all these questions were also asked of russia, but it is impossible to ask russia, in the sense that it is impossible to somehow expect that, say, the hermitage will suddenly show such self-awareness and start decolonization work with its own collection, right? therefore, well, not because of that, but partly within the framework of this general process, the same questions were asked by the western european american museum. you remember, i promised to quote olesya khromaychuk, director of the ukrainian institute. in london, and she actually wrote for the german magazine spiegel a year ago, i will quote the quote and ask you, is it already, is it already outdated, is it no longer relevant, or at least not as relevant as it was a year ago. olesya writes: every trip to a gallery or museum in london with exhibits of art or cinema from the ussr reveals a deliberate or simply lazy interpretation of the region as a single, infinite russia. they call jewish,

belarusian or ukrainian art russian without any problems, it is very rare when a ukrainian is not called a russian, we can say that this year something has happened, some understanding has taken place and that some work has taken place internal, i would say, i am very, very similar, i agree with olesia khormaychuk in this quote, this is exactly the state of affairs, let's say for 2021 100%, but... there has been an awareness of this as a problem, there has not yet been any really very noticeable, super notable work, but this is recognized as a problem in the specialist community, we'll just have to see if this actually leads to any serious revision, but i already see it as a pretty big step to be honest. but even

more me than, than events in individual museums, er, this congress that i mentioned earlier makes me happy, because these are scientists, and their work, their books, and the way they teach their students, after some period of time, affects museums in a much more fundamental way, because all these people , who study at universities, then work in these museums, this seems to me to be such a strategic big process that has started to move. in the right direction, and i can’t avoid the subject of the boycott of russian culture, boycott or cancel, you are one of the authors of the manifesto of ukrainian cultural institutes, institutions, in particular the artistic arsenal and the ukrainian institute, and the manifesto, which was written in the early days of march 2022, if i remember correctly, in which you

called for a boycott of russian culture in order not to increase the social and cultural capital of russia and not to help hide russian crimes please tell me, again from today's point of view, how these demands worked in practice, how realistic it turned out to be to fulfill these demands that you voiced in this manifesto? well, we are immediately understood, this letter was published such a manifesto on march 1, 20. of the second year and it was immediately clear that these are such maximum, very maximalist demands from the point of view of some western institution unprecedented, but many things happened, for example, one of our such, it is difficult to say , that it is a demand , because you can, it is more often a call , because you cannot always demand something from an institution in country x, but it is a serious call, so, for example, it has become not... worth

having in your supervisors councils or among sponsors of representatives of russian capital or the russian state, which used to happen everywhere in many huge institutions, british and other american, so that, but it became clear quite quickly, instead it turned out to be very difficult for all these institutions for... the call not to cooperate with the russian artists who either support the russian regime, of course, or are not opposed to it, so this lens and sensitivity that we have when we can recognize and understand the russian imperial discourse is a consequence of our terrible experience with russia, we recognize the nuances, we know when it happens, er, it is very often not recognized at all by ours. zawi in other countries,

not understanding at all where this so-and-so aggressive so-and-so is. the word aggressive from the word aggressor, i mean this view, imperial, with this it is much more difficult, it requires a million nuances, it always puts ukrainians in a very difficult position, because i still believe that there are honest russian intellectuals and cultural figures , maybe we don't we know everything, in the sense of those who review their own empire, their own imperial position. are ready to somehow look at it with great criticality, that is, i always remain an optimist, but it

is impossible to do this research every time with regard to each of your russian visas for ukrainian institutions, cultural figures, this means that ukrainians cannot really afford to be somehow together in one the scene with the russians. which is terribly difficult to explain in different institutions, at some point, i think it was sofia andrakhovich, who put forward such an argument, after dozens of discussions where she explained with rational arguments why she cannot perform on the same stage with a russian writer, she resorted to an emotional argument and said that i can't, it hurts me, i and this argument turned out to be acceptable, so please tell us whether we are not becoming, in fact, this persistence of ours and a certain misunderstanding, both on the part of the organizers of some festivals, and a certain misunderstanding of our refusals, but does this not make us in the eyes western people, well, some

if not toxic, then somehow too radical or intolerable, or hysterics like that, it definitely, definitely does, and here it seems to me that we have it. with such tasks, as i imagine, when we, when we make this decision regarding interaction or not interaction with people from russia or representatives of russian culture. the first, as it seems to me, our big task is the separation, that is, the intellectual and cultural separation of ukraine from russia. not so long ago , ukraine was in very close contact with russia, even those, let's say, even on the writing scene, on the literary scene, there are really people who... are now the pillars of the ukrainian literary scene, who wrote in russian, were published in russia, recently received russian prizes, these people carried out a radical act of separation, from uniting myself from the russian scene, i have

a lot of respect for it, and i think this is exactly what does the same thing, you can say about many artists, even artists of my generation and younger than my generation, it had greatness. well, the number of very close, friendly, professional, economic ties with the russian art scene, and many of them are making this separation, or have already made it, it is happening. why is this important? because we, otherwise, unfortunately, in connection with russia, we always get into such a dangerous situation for us, russia acts as an aggressor even in the... cultural field, yes, so we simply have to disconnect at some point , and this, unfortunately, the price of this can be such, this kind of our somewhat emotional behavior, right? the second task, it seems to me, is very important, it is the advocacy of ukraine for the whole world, etc

by advocacy, i mean telling about myself on my behalf, what kind of society we are, what our history is, what we can do, what we can bring to the common cultural. the scene here is a little different then you act, well, actually speaking, then in this part of the task it is much more difficult not to interact with the russians, and it seems to me that you have to make this decision each time depending on the circumstances, and here is the third important task - it is how to say it, this is such a correction of the idea of... the culture of eastern europe in general, including all this russian obshor, in some international science, or, as we said in international institutions, and in museums, this is the cure of some kind of blinding of russian

culture, which did not allow for centuries, if not decades, to see other cultures as a whole region, and here it is... related to this call to institutions, for example, european ones, to give up russian culture for a while, because the temporary rejection of russian culture'. presentation, for example, ugh, eh, should help to cure this blindness, but you, i read your text is wonderful about the cure for this, particularly blindness, and you talk wonderfully about how this is an extremely subtle thing, and so very here so ethical is a thing that we limit that we us, with which we need to be very careful about, i would like you to think about it, so what? here for us, in this, there is an opportunity

to represent ourselves in this way, what is the subtle point here that we need to pay attention to? well, it seems to me a bit dangerous and unreasonable to tell our visas in other countries, stop being interested in russian culture, be interested in ukrainian instead, well , first of all, you can't tell people if there are people working in the institutions, they have them. they're interested in something, they're interested in, say , avant-garde or baroque, and they 're interested in something, you can't tell them, stop being interested in that, here's something else, it can't work like that with a person, secondly, it sounds like for many, i have heard this more than once from different interlocutors, they read it a little bit as our insidiousness, as an attempt to push sit down, yes, in such er... in such everyday terms, and we

are not talking about that at all, ukrainian culture does not need this, we have really great phenomena, like lesia the ukrainian woman, let's say historically, or the modern ukrainian cultural scene is very interesting, but we can't careless handling of words and appeals can lead to such a perception, we have to be careful with it somehow. it seems to me, and now while we are in this field, let me ask you how generally we have behaved in the last two years, how is present, here i am, for example, from some of our friends, artists, i also heard that we sometimes behave or give the impression that we are victims and heroes, and everything belongs to us, have you witnessed something like you? plays, you know, i don't have such, such, such a reservation, i think there is one thing

that we have to admit to ourselves, we are going through an experience on an incredible scale, dramatic, which is equally out of proportion to the western experience, and actually, they don't see it the way we do, yes, of course, they see it differently, but this is us we really have... unique knowledge, we see some unique things, no matter how tragic, we, only we can understand it, only we, do you remember how after the retreat, after the russians were pushed back from near kyiv, the first an event we did at the art arsenal, it was a discussion called our great migration, it took place in may 22nd, the date of the book arsenal, and this is our great migration, that's exactly what it was, it was the planned theme of the book... arsenal, it was planned in the fall of the 21st year, and suddenly in the 22nd year it became

tragic way is very relevant , more relevant than we thought, and then we got together and started talking about our experience of this resettlement that happened to us, no one but the ukrainians themselves could understand it at that moment, it was an absolutely fantastic conversation, and i think it was badly needed at this point, so... what i'm trying to say is that there are really experiences that only we can, where only we can speak in the first person, and let's say like extreme experiences of violence or something like that things, or such a mass resettlement, it is important for the whole world, because in fact there are wars and violence in many places in the world, we have something to say about it, all the previous decades, as long as i can remember. in professional terms , we ukrainians were such students who should have listened to slightly smarter people and

added something to the conversation, if they were talented enough, yes, and here it seems to me, in my professional experience, probably the first time i saw such a moment when we have no only an incredible experience, because we are an incredible experience we had before that, we didn't know how to understand it ourselves and talk about it and be aware of it... i am asking for the courage to speak about it with sufficient confidence, and sufficient education, education that allows you to speak in terms that will be understood in other places. in other countries, in these world museums, and this is probably the first time in a long time that we have built this generation of at least some weak institutions, and people, even more importantly, who are able to speak on their own behalf, with their own voice about their incredible experience, this gives you a real

a very strong feeling of such self-empowerment, which can naturally fall into naïve arrogance at times, with this, it is necessary to be vigilant and not allow oneself to fall into it. i remember, i remember another article this time by oksana zabushko, this is an article from the 1990s, i remember, i forgot what it was called, but oksana was already talking about, talking about our inability to speak for the world, and she mentioned in some... meeting together in the association of writers of ukraine, at that time, so with western people, where one writer she said, do you know ours, well, for example , shevelyov there, and when the foreigners said no, they said now, it’s visible, and oksana zabushko says that it’s like she was there somewhere in the carpathian village, and everyone asked her, and

you you know the city man from zamagorov, you don't know the city man from zamagorov, that is, yes, that... nokogorov, who is very, very familiar, close and terribly close to us, may be a complete stranger, and it is necessary to somehow successfully tell the world about him. we don't have much time left, 10 minutes, i want to ask you about something, you said that you an optimist, an optimist, and you think that among ukrainian intellectuals there are people who can re-think... re-imagined russia, yes , they re-thought the russian imperial framework, and if i could ask you, maybe you could name a few such people , but i have one such person, and even two russians whom i should name, but let 's start with the names, well, you know, this is difficult,

because i think that often russian intellectuals are still. themselves have a huge blind spot , despite everything, even these well-intentioned people have a huge blind spot, where they it is difficult to see myself precisely from these imperial positions, however, i am such an even slightly utopian utopian optimist, it always seems to me that everything is not as bad as it seems, and you are right, i will honestly say, sometimes yes, sometimes i i also don't believe that everything is very... good and that everything is very bad, so there is one figure who seems to me to be a good example, this is the russian historian, tetyana tairova yakovleva, who, it seems to me , conscientiously researches the legacy of the hittman , that she learned the ukrainian language, this is also rare

happens, which is the same at first, it still seems to me. before the russian invasion, she repeatedly spoke on russian television, debunking the myths that putin operated, and it was precisely from the position of such conscientious introspection, i do not know how it will be further, let's say in her work, at this moment she seems to me to be one of those figures that give me hope, but there are other historical examples not in russia. which simply show that such work takes time, it is the polish rethinking of its imperial heritage, and we know that the poles it was done in the circle of the hedroits and publishers , culture in paris, it lasted for several decades, it was the 50s, 60s,

70s, it was in this circle that the term shot revival was born, for example, yes, and it was ... such underwater work, a lot of people did not know anything about it, so i still have this hope that maybe there is some kind of underwater work that we do not see among the russians either, i remember even in the book of the english historian tony judd, in one of his books, it seems in this book, which she wrote together with timothy snyder, there is a passage where tony jatro. as he studied the history of the post-war history of france and gives the example of hedroitsa, it was during this period that hedroitsi worked in france, and hedroitsa is there. a huge figure now for ukrainian-polish, let's say, relations, and someone asked hidroits if he was ever in contact, at all familiar with -

jean-paul sartre, this is the same period, and hidroits answered: no, they are nothing will understand, that is, it was super concentrated, imperceptible to such a mainstream, generally intellectual of the french robot, although this happened precisely in paris, well, this is also such an example for me, for us ukrainians, still not to lose this hope, to be patient, and for me , i would say that any conscientious russian intellectual should, at least learn about this case. and the last question, where is your red line, in general, how would you define it for yourself, ah... participation in joint events, not even on the same site, but in joint events, for example, at festivals with russians, there is no

uniformity in ukrainian society and in environment and even in the environment of ukrainians there are different positions and there are many conflicts regarding this, what do you think about it? i would say that we, as an artistic arsenal, do not imagine the possibility of presenting russian. my artist in some of our projects, whether in ukraine or abroad, or this is an easy example, i am currently trying so, so, as it becomes more complicated, i do not think that i could personally participate on one stage, in particular because , which i think every such, every such case needs just an almost detective analysis. the positions of your visavi is a lot of work, which with the challenges that war brings us, we cannot afford, well, few of us,

yes, so it seems to me a rational position of this pause in these relations, but i think that if i had to express an opinion about someone's decision about such. participation, then here you have to take such a cold position, with a hot head, not to try not to condemn immediately, but to understand the arguments, that is, i think that we have to to tell my compatriots and people from our cultural scene, to give what is called in english, i don't even know if this concept is in ukrainian, benefits of the doubts, when you give a well-founded sadness. in a word, but on the other hand, today i don't blame you one way or another . i just read your post where you talk about the fact that

the new yorker came out with such a statement about the fact that the whole society, not only in ukraine, that's how we talked about ukrainian in that, yes, and what is the world at all, they wrote emotionally and... emotionally and mentally exhausted, yes, since everyone is tired right now, and we are a part, the most tired part of a tired world, will it not happen that this zeal of ours, well, let's call it that, yes, let's call it zeal, or our principledness will begin to annoy the people in the weary world so much that they will regard us as... that the good old world is impossible for them, it may be, it may be, and this again again shows how we have

to argue, but i still don't see why we should be accused of let's say we don't want to participate in something together with russian visas, we are still free people, well, it's all together, it's both the fact that we don't want on the platforms and the fact that we continue to resist aggression, right? is this generally the ukrainian position? that it is already in many places, not everywhere, but in many places it has simply already become such a status quo that, okay, ukrainians will surely do this, eh, that is , it does not cause such fanfare and such irritation, which does not mean that it is not, will not change, that is, it seems to me that we are already in some way the community has declared that there are things that are not acceptable to us. the other thing is that in ukraine, the discussion should continue and is starting, because some new texts appear, or soon will appear, and so on, the discussion about this should continue.

er, what are we, in general, what is our, er, how, what is our attitude to the russian cultural scene, to russian culture, and we must accept , it seems to me that there will not be one position, there will be different positions, this there will be a whole spectrum, they will have some justification, it is much more important that we can discuss all this among ourselves, and believe that very, that is, i am very committed to... i am sure of this, that we must believe that the arguments of our visavi people, who together make this ukrainian culture, that these are arguments that come from good intentions, someone can do something better, worse, everything happens, but this conversation must be based on the fact that we have some common goal of creating our culture, and then this discussion is possible, it simply must.

take place and take place for a long time, this conversation will take place for a long time. thanks les, unfortunately we ran out of time with you, i was very interested, this conversation was interesting, thank you, thank you, olesya ostrovska, cultural manager, director of the art arsenal, was a guest of the own names program. see you next week, stay tuned. tingling and crawling sensations arise spontaneously and disturb you. the doolgit antineuralgia complex helps to normalize the functioning of the nervous system. dolgit antineuralgia helps to return to usual activities without tingling and numbness in the limbs. dolgit capsules antineuralgia. your help nervous system. there are discounts on mefeminka. 10%

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