without ukraine glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program. my name is serhiy rudenko, i congratulate everyone and wish everyone good health. for the next two hours, we will talk about ukraine, the world, the war, and our victory. today in the program. they listen to their own or to others. wiretapping in the office. what is known about this and how does the head himself react: there were no problems, but now there will be, what do putin's new threats to finland and nato countries mean, and what should the alliance prepare for? blockade of the border to the polish transporters joined the farmers, what are their demands and how to find them in the end compromise? we will talk about this and other things during the next hour with our guests, with politician olegombachuk and others. in the second part

of our program, which will start in an hour, the political science club: we will have political scientists viktor boberenko, ihor reiterovych and volodymyr fesenko. however, before starting our big conversation, let's watch a video of how military counter-intelligence officers of the security service of ukraine celebrated their professional holiday with fireworks at the positions of the occupiers, which our soldiers distribute. explosive gifts to russians on the hottest destinations, just in the last month , 93 enemy targets were hit by their forces, let's see.

friends, for those who are currently watching us live on youtube, please like this video and also subscribe to our page. in addition, in the course of this program , we are conducting a survey, we are asking you today, do you think the current system of mobilization is fair? yes, no , please vote on youtube, it's pretty simple to vote there, yes or no, or you can leave your own opinion. under this video in the comments, if you are sitting in front of the tv, then you can pick up the phone and vote if you think the current mobilization system is fair (0800-211-381), no 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free, call, at the end of the program we will sum up this voting, and we have the first guest on the call, this is oleg rybachuk, a member of the public.

ball, former vice-prime minister for european integration and former head of president yushchenko's secretariat, mr. olezh, i congratulate you and i am glad to see you on our air. congratulations navzay. come on, mr. oleg, let's start our conversation with the scandal, because the information that the premises where the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine valery zaluzhnyi was supposed to work was spied on by some eavesdropping devices. all the same, it leads to the fact that this is a scandal, what zaluzhny himself says, it is very important, let’s listen, that is, it is not your permanent one, but we understand it that way, she was not a worker, i work, and in one of them, i it hasn't been there for a long time, but i checked not only with me, it's there now, i'm sorry, but this could mean that in to the general staff itself, that is, there had to be someone who...

we haven't worked with souls for a long time, yes, how do you consider it, well, how, like war, that is, it is one of the aspects of waging war, anything can happen. the investigation will prove, that is, it was the office where you were supposed to go the day before today, i was supposed to go there at 7 o'clock in the morning, and why after that, mr. olezh, the topic of wiretapping the offices of high-ranking ukrainian officials, in principle, this is not a new topic, it exists, if not 30 years, then 25, that's for sure, then transcripts of these auditions or even audio recordings appear, so in relation to... concerns in relation to the tyrant, there is a war, the head of the armed forces of ukraine, someone is trying to listen to his office, whether it is his own or someone else's, it is still unclear. in your opinion, will the sbu give a clear answer to those who still wanted to listen diligently? well, our sbu is not

an independent body, therefore, and depending on what will be there internally. political schedules, there will be a corresponding assessment, i really hope that it will be objective, impartial, but my political experience tells me that this is not the case, you and i are already on on previous programs, they discussed this topic of the conflict between the military and the political leadership there, which is either there or not, but it is being talked about in ukraine, and, unfortunately, it is already being talked about in the world, and the western media, so... the question such that in the background of this very discussion of disputes, or strained relations between the political leadership and the military, it makes us ask the question, really, who wanted

to listen, whether it is really external enemies, or whether it is internal political competition, and ... i answers i don't know, you've been in for a long time to the ukrainian authorities, how often have you encountered servants and servants, and is there any way to protect yourself from this, because we know how this big tape scandal ended for kuchma, when all the recordings that were made in his office from 1999 to 2000, before the disappearance of georii gonadz. murder of georgy gongadze, that all these recordings were later used, but 23 years have passed, and neither the one who recorded and who took responsibility for what he recorded, nor the one who was on those tapes and those who was on those films, did not bear responsibility, how

often have you seen it, and how much is this method of struggle or method of, let's say, finding a compromise with... those who are in power at the expense of these films, how, how often it was used in ukrainian politics? well, i have the impression that it has existed as long as ukrainian politics has existed, that is, i have not a single example of personal experience when i was shown there, and ukrainian businessmen demonstrated it, which is very interesting, ah, recordings of meetings are there any more conversations in the cabinet of ministers? during the time of kuchma, when he... yushchenko was only the prime minister, then it is clear that at that time kuchma and the national security council, they perceived yushchenko as a political opponent, and therefore all these special services worked against the actual ukrainian government, but i have and personal experience of such recordings, i

remember very well how i heard information about milnichenko's tapes, and the first thing i did then was that there were literally several of them. recordings , and on those recordings there were conversations of kuchma there with , for example, governor shcherbany , the governor of the city of sumy at that time, in my opinion, where he proposed, for example, to kuchma to give 20%, in my opinion, of the amount to khimprob, and the first thing i did was simply to call the head of the secretariat and ask if there were such decisions to transfer 20% of the alienation, because there was such a scheme that these were state ones. it was necessary to remove from there and and when i received an answer that such a decision was made, then the question of the authenticity of the films disappeared from my mind, if you compare what is said on the films and then see if there were appropriate actions and it matches, then understandable, but actually

we know that we have forgotten this topic , examinations, well, it’s easy, it lives a separate life of its own, what is the danger of such things with... now that we are now in a state of war, and in a state of war, when the head cannot to be sure that his office is not bugged. this is just a red, red alert, this is a real, real threat to national security, and who can play such games, well , counterintelligence should figure it out, but i repeat that, unfortunately, we have a security service, it is politically dependent and traditionally, and it depends on the street banking, it is not necessary, zelenskyi's surname must be mentioned there, there may be and... his advisers and his office are involved, and here i do not know, and especially i

imagine that in the background of public scandals like this information will be received by our partners in the west, i don't know either, but i think that you and i will see a publication in some new york times, washington post, where the topic of difficulties and contradictions in ukraine is constantly being discussed, and this topic undermines our capacity and undermines ours. opportunities, because now more than ever we need the unity of the west and we need support, such things undermine our chances, that is, the very fact, the possible fact of eavesdropping on the head of the armed forces of ukraine, undermines the trust of our western partners, because they are also used to working in the u.s. according to some protocol, and they do not want this information somewhere in... it went outside the office or the premises where the head of the armed forces of ukraine works, and they

also take care of these issues, because for them, well, it is important that this information does not reach, at least to the russians , right? well obviously it is absolutely obvious, although they have their own problems, there, for example, the head of, in my opinion, the special service of germany, just worked directly for russia and handed over a lot of sensitive documents to the russians, but now the question is not... about the germans, no about theirs, not about agents in their services, but about us, because it is about whether we are able to ensure the secrecy of information at the highest military level, at the level of the supreme commander-in-chief, these are simply unacceptable things, mr. oleg, i remember how viktor andriyovych yushchenko did not really want to go to presidents, as in principle the regime at that time or the team. leonid kuchma, well, they simply did everything to ensure that viktor andriyovych had no other chance than to become president, that is,

there was no other way out. we see how valery zaluzhny is now being pushed into politics, don't these two processes remind you, and at the same time yushchenko did not say that he wanted to become president, chornovil convinced him there, the late vyacheslav chornovil, that it was necessary to run for office in 1999, he refused to run for office then, later already, well... time came, and the situation simply forced viktor andriyuvych to bog down. can zaluzhny repeat the path of viktor yushchenko. i understand that now we are talking about the military, and it is not the time to talk about what is possible , but could the situation be repeated in something that there will simply be no other way out than to go into politics? well, certain, certain similarities, certain similarities for sure. example. i well remember how yushchenko's assistants were nervous at the national bank when he

was more popular than kuchma, than the president, i remember, i go into reception, and there are such domineering non-mourning faces, because the people who worked there, they perfectly understood that such popularity will not end well, and then president kuchma, he decided to destroy a political competitor in an original way, he hoped that by making yushchenko at... including all possible levers in order to undermine his work as prime minister, because literally three months later there was already a joint meeting of the cabinet of ministers and kuchma and kuchma there based on the report of the national security council in just three months of work, the new prime minister simply tore it to pieces, and it was clear that kuchma really hoped that it would be a political grave, but it didn't happen like that. but there are certain differences here, because after all, yushchenko , he, he was much more public due to

his work as the head of the national bank, due to the advocacy of monetary reform, he was a favorite of journalists, he, in the national bank, had all the deputies, that is, he had all the political connections and the main thing is that he had such a teacher, vadym hetman, who probably because of this they killed him, that he failed. to the presidency, but what is the problem here, because there it was even possible to somehow measure, because the head of the national bank, who conducts public...policy, it is still very close to politics, he works with the parliament, but if you take military, professional military, it is simply not related to public policy in any way, you cannot, you cannot measure it, how about square and green, if you, you cannot compare any ratings, because you are not you know, first of all, zaluzhnyk

openly demonstrates that he is not going to enter politics and... and unlike that yushchenko, who also said the same thing, but he was still a public person, the military is a slightly different category , but what is more similar here, well, in the stupidity of the authorities, there are all these andrews who whisper there, all those who walk around the president of any country and show that there is someone on the horizon brighter, more popular than you, and from here this very unhealthy atmosphere is created, but for... to compare the capabilities of these people , we currently have no basis , because at least zaluzhnyi should be interested in this, although i understand your question, if he is dried up, if some ermaks do something like posvinsky with him and try to tarnish his reputation, then every person has the right to self-defense, we already have an example of that

jerk who later tried to go into politics, the young man often... happens, he did not go into politics, but they are public, but in this case predict the scenario with it is difficult for the military, because there are a lot of military people, very popular, there is a demand for the military, there is trust in the military, and if a situation is created where the military will simply remain, as you said, with a broken trough, well, it is difficult to predict how it will end , but i can say for sure, it will end in nothing good for zelenskyi and his team. they will not win this duel here in any way, and all the more so since the latest sociology shows that over the last year the rating of zaluzhny fell much less, it is quite high, but this zaluzhnyi's rating of trust in the armed forces of ukraine, compared to zelenskyi's rating, because zelenskyi's rating fell by 20%, and

zaluzhnyi's rating by 12, well, there it is somewhere from 98 in zaluzhnyi 's to 88%, and in zelenskyi, it seems to be 86 and there, well, 70 or 68 somewhere approximately such numbers. you just understand why, why this question actually arises, because, well, it all looks very, well, everything that has been happening around zaluzhny for the last month and a half looks very strange, because there is some obsessive deputy who is constantly trying to him... get through social networks, she leads the parliamentary committee on national security and defense, one of the leaders, she is a person close to the office of the president of ukraine, no one touches her, and no one says that listen, well , in a country that is at war, you cannot do this to a general, a combat general , and you can’t do that,

you can’t snicker at a bad guy, what do you think, here’s the one... dinka, which, well, looks like trolling, well, in fact, it’s the destruction of the military command, it’s bullying, of the military command, in the conditions of the war, how to evaluate it, well, venislavsky touched her, he he spoke publicly as a representative of the president in the verkhovna rada, and simply said that such people should be fired from this position, and and... and and and they fired not her, but fired him literally on the second day, which tells me about the fact that it did not happen there without the vice president is just an obvious, obvious thing, who can make such personnel decisions, and the fact that it is good that we saw the statement of the minister of defense, who

took a photo with zaluzhny there, after the trip with the vice president, i'm talking about... so mocking washington, where you can see that there were certain conversations, and then lyarov came back and said that no one was going to fire zaluzha and even took a photo, but i did not see the president's statement and i did not see such a photo where instead of umerov, he stood with zaluzha the president and the president would talk about the fact that everything is fine, there are no problems, that they are working and that's all, but i did not see this and it did not happen. and does not happen, therefore, therefore, the problem, the problem is serious, and this problem worries, of course, those who, er, those who work with us for... victory, who, i think today's visit, by the way, and the deputy secretary of the united states, will also be

about the importance of team unity, the importance of non-interference in politics in the action of the military, and it should be mentioned that the pentagon is still sending its general here, who will be a coordinator and will work together with the general staff in order to more closely coordinate military actions, that is, the world... literally says that in order to achieve victory, you must have professional authority is required to understand the risks of management, you need to understand the importance of the actions of the military and you need to demonstrate this unity, and not only in political relations, there is a political leadership, the military, but in general relations between political forces, because in ukraine sometimes one gets the impression that the war is already over, that we we are already starting the pre-election campaign there. campaign, we are clarifying some relations, we are fighting the opposition there, nothing changes with freedom of speech, for some reason the marathon will not reach its end in any way, as

our westerners also frankly tell us partners, it is good that the european union has now supported us at such a very important moment, but i can imagine how many more problems we face after the start of negotiations with the european union, and this requires a lot of hard work... the work of the government and the opposition, and civil society society and all of ukraine. yes, actually, you already stood up to the decision of the european union summit, the leaders of the european union, about the beginning of changes in ukraine, or rather, the beginning of changes in the countries of the european union with ukraine , and of course, in this situation the most interesting role was the role of viktor orban, who came out somewhere or to the toilet or for coffee, and without it they voted unanimously for. the beginning of such negotiations with ukraine, in russia, in russian media, russian propaganda all weekend just discussed this incident and

they said that orban was bribed or tricked, or i don't know what was done to him there, that's what they said, it it was very revealing, let's see how it was. orbán was betrayed in order to save face in budapest, scholz invites orbán to go out for coffee. from the hall during the vote on ukraine's membership in the eu. orban leaves, the decision is taken by the remaining majority, 26 states, and hungary - the twenty-seventh country, according to the regulations, abstained due to the absence of a leader in the hall. upon his return, orban could have wiped out this decision, but he did not. now they gave this handout in the form of 10 billion, one decision was made, he went to drink coffee, now they will give another 20, he will go again for coffee. for orban, his principledness will become slightly less principled on this issue, he does not even hide it, he does not even hide it, he is just looking for

money for his economy, well, in principle, it is difficult to blame for this, in europe they are discussing orban, who was either bribed or persuaded to drink coffee, while the leaders of european countries voted for the start of negotiations on the admission of ukraine to the eu, i do not accept this explanation, i do not really understand you at all... , which means that you can vote when someone went to a coffee shop to drink, that is, it turns out that there are no uniform rules, that is, what is the general level of the organization of the electoral process and the voting process there, that is , who is he now coffee, let's go we will quickly vote until he is gone, that is , he is trying to tell us some kind of fairy tale, probably a role in general. it plays, if the decision is taken by consensus, that is , it is probably still necessary to ask anyone, or it will be written there where you are, and i had a drink at the coffee shop, so we understand everything, and here

the questions are not to orban, the questions are to us, just to us it is necessary to approach european politics more calmly, realizing that there is no putinferstei, as the germans say, there are clear, understandable national interests, some do not have them, but those who are there, they observe them. surprisingly, the chancellor of austria was also absent from the room during the vote for the new package of anti-russian sanctions. but we have already agreed with him, he has already removed all his objections. mr. oleg, we see how all these nesting dolls are russian in europe, orban and the foreign minister of austria, who did not vote for the 12th package of sanctions, and then supported this 12th package of sanctions, because the austrian one was removed. bank, raiffeisen bank under sanctions, what, what do you think, is it for putin, who cracked down like this wings last week and said that there are guys

in the european union... who conduct independent politics, all the others are not leaders and politicians at all, what do you think, how will this affect orban, the fact that he actually went against putin, and austria, which has always traditionally been a part of russian politics, because russians have always considered austria to be a state that was close both financially and economically, well, probably. politically, did they perceive austria as part of its continuation of their imperial desires and all kinds of encroachment? this is very unexpected and very painful news for russia and its propagandists, because the fact of a formal, legitimate vote on the involvement of ukraine in direct negotiations on

the acquisition of membership, and... this happened and it happened without violation, they what are they doing there, well, it's not the same as the cis countries, where everything is democratic, any country can veto russia's decision there, of course, it may not be the union, we've been through it all, we remember how it all works there, here for them , they were sure that orban will succeed, and that they have more influence, someone... is talking about the fact that they have some paps in the kremlin with compromising material, well, we often hear these conversations, but here a very unpleasant situation has arisen for them, because when we are already talking about the fact that the process of joining ukraine to the european union becomes practically irreversible, because until the moment of receiving the application, we could have received a veto there at any moment, it was a political

decision. we received the candidacy, then it was quite difficult to pass this year and formally with the fulfillment of the seven conditions that we need , it is not an easy situation, but we did it, and we did it in a way that no country could , even orbán could not formally come forward and block this decision, as he said that he would. .. there can name 100 reasons why ukraine cannot start these negotiations, and when this process begins, it becomes clear that ukraine is simply unstoppably becoming part of the european union, and this is in fact, and we are on the same path to nato, and that is why russia is losing us, we, they are losing us, and they are they see it, and it is difficult to explain it to them, although they will still hope that there

will be some other obstacles. and we have every reason to say that in january we will most likely receive a positive decision by the american congress and the senate and the european union on the provision of 50 billion credits of financial assistance for the next four years, that is, ukraine is very confidently integrated into this community , and when we have a war of confession, well then... here the russians are already beginning to understand that they are spending 70 times more on this war own resources than the west spends to support ukraine, because the russians spent 100 billion in war wages during the years of the war, we received somewhere around 80 billion in aid, but if we take the gross domestic product, then for russia it is 6%, and for europe - this is... 0.17

in two years, in my opinion, the west simply did not notice this, and therefore, when a political decision is made, it understands that once a political decision is made, money always follows the political decision, well , the european union can't vote on that integration, to start negotiations and at the same time not support us financially, as the americans cannot do this, so that this would not happen there, if it were difficult there... and that is why there was such a problem, such hysteria, because they understand that ukraine is actually will never be part of it again, well , there will be no russian world here, thank you, thank you, mr. oleg, it was oleg hrybachuk, public figure, former vice-prime minister of ukraine and former head of president yushchenko's secretariat. friends, we work live, on broadcast on television, as well as on youtube for...