered, there seems to have been a decision in the 16th year . that they are demanding to return to russia, they said that we are just a crimean museum, we are even a ukrainian museum, just quietly hand it over to us, because it should belong to us, i have a question on the body of this, which has occurred to me several times, but i don’t have it anywhere i couldn’t find how it happened to spectoral that it wasn’t taken out,

it’s... after all, in soviet times, you could invent this well-known scheme: we will restore it somewhere in russia, and then not return it, how it was saved, do you know, well, at least a little, well, as far as i know, of course some official documents regarding the wishes of certain museums to have this in their collection have not been preserved, at the level of transmission, i know that the hermitage supposedly had a desire to have such an item in its collection, but since at that time there was already a museum of historical jewels, now the treasury of the national museum of history. country, then there were no such bureaucratic reasons to say that you have no conditions for preservation, because earlier it was under the soviet union, and this was one of the key ones, you have no conditions for preservation, so we will preserve it, yes, there was already a specialized museum with restorers, with specialists, and plus , of course, these were the achievements of ukrainian archaeologists, who insisted, explained to the party members of the ukrainian ussr that it was important to leave it in ukraine, and so it happened that

she just... well, at least from the bureaucratic point of view , there were no obstacles for this, but from the point of view of this political component, and here i think, it was the efforts of the archaeologists, and what other interesting exhibits are in the collection that returned, there is more 500 names, we already know about caskets, we know about stone statues, what else is so interesting, what can be, what can be talked about and what can be looked at and researched. personally, i was very impressed, these are the details of wooden dishes, well , it sounds very not very bright, but these are real wooden things decorated with animal figurines, it looks very impressive, how skillful the master woodcarver was and i am especially impressed, that these things were preserved because the walls of these vessels are extremely thin, but it is wonderful that they made it to...