super notable work eh but this issue is recognized as a problem in the specialist community, we'll just have to see if this actually leads to any serious revision, but i can already see it as a pretty big step to be honest, but more this congress, which i mentioned, pleases me more than the events in individual museums. before, because they are academics, and their work, their books, and the way they teach their students affects over a period of time, much more fundamentally, museums, because all these people who study in universities, then work in these museums, this seems to me to be such a strategic, big process that started to move in the right direction, and i can’t avoid the topic... boycott of russian culture,

boycott or cancel, you are one of the authors of the manifesto of ukrainian cultural institutes , institutions, in particular the artistic arsenal and the ukrainian institute, ah, the manifesto, which was written in the early days of march 2022 , if i remember correctly, in which you called for the boycott of russian culture in order to not to increase the social and cultural capital of russia and not to help. to cover up russian crimes. please tell me, again, from today's point of view, how these demands worked in practice, how realistic was it to fulfill these demands that you voiced in this manifesto? well, we immediately understood, this letter was published such a manifesto on march 1, 2022, and it was immediately clear that these are the maximum from the point of view of some western institution.

but this is a serious call, so for example it has become indecent to have representatives of the russian... russian state on their supervisory boards or among the sponsors, which used to happen everywhere in many huge institutions, british and other american, so that, but it became clear quite quickly, on the contrary, it turned out to be very difficult for all these institutions are urged not to cooperate with russian artists who either support the russian regime, of course, or do not oppose it. so

it is that lens and sensitivity that we have when we can recognize and understand russian imperial discourse, this is a consequence of our terrible experience with russia , we recognize the nuances, we know when it happens, uh, this is very often not recognized at all by our visas in other countries, absolutely not understanding, where is this such uh.. . aggressive, such, such, from the word , aggressive from the word aggressor, i mean, this view, imperial, it is much more difficult, it requires a million nuances, it always puts ukrainians in a very difficult situation, because i still believe that there are conscientious ones russian intellectuals and cultural figures, maybe we don't know everything. in

the sense that those who review their own imperial position are ready to look at it with great criticality, that is, i always remain an optimist, but it is impossible to do this research every time with regard to each of your russian visas for ukrainian institutions of cultural figures, this means , which ukrainians cannot really afford. to somehow be together on the same stage with the russians, which is terribly difficult to explain in different institutions. in some moment, it seems to me that it was sofia andrakhovich who put forward such an argument, after that after dozens of discussions where she explained with rational arguments why she could not appear on the same stage with a russian writer, she resorted to an emotional argument and said that i i can't, it hurts me, i... and this argument turned out

to be acceptable, so are we, please tell me, are we not becoming, in fact, this is our persistence and a certain misunderstanding, right? yes , on the part of the organizers of some festivals, yes , a certain misunderstanding of our refusals, or is it not makes us in the eyes of western people, well, somehow, if not toxic, then somehow too radical or intolerable, or are such hysterics like that, a little and definitely, definitely does, and here it seems to me that we have three such tasks, which i imagine when we, when we make that decision about whether or not to interact. with natives of russia or representatives of russian culture, the first, as it seems to me, our big task is separation, that is, intellectual, cultural separation of ukraine from russia. not so long ago, ukraine was in very close connection with russia, even those

, let's say, even on the writing scene, on the literary scene, there are really people who are now pillars of the ukrainian literary scene, who wrote in russian, were published in russia, something. won russian prizes for a long time, these people made a radical act of separation, disconnecting themselves from the russian scene, i have a lot of respect for this, and i think this is exactly what does the same can be said about many artists, even artists of my generation and younger than mine generation, it had a huge number of very close, friendly, professional, economic ties with. russian art scene, and many of them carry out this separation, or have already carried out, this is happening, why is it important, because we, otherwise, unfortunately, in connection with russia, we always fall into such a dangerous situation for us, in russia acts

as an aggressor even in the cultural field, yes, so we just have to disconnect at some point, and this, unfortunately... the price of this may be our somewhat emotional behavior, right? the second task, i think very important, this is the advocacy of ukraine for the whole world, and by advocacy, i mean a story about myself on my own behalf, what kind of society we are, what our history is, what we can do, what we can bring to the common cultural scene, here you are a little different then you act, well, actually speaking, then in this... part of the task it is much more difficult not to interact with the russians, and this, it seems to me, you have to make this decision point by point each time, depending on the circumstances, and here is the third important task, it is how to say it, this is such a correction,

an idea of ​​the culture of eastern europe in general, including all this russian, an obshorum in some international science or, as we said in international institutions and museums, this is a cure for some kind of blinding of russian culture, which has not been allowed for centuries, not that for decades to see other cultures in the entire large region, and here it is also connected with this call to institutions, for example, european ones, to give up russian culture for a while, because. temporary rejection of russian culture, her representations, for example, uh, uh, should contribute to the cure of this blindness, but you, i read your text is wonderful about the cure of this, in particular the blindness, and you talk wonderfully there that it is an extremely

delicate thing and it is so very ethical here the thing that we are the limit that we to us, with which... we need to be very careful, i would like you to think about it, so what are there for us in this in the possibility of representing in this way, what is the subtle moment here , which we need to pay attention to? well here i am it seems a little dangerous and unreasonable to tell our vezav in other countries, stop being interested in russian culture, be interested in ukrainian instead. uh, well, because first of all, you can't tell people whether people work in institutions, they have interests, they are interested in something, they are interested in, let's say, avant-garde or baroque, and they are interested in something, you can't to say, stop being interested in it, here's something else for you, it can't work like that with a person, secondly, it sounds like for many, i

've heard it more than once from different interlocutors, they it is read a little bit, as our insidiousness, as it were... an attempt to push away to sit in such and such in such and such everyday terms, and that is not what ukrainian culture is about at all. does not need this, we have really great phenomena, such as lesya the ukrainian woman, let's say, historically, or the modern ukrainian cultural scene is very interesting, but we cannot careless handling of words and appeals can lead to such a perception, we must somehow be careful with this , it seems to me, and now while we, while we are now in this field, i will ask you how correctly we have behaved in the last two years, as far as i am present, for example

, i have also heard from some of our friends, artists, that we sometimes behave or give the impression that we are victims and heroes, and we own everything, have you witnessed this, and how it plays out, you know, i don't have such, such, such a reservation, i think there's one thing about... we have to admit to ourselves, we're going through an incredible scale the experience is dramatic, which is equally disproportionate to the western experience, and in fact, they don't see it the way we do, yes, yes, of course, they see it differently, but we have really unique knowledge, we see some unique things, no matter how tragic, we, only we can understand it. only we, do you remember how after the retreat, after the russians fell back near kyiv, the first event

we did in the artistic arsenal was a discussion called our great resettlement, it took place in may 22 , in the date of the book arsenal, and this is our great resettlement, it was, plans, this the topic of the book arsenal was planned, it was planned back in the fall of 21, and then suddenly, in 22, it became in a tragic way very ... relevant, more relevant than we thought, and then we got together and started talking about this our experience of this resettlement that happened to us , no one but the ukrainians themselves could understand it at that moment, it was a fantastic conversation, absolutely, and i think it was terribly needed at this moment, so what i 'm trying to say is that there are indeed experiences that only we can, where only we can speak in the first person. and uh, let's say like an extreme experience of violence or something like that, or mass

displacement like that, it's important to the whole world because there's really wars and violence in many places in the world, we have something to say about that, everybody previous decades, as far as i can remember professionally, we ukrainians were such students who should have listened to slightly smarter people. yeah, and add something to the conversation if they're talented enough. and here it seems to me, well, in mine professional experience, probably for the first time i saw such a moment when we have not only an incredible experience, because we had an incredible experience even before that, we did not know how to understand it ourselves and talk about it and have the consciousness, i apologize, the courage to speak about it with enough confidence , and enough education, education. which allows you to speak in terms that will be understood in other places, in other

countries, in these world museums, and this is the first time , probably in a long time, we have built this generation of at least some weak institutions, and people, even more importantly, who are able to speak on their own behalf with their own voice about their incredible experience, it gives you a really very strong ... sense of such self-empowerment, which can naturally collapse at times into naive arrogance, with that, you have to be careful in yourself and no , don’t allow yourself to fall into it, i remember, i remember another article, this time by oksana zabushko, it’s an article from the 1990s, i remember, i forgot what it’s called, but oksana there already talks about spoke about our inability to speak for the world, and she mentioned in some joint meeting in the association

of writers of ukraine, at that time, with westerners, where one writer said: do you know our, well, for example, shevelyov, and when the foreigners said no, this literate woman said, it can be seen, and oksana zabushko says that it's like she was there somewhere in the village of karpatsky, and everyone asked her, and you know, she's from the city... and terribly native may not be familiar at all. and we need to somehow successfully tell the world about him, and we don't have much time left, 10 minutes, i want to ask you about that, you said that you are an optimist, an optimist and you think that there are among ukrainian intellectuals, and people who may have rethought, reimagined

russia, have they rethought the russian imperial framework, huh? if i could ask you, maybe you could name a few such people, but i have one person, such and even two russians, whom i could name, but let's start with the names, well, you know, it's difficult, because i think that often russian intellectuals themselves still have a huge some despite everything, even these well-intentioned people have a huge blind spot, some such area, where it is very difficult for them. to see myself precisely from these imperial positions, however, i am even a little utopian, a utopian optimist, it always seems to me that everything is not as bad as it seems, and in the end you are right, i will honestly say, sometimes yes, sometimes, i i also don't believe that everything is very good and that

everything is very bad, so there is one character who seems to me not bad at... dom is a russian historian, tetyana tairova yakovleva, who, who seems to me, honestly explores the legacy of the hetmanship, which, well, she learned the ukrainian language, this also rarely happens, which is also at the beginning, i think, before the russian invasion, she repeatedly appeared on russian television, debunking the myths with which... putin operated, uh- er, and it was precisely from the position of such a conscientious introspection. i don't know how it will be further, let's say, in her work, at this moment, she seems to me to be one of those figures that give me hope, but there are other historical examples, not in russia, which

simply show that such work takes time, this is a polish re-interpretation. of their imperial heritage, and we know that the poles did it in the circle of hedroj and publishing, culture in paris, it continued for several decades, it was the 50s, 60s, 70s, it was in this circle that the term was born shot revival , for example, yes, uh, and it was such an underground work, a lot of people didn't know anything about it in ... so i still have this hope that maybe there is some kind of underground work that we don't see also among the russians , i remember even in i think the english historian tony judd, in one of his books, i think this book that she wrote with timothy snyder, there's a passage where tony judd talks about how he studied history, the post-war

history of france, and gives an example, with gedroyc, it was during this period that gedroyc was working in france, and gedroyc, gedroyc is now a huge figure for ukrainian-polish, let's say, relations, and someone asked ghidroyc if he ever had contact with, at all, acquaintance with jean-paul sartre, it is the same period, and the hydroyts answered: no, they will not understand anything, that is, it was super concentrated not... noticeable for such a mainstream of generally intellectual french work, although it happened precisely in paris, well, for me, this is also such an example for us ukrainians, nevertheless, do not lose this hope to be patient, and for me i would say that any honest russian intellectual should

at least learn about this case, and the last question is where... is your red line in general, how would you define participation in joint events for yourself, not even on one platform, but in joint events, for example, at festivals with russians, there is no uniformity in ukrainian society and in the environment, and even in the environment of pen, ukrainians there are different positions, and there are many conflicts about this, what do you think about it? i would say that we are like artists. arsenal , we do not imagine the possibility of presenting a russian artist in any of our projects, whether in ukraine or abroad , eh, or - well, this is an easy example, i am currently trying to get more complicated, i don't think i could personally on one

the scene to take part, in particular because i think that every such, every such case just requires an almost detective analysis of the positions of your face, it's a lot of work, which with the challenges ... that war brings us, we cannot afford , well, few of us, yes, so it seems to me that this pause in this relationship is a rational position, but i think that if i had to express an opinion about someone's decision to participate in this way, then it is necessary to take such a cold position, with a hot head, don't try, don't, don't, don't, don't... chew immediately, but to understand the arguments, that is, i think that we must

give our, so to speak, compatriots and people from our cultural scene what is called in english, i don’t even know if this concept is ukrainian, benefits of the doubts, when you give reasonable doubt, don't you immediately accuse in one word, but on the other hand, ah... i read your post today, where you talk about the fact that the new yorker came out with such a statement that about the fact that the whole society, not only in ukraine, like us they talked about ukrainian in that, yes, and what is the world in general, they wrote emotionally and mentally drained, emotionally and mentally exhausted, yes, since everyone is in that... now, we are also a part, the most tired part of a tired world, or it will not happen that this zeal of ours, well, let's call it that, yes,

let's call it zeal, or our principle will start to annoy people in a weary world so much that they will consider us guilty of the fact that the good old world is impossible for them, it can be, it can be, and it is again... once again shows how we should argue, but i still don't see why we should be accused of not wanting to participate in something together with russian visas, we are after all free people, this all in all, this is both what we do not want on the playgrounds, and what we continue to resist in aggression, so this is generally such a ukrainian thing that it is already in many places, not everywhere, but in many places it is simply already ... the status quo has become such that, okay, ukrainians will surely do this, that is, it is not causes such swelling and such

irritation, which does not mean that it will not, will not change, that is, it seems to me that we have already in some way, as a community, declared that there are things that are unacceptable for us, another matter is what we have inside in ukraine should continue now and it is starting, because whether or not until... some new texts will appear and so on, the discussion about what we are in general, what is ours, how, what is our attitude to the russian cultural scene should continue , to russian culture, and we must accept, it seems to me that there will not be one position, there will be her different positions, it will be a whole spectrum, they will have their own justification, it is much more important that we can discuss all this among ourselves. uh, and believe that very much, that is, i am very committed to this , i am sure that we should believe that the arguments of our visavi people, who together make this

ukrainian culture, that these are arguments from, that come from good intentions, someone can to do something better, worse, everything happens, but this conversation must be based on the fact that we have some common goal of creating our culture, and... then this discussion is possible, it is just must take place and take place for a long time, this conversation will take place for a long time. thank you lesya , unfortunately we ran out of time with you, i was very interested, this conversation was interesting, thank you, thank you, olesya ostrovska, cultural manager, director of the art arsenal, was a guest of the program own names. see you next week, stay tuned. according to the results of november, the espresso tv channel

ranks first among the channels. information broadcasting, for the eighth month in a row, we are the first. greetings, it's news time on the tv channel. this november we turned 1 10 years, we updated the design, the sound, we continue the saturday political club, khrystyna yatskiv and vitaly portnikov. our values ​​and ukrainian point of view remain unchanged. stay tuned for espresso updates and thank you for your trust. see this week in the collaborators program. propaganda dealers in the occupied territories. we are being filmed by the shackles of nazi ukraine, but how did a former ukrainian photo artist become a fan of wagner? huge thanks, dude wagner, to the forces of the russian federation. watch the collaborators with elena program on tuesday, december 19 kononenko on espresso tv channel. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already approached the serpent himself. the following shots

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see this week in the judicial review program. with tatyana shustrova. the ban on the maidan, connections with medvedchuk and property of dubious origin are what judge olena izovitova vakim is known for. her mother is the head of the bar council for many years. but why not vkks removed the judge from the administration of justice. to announce a break in consideration of the issue. congratulations, this is judicial control, a program about the declarative and real rule of law in ukraine. the foundation for the further development of our state is, in particular. quality judicial reform, ukraine's chance to join the eu depends on it. today we will talk about those who bring this introduction closer for us, and those who, on the contrary, distance it. but first, traditionally, to the news. the state bureau of investigation has completed its investigation into the case against the former appellate judge of the court of the luhansk region of olga bas, who betrayed her oath and helped the russians create illegal judicial bodies for

the temporarily occupied. territories of ukraine. for such help, she received the position of senator, representative of the lpr group in the federation council of the federal assembly of russia. according to the investigation, after the capture of a part of the luhansk region in 2014, bas joined the so-called ministry of state security of the lpr and became the curator of the judicial branch. she developed drafts of illegitimate legislative acts and documents that copy the norms of russian legislation. in 2017, a suspected murder. held the position of the so-called head of the administration of the head of the lpr and campaigned for the population of the temporarily occupied part of the luhansk region to be recognized as citizens of a quasi-republic. currently, olha bas, as a senator of the russian federation, coordinates the functioning of all branches of the occupying power in the occupied territory and supervises the conduct of separatist activities against ukraine. such a son whom you brought up, whom you raised,

who became a defender of the fatherland and... who died defending the russian world.