here we are in this process, and the process obviously has certain positive aspects in this part, i am absolutely sincere, frankly, if i would state with joy. ugh. gentlemen, let's make our conversation as complete as possible. at the expense of two more speakers, two more guests, ihor chelenko, head of the analysis and strategy center. congratulations, mr. igor. oleksiy boryachenko, candidate of political sciences, head of the international association of small communities. mr. oleksiy, we congratulate you. greetings, friends. that you have joined us, and let's, if we already make up to begin with, an estimate, give assessment of how ukraine fought corruption , continues to do so, because the year is not over yet, in fact, we can hear many more interesting, loud statements and revelations, nevertheless, if you were to personally compile this rating of the fight against corruption, the ukrainian rating, then on a ten-point scale, what would you rate , mr. oleksiy, let's start with you. put to the law enforcement agencies, you

mean, let's go in order, so put it up, let's go to the law enforcement agencies first, well , in fact, this assessment will be quite high, because just now mr. gennady said absolutely correctly that it was during this short period of time that the law enforcement agencies regained the trust of society, even as the corresponding sociological studies say. earlier , let's say, there was more trust in the newly created law enforcement agencies, such as the state bureau of investigation, but now those law enforcement agencies or central executive authorities with special statuses, respectively, which had somewhat imposed their the reputation component, well because... we have known since the 14th year that

some of the law enforcement officers there, primarily the prosecutor's office, the sbu, the police, defected to the enemy's side, and therefore it was really a serious reputational blow to these bodies, to these services. now we can see how effectively the security service of ukraine works, after all, they have really ceased to be such a body for the investigation of business, which... is absolutely not within their competence and responsibility, but began to deal, accordingly, with a real fight against the internal enemy , and they succeed quite well, the state bureau of investigation is generally number one in the trust rating, and for good reason, since all their cases are, well, at least they only go into the public space, these are top cases, these are ministers, these are deputy ministers. these are heads of entire

state services, heads at the regional level, remember the tax cases, this is odesa, this is zhytomyr, this is khmelnytskyi, in terms of customs, how effectively it was worked out, well, i am already silent about this collective borisov, so to speak, yes, how much in tsc was ordered, according to vilka, that is, well, in fact, we can state with you, and not only us, even. our foreign partners used such an interesting concept about a month ago as: ukraine showed a radical fight against corruption precisely through law enforcement agencies, so in principle, i assess the work of our law enforcement agencies as positively as possible, even during the war. out of 10 points, how much do you give, and out of ten points, well, in fact, i would give it to every law enforcement officer. i would probably give the organ its own

separately, but i would still like that they say, i wouldn't mix flies and meatballs, yes, but in general, but in general, well, i think seven points, yes, mr. igor, your score will be higher or lower, please share your observations and your analysis, well, on the one hand, i certainly agree here that somewhere around seven, but seven - this number is lucky and actually in ukrainian conditions it is. shows real effectiveness, although, of course, we have to go much further, reform today and even the newly created anti-corruption vertical, we see that this is already happening actively and the verkhovna rada of ukraine, i remember , literally at the recent plenary sessions , another draft law was adopted in the first reading, which will improve the work of nabu, sap, and the zk, and in general , we see that this process continues to gain momentum . therefore, in principle, what we

see now, well, it can be called, you know , not satisfactory, but not bad, really not bad, you can go further and on it... the most important thing is that this reform is definitely not can be called a failure, and the most important thing is that we need to make it absolutely effective the entire vertical, including the higher anti-corruption court, because now there are questions about its effectiveness, because we see that, after all, judges also have an appropriate workload and there is already talk of the need and increase in the number of judges, and it is possible that some cases may be considered there by more than three . not by a collegium, but by one judge each, but nevertheless, i think that in this matter, too, today there is a political will to make these technical but systemic changes in order to raise the level of the fight against corruption to an additional level, but again yes i am i note that in fact ukrainian

society today sees, really sees all these steps and reflects, reflects positively, i remember, for example, a sociological... study, it seems, a month ago, if i am not mistaken, conducted by the kms, 59% of ukrainian citizens directly stated , that they record positive changes in the anti-corruption campaign, and they see this fight against corruption, and this is the most important thing, it is precisely this cognitive factor that shows that all this is happening for a reason, it means that ukraine continues to take a step towards civilized society and to the civilized relationship between society and the state and in general. removing corruption as a systemic phenomenon, and what is important, does not stop going on this path, mr. gennadiy, i remember earlier, when we talked about the fight against corruption, information about the fact that in all this corrupt, for example, a corruption chain, usually

small links of this chain were under suspicion, under searches, has this situation changed now, if we are talking about such high-profile, let's say corruption scandals, or according to you... the analysis succeeds not only, for example, to identify there, to announce a suspicion, presumably to convict the executors, there are some small ones, or this chain and the attention of anti-corruption bodies reaches the biggest break, listen, well first of all, even for people's deputies, it 's a bit scary here in the sense that it's scary that we will soon become poorer, no, that soon the deputies will run out and whoever will vote there will continue the budget. martial law, no, seriously, because here are the last couple four months have already been released there, this is actually an unprecedented story, this has never happened, and so that deputies of the ruling faction are brought to criminal responsibility, i am such, well, this is a unique phenomenon in history, and at the same time, no one

tries, if at all, to protect them , then only in a legal way, there someone came to take bail, this is also a normal situation, it is not necessary, well, a person is considered innocent until he has a verdict, he is considered innocent, so there is still top corruption in terms of corruption. once again, we started with this, actually unprecedented history, it is true that there was no head of the board of directors, although they are also there, it is a matter of the police, the state bureau of investigation, top corruption, it actually suffers blows and will continue accordingly in this sense, i also want, for the sake of objectivity, a little spoonful of tar in this the whole story, what i said above in terms of diferamp in our anti-corruption vertical, it was related to my performance, at least in relation to nabu and the specialized anti-corruption prosecutor's office, that is, the national agency for the prevention of corruption. it stands out, unfortunately, in a negative context from this entire campaign, why? because, well, first of all, this was recently confirmed by an audit, according to the zk, and the audit, foreigners were also represented, including ours, they did not admit, although they admitted that they completed the task there by something like 72%, but in general

, from their point of view, the current leadership of the nzk did not fulfill the task in many, many parameters, plus what exactly does the nzk do, for example, we have... sponsors of the war, sorry, our viewers, let's remind that the national security agency is an agency that is supposed to prevent corruption, that is , they do not investigate corruption, but they investigate certain administrative corruption offenses, and they do not hand them over to law enforcement officers, i mean, they themselves can issue protocols for minor , conditionally speaking, a violation of the central criminal code, well, there is a minor violation of declaration, interests, etc., they can draw up administrative protocols and send them to the court, according to which a decision is made or no decision is made. and so in this part, first of all, there is the nzk that deadlines will be missed, there is a lot of inefficient work , and what i wanted was a moment, but when the body exceeds its powers, they created a register of war sponsors, invented it themselves, accordingly , someone is included there, someone is removed, there are

a lot of companies, including very well-known foreign ones , and we, for example, had problems with the hungarians in this context, they blocked our aid for many months precisely because someone, unknown how, entered their banks in the register. this so-called sponsors of the war, as its from there to withdraw there, but the mechanism is not legal, well, that is, here we found ourselves in such a strange situation, if we start to withdraw someone, like we succumbed to blackmail, why did we put them there and what kind of register is this? so far no one has been able to explain, because it is simply as if such self-activity, self-creation, and they directly wrote about it on their website, therefore there is no need to engage in such activities, it is necessary for each body to be responsible for its own issues, but the good news is in part nsk consists in the fact that the previous management is already leaving its ends his term of office and there will be a competition for new management accordingly, and in fact we saw how much the activity and activity had increased after the crooked nose took over the position of director instead of mr. sytnyk, and here too... we can expect the addition of a certain intelligence, competence and, accordingly, the right activity, not where if it were not for the policy

to do what we created the register, now we will punish everyone there, accordingly international companies, especially, and there are types there, starting there from leroy myrlen, ending with many others, well, it should be done by the security service of ukraine, the national security and defense council, the president, but not just anyone, because each of our rural councils will accordingly make their own registers, it will not do us any good, so in this context, ... there are flaws here and there, just as there are flaws in anything, nothing in the world is perfect, but once again we emphasize that precisely in the fight against top corruption today, well, that's right, a high-quality step will really take place , mr. oleksiy, we can also hear your opinion about that, and such recent famous names, such famous positions, someone is being suspected, someone is taken, they literally take him or his accomplice as a bribe, huh? what does this indicate, we, we are already observing a certain trend, will it widen, deepen, this process cannot be stopped?

i think that the whole society wants this process to be non-spinal, and it is actually, not even that in the recommendations of our western partners, it is first of all our interests so that we have zero tolerance for corruption, and accordingly it positively maximal. will also affect trust in the state from the side of society, including the investment climate, because we count a lot on the process of reconstruction of ukraine, restoration of ukraine, on foreign investors, so this is probably one of the key issues now that we have to solve even during the war, by the way, remember, it was not for nothing that the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyy , noted that we are at war with two enemies at the same time, with... an external enemy and an internal enemy, with corruption

. let's say, yes, our barrel with djogki is filling up, let's go, it's already the second, but no , well, at the beginning i'll say a plus, relatively to mention on the zk, the last case that i saw was really positive, it was when they discovered unconfirmed sources of income for the last three years from performing. the duties of the head of the tax district of poltava region, when there were houses, apartments and everything you want, cars for 6 million, it was registered in the name of close relatives, and she could not confirm this, and accordingly this case was transferred to the state investigation bureau and now already relevant relatively of this woman, there is a precautionary finding, so it cannot be said that the nzk is actually fully... working normally there, we see positive cases, including from them, and i am

still a white person in the judicial system, because it is part of the law enforcement system as a whole, maybe someone just doesn’t know this, maybe i think that only law enforcement agencies are responsible for the law enforcement system, no, friends, the judicial system, which is a very serious component of the law enforcement block, is also responsible for this, well, that’s it and if we are really high with colleagues. we evaluate the law enforcement part there , then even society evaluates the judicial part there, well, about a year or two ago, it was at the level of 10% trust there, well , now she raised it a little there, well, somewhere there , the same quiz that igor mentioned, somewhere there, well 22%, well, or a lot, well, in fact , the level of trust in the courts is in the region of 20%, well , i don’t think so, and something really needs to be done with this component, and it’s me... a spoonful of poison that really needs to be solved as conceptually as possible soon.

three is a magic number, will the third spoonful of iron be from mr. igor? mr. igor, do you have anything to add? well, if you order, it will, of course, be again about the nzk, only here the question is precisely about cases where we see a number of closed court cases due to the fact that all cases there are based on... declarations, there are already statutes of limitations all have passed, and they close one by one, then another official, these are people 's deputies and not only, this just shows that... it is necessary to remove such moments that are used by our officials in order to avoid both administrative and criminal responsibility, i think that they will continue to work on this, ugh, thank you, mr. gennadiy, i remember when the party, in particular, the servant of the people came to power, they talked a lot about the fact that responsibility

for corruption in ukraine, especially among top officials, should be not only political, but also criminal, and we understand that... it existed in ukraine from the beginning of ukraine's independence, yes, and during these 30 years, the government changed, but there was some kind of, well, non-public contract, they say those who had already left, well, they were very rarely actually reprimanded afterwards for corruption crimes. in your opinion, how difficult is it in general to really bring to criminal responsibility, and not only to political responsibility, those who were in power, for example, for years... well, the fact is that there are enough opportunities, in fact, the question is as for our expectations, mr. oleksiy threw a little bit of a spoon at him, he said quite a dangerous thing about the courts in the sense that he is right in terms of public expectations, yes, that there is low trust, despite the fact that we have a similar situation, there are statistics that 15% of people there have faced the courts, they believe that

there is bribery and corruption 75%, that is, people, what is this question not worth asking here? people have not encountered, but i still think that this is a corrupt institution, there is such a problem in the courts, but it is exaggerated in the sense that even here everyone is actually guilty, there are also situations when lawyers, you know, a person, a lawyer wants to make money, he says everything, but it's impossible without... even though he knows that it's all there it is absolutely normal, it can be done and is done for free, relatively speaking, but a person has the feeling that he did not pay a lawyer's fee, but rather a bribe to a judge. very common situations, sometimes colleagues are exposed, if on this occasion, it ’s a pity, but if there is such and such a negative, and the law enforcement agencies are struggling with it, there are very often actually people who come directly to look for me, accordingly, where to give something , so that

my case is resolved, that is, there is a certain stereotype that if you are from... accordingly, you will not give, then they will give from the other side, accordingly having gained a competitive advantage, well, and further, this is all wrapped up in a very big such care and a very big negative, and what this ultimately leads to is that people expect that the courts will issue a decision purely about the fact that an official should go to prison acquitted, that's exactly what was decided, they released him on bail, clearly, if he would avoid responsibility, this is usually not the case, the commercial courts are waiting for what we have, go to any appellate commercial website in our system, there is one tab on almost every website there are seven or eight regional interregional commercial courts and there are the most important cases and on the list there are 95 cases and 100 that the state extorted something from someone from an ordinary entrepreneur, a businessman, but i know cases when 20 years ago someone bought a store accordingly trades there, respectively, after 20 years

, the prosecutor’s office comes and says: listen , you had to collect 25 signatures there when you privatized, and there you have 24. let ’s go back, it’s funny to you, such very widespread situations, this is right here and now, respectively is heard in the city of kyiv, by the way, and this is an abnormal topic, because actually, our people know that any business, as you know, there the first million is necessarily earned criminally, which is necessary, whenever it is it was, at least under the pea king, at least in another way, to revive everything in the state, to get everything, we already have a banking system, today 70% of it is state property. many people have such resentment about the soviet union, as if the state is good, business is bad, it lives in the masses in the broad masses, and the court is responsible public expectations, he must harvest business , make decisions accordingly and in favor of the state, he will put someone there somewhere, take something away, but this is not exactly the way to a market economy, democracy, the european union and all that, with us, the person must be in the first place , and this must

have an acquittal, even in relation to an official , it must be perceived normally, we must trust the court, just as if the state loses something in court, it does not necessarily mean that the court was corrupt, it may just be the law if i predicted, and if we are this healthy we will improve the atmosphere when judges stop considering themselves an extension of the executive power and sometimes, accordingly, law enforcement agencies, in some courts the state cannot win in principle, all lawyers know this very well, then society must reformulate its expectations a little, delve a little more into the situation and not generally speaking about the fact that we do not like the decision, we are saying that the court... is correspondingly corrupt, but to sort it out, listen to the expertise accordingly and to a certain extent complicate the view of these things, here is oleksiy brychenko, we see, there is something to add, mr. oleksiy, please, yes, well, first of all. i want to thank you for a good conversation and , first of all, including my colleagues, because it really turned out to be as deep and meaningful as possible, i also want

to reflect on the judges, here mr. genatiy said about the figure of 12% of sold sentences, yes , in fact, this is positive, it is clear the dynamics, the tendency to be positive, since earlier, well , remember in the 90s, maybe gennady... here now he will tell, it was there 1 2 3%, if you look at oleksii, oleksii, oleksii, 0.1, 0.2, and it remains even now in the general courts, not in the higher anti-corruption court, it is still the case, no, well, right, well, what am i each of you mentioned 12, well, anyway, in any case, so i in addition to the negative impact on the judicial system, i should also note certain trends corresponding to the positive for justice, but still, but still now. during the war, and our president spoke about this by the way, those crimes committed by high-ranking officials, those from the state structure, so to speak, those who loot

humanitarian aid, yes, let's say, those who continue to denigrate our business from various institutions, even state ones, thinking that it is their personal property, and they do not work for the ukrainian people in... these people, in fact, even a preventive measure, i am not talking about a final sentence, has definitely be as strict as possible, and not just receive a night arrest there, and then this case becomes obsolete and so on and so on, well, because for me now is the time when it is really necessary to restore order and show the inevitability of punishment to those people who interests in the state... i i agree from the point of view of assessment and the public

mood is exactly the same, but there is the issue of the criminal procedure code, the severity of the punishment, the severity of the crime, it cannot condition a preventive measure , that is what is written in the criminal procedure code, there is a different logic, there it is about risks, whether one will evade or not evade, if the logic is, if a person who has committed a non-violent crime, and corruption, as a rule, is not a violent crime, can accordingly be under a less burdensome preventive measure until he is convicted, his choice we need a softer one, this is a direct requirement of our law, the european convention for the protection of rights and fundamental freedoms, but the mood is against it, and that's why everyone is in custody, well, i know the cpc, i myself am a lawyer before my first education, i graduated from the kharkiv academy with honors , but the question is not about that, absolutely, here is the case that immediately comes to my mind, do you remember where it is in lviv oblast, yes, if i am not mistaken, in tsk, employees of tsk beat people there, yes, directly , who were already on the ground,

blows were inflicted and so on and the like, well, that's it the preventive measure for these tsk workers who gang-beat a person was night arrest, and against the background, well, the resonance of this crime, against the background of how critical society is... all those things reacted, then at least night arrest is, in my opinion , a very mild restraint. now i will talk exclusively about such, well, important things. well, here is the last thing i will say, the point is that in a state governed by the rule of law , society's opinion on how to implement the law should not have any influence, let them think what they want. it is written in the law, so far, we do it by law if we are going to put public opinion before the law, then we will not go there. the mildest, mildest preventive measure, i believe that it is, well, in some cases, there can definitely be some influence of corruption on that court, because in this category

of criminals, accordingly, also a group one, this is at least the second part, accept definitely a stricter preventive measure than was adopted. we have heard your positions, friends, thank you for this discussion, we have more sub-topics that we would like to discuss, but first we must let go oleksiy buryachenko, candidate of political sciences, head of the international association of small communities. thank you for being with us again. gentlemen , in general, let's actually sharpen this topic even more and talk about the initiative, which sounded from the president of ukraine in one of the interviews, that corruption during wartime in the state of ukraine can be equated with treason, let's talk, think, is this an option for withdrawal, what are the possible consequences of such a decision, if it appears and will be implemented by us. legislation, mr. igor, you can have yours opinion to hear? well, in my opinion, even if changes are made to the domestic

regulatory framework, then... the maximum that it will give in the current conditions is a preventive method, precisely the protection against further corrupt actions by some of our officials, the other part of the officials will simply be in favor risk, will try to take even bigger funds, then in our case, unfortunately, it works, then the effect will be the opposite, yes, someone will not want to do it closely, someone will raise rates, and here is the most important thing. yes, what actually, actually, current affairs, they already show that you you can negotiate, you can get a roof from someone higher up there, but in fact, like nabu, and sap, and others, our anti-corruption bodies, they show that in reality it does not make any sense, because on the contrary , the number of those cases and participants is even increasing

of these corruption crimes, let's put it that way. who will simply be involved in this or that, in this or that criminal proceeding, so there is no point in this, but by the way, i will finish my opinion about the judges, what was discussed, their effectiveness, you know, one very important point, which the european commission also points out to us in its recommendations, as of today, we have more than 200 judicial vacancies, and they are not closed, that is, we understand that those... judges who are now directly and make decisions decisions , their number is catastrophically insufficient, therefore, of course, we will not do it in one day, not in one month, not in one year, but nevertheless, this problem must be eliminated so that every citizen can, if necessary, have the opportunity to properly participate in justice, because many people are simply afraid to go to court, because they know that it drags on for years

, not only the consideration itself. cases, but it is also banal to open proceedings, the judges are too overloaded, that is the biggest problem, mr. igor, and what are the reasons for the shortage, lack of personnel? well, we understand that there are different moments, somewhere, judges, including those who refuse themselves, go there, to retire, let's say, yes, a number of judges on their own. there are signs of underfunding, i am not talking about wages, but in general about the work of district officials there judges and courts and so on, and we understand that the system in general, well, it is actually stagnating, because as of today , no judicial reform has been completed, and this is the biggest problem, so now we really have to talk about complex changes , which

will correct a number of these errors. mr. gedadiye, maybe you have a person who directly deals with the judicial system, participates in meetings and maybe feels a lack of personnel, you have a possible explanation for this phenomenon, no, but there is a very simple situation, we had a blocked activity of the highest quality commission of judges , the activities of the supreme council of justice were partially blocked, and these bodies, they carried out re-certification and appointed new ones, had to appoint new ones who passed the competition, the bodies did not work, there was no one to appoint, respectively. judges were not appointed, and other judges were gradually removed, well, some are there, some die, some retire, that is , there were no new, new blood, now it all seems to have resumed and we expect changes in this regard next year, so this is a plus - minus everything if it's bad, that this blocking of work lasted for a long time, but it is good that we will unblock this entire situation, and well, in the context of what the president said, if you allow, let's do so, this is the next question for you, about whether it is worth

recognizing. .. if you cut down, corruption will disappear? no, of course, well, in china, in saudi arabia , there is corruption, there is corruption, china is a favorite example, punishment in itself means nothing, but you understand, if it is guaranteed that 90%, not even 100, of people who take bribes will receive one year deprivation of liberty is not necessary there even for life, 10, one, no one wants to believe, and 15 virgins of administrative arrest to serve their own punishment, if there is such a possibility. they will stop, they will be afraid , but in any case, therefore the question is the inevitability of the punishment, not in the punishment itself as such, in the inevitability, especially since again we are somewhat to a certain extent forced into the situation, in principle it is good where we are it is not that somewhere everything is so great, and everything is so bad here, in fact, everything is relative, because if we look at the discussion in the united states, why trumpists come out and speak, they have three questions for ukraine, the first is democracy, why don't you hold elections, well if, why don't we hold elections,

because there is a war, that's why we don't hold them. the second issue is ukraine.