opinion, because russia does not give a damn about it from the bell tower of ivan the great, about this international law and about whom it protects. russia believes that everything is decided by force, only after force decides, it is possible to agree on a new border, so to speak. and it is important that people do not, cannot extrapolate what is happening around them in a real situation, another great example that already concerns, i think, the reaction. to the events that took place, which i saw now that i woke up and looked, why the israeli forces the security forces were not prepared for such a massive attack by hamas, because the special services have always explained that terrorists from hamas are not economically interested in attacking israel, so nothing like this will happen, this is about the same as what the west has always explained to us, and we explained to ourselves, well, russia can't start a war, it's not economically interested, and when i told my...

german friends that the war would start a week after the completion of nord stream-2, they looked at me, like a city madman, people still can't to understand, it is also a sign of this political nation that we have acquired and of the world in which we live, that for many economic interests mean little when it comes to the realization of their schizophrenic fantasies, and we too need to learn to live in a world of such realities, and ending this thought, a political nation is very good, in which world do you live... a political nation internally in the world of its own ideas about life and externally in the world of ideas about what can expect from this political nation, these are the next questions , rhetorical, so i would ask you it is also possible to ask a rhetorical question, i really like the way you formulate them, and maybe i will just add briefly, i will literally just continue what vitaliy spoke about, he absolutely gave a brilliant formulation about the political nation... fright

and that’s exactly what , what happened to us in reality , and this is happiness in misfortune, let's call it that, in fact, i also very well remember the times of the late yanukovych in front of the maidan, emotionally, energetically, it was such a thick non-electrified air that does not move, in which it is impossible to breathe and not it is clear whether, in principle, there is any future and how to formulate it, and very well... i remember there publications, public statements of some of our intellectuals who said that it might be easier for us to give donbas there, for example, from the russian language and to build some kind of normal ukraine without him, that is, these are all the moments when it was easier to follow the path of non-resistance, without making efforts to get to know each other and understand each other,

to work with internal problems, and in fact, when the war began, at first in its during the crimean-donbass phase, and now finally, we got mixed up, and we finally got to know each other, and understood that the most important value is actually being ukrainian, all other differences are something that should theoretically be smoothed out by a good... education and political culture, with which a political nation should live, and we always lacked a little of this, well, because there were no opportunities, again we talked about all these russian influences and erosion, which were brought here from the inside for a very long time, very systematically, therefore, actually, here is the vote in 2019, this is just a manifestation of the fact that there is a political nation, but there is no political culture and...

there is no tradition of responsible thinking and no strategy for the future either, that is , no one thinks about it, we will spend, we will do something so funny choice, let's try, and if not, then we will make another maidan and throw it off and do everything, all the bullshit , let's go, gentlemen, like us, as some activists said , whom we have now forgotten a little, and therefore it is now clear that somehow during the great bloody war, hot phase. when before us a new big story opens , a cycle of this story, when the world enters another big bloody phase, talking about education and the systematic building of political culture seems a little strange, but it doesn’t matter if we try, in particular within the framework of the forum and in general to think about the future, about its writing, rewriting this future, because i have already...

repeated several times that the writing of the future is , in particular, a recipe, that is, the components from which, from which this future should be built, then we have to think about the fact that... we catastrophically lack not only deep knowledge about each other, but also deep systemic knowledge about the world and us in it. i want to add one thesis that i think that what we have, what we faced not today, not yesterday, but the day before yesterday, what we have to fight with, is, if you like, the reactivity of the ukrainian nation and the reactivity of this perception, i always understood this from my own experience, because this was my question even in childhood to many people who said: oh, if we were not followed. or on a sine wave, that is, we have some fantastic ones passionate periods, when people build a state and give their lives for

it and try to speak themselves to the world, alternate with periods when it all breaks down against one's own people, about infantilism, it is very aptly said, and about unpreparedness... work further, instead of conforming to some convenient slogans and agreeing with someone situationally in the middle, most often we have to agree with russia, but well , there are also other episodes in history, and that is why i am actually very afraid of this, that in fact at the moment of some depletion by war, of resources, psychological, and the world will force us to dialogue and... and we ourselves are tired and partially destroyed, we will somehow drift towards this dialogue, and then in fact the next generation will have to do it again, those who are now conditional there 15- 16, 18 years old, will have

to start all over again. i'm not sure that a political nation can be inherited, unless it's that three-year-old lawn that's been watered and cut and it's already in... orderly enough that it needs to be very a lot of effort must be made to break it, to destroy it, but all the same, we also know the history of world democracies, parliamentarism, all this came about with a lot of blood and a lot of struggle, and sooner or later something will still make its way from under this lawn, what there is it shouldn't be, and actually i always think about the fact that we are talking about victory and rebuilding the aftermath. victory, what is victory, what shall we call victory? the exit to the borders of the 13th year, the restoration of the status there for the 91st year, will we go there from the ossyan dodona, what, what do we imagine as a victory,

or just the day when the war will end, and we, in particular, the international community will impose some kind of truce with russia, which one way or another in 5-10 years will turn into a new war, when they... will come to finally destroy everything that is not finished, taking into account their previous mistakes and building up another wave of mobilization and producing new weapons, so i'm coming back, i don't really have an answer, but we see how ukrainian history oscillates and oscillates like this, you can analyze why this happens, but i actually go back to the question of education, it seems to me that the actual study and... history, public conversation about this history and about historical analogies, which are very shaky ground in reality, but often give many insights, can, well, give a little buffer to the next generation, not secure it from having

to do everything again, but at least give a little more at the start, i think i interpret it a little differently, because you, when you talk about a political nation, you... for some reason you analyze it in the categories of good or bad, and a political nation is simply a political nation, that is the hungarian political nation, this is a political nation , yes, they vote for viktor orbán, or they can vote for someone else, in the pre-war period they generally lived under the rule of the regent admiral horci, but they were simply hungarians, well, hungarians, well, they are hungarians, well, but , but you can be a political nation, sorry to interrupt, effective or ineffective, let's call it that, you can be a political nation. effective, may be ineffective, this is absolutely normal for any political nation, but the issue of the ukrainian political nation was that the majority of the population here did not belong to this political nation, did not consider themselves ukrainians as such, but we live there in the cis, and we are there in general, oh, we are khokhly, we do not

know here, but what is the difference to us, what is the difference, well, what is the difference , why can't she speak a good language, you speak your good language, we speak our good language, boo-boo-boo. and a political nation is not a nation in which, well, again , it is beautiful, now i will explain that it is easier for you to explain with jewish examples, because you do not perceive. on himself, so to speak don't be offended, i'll explain: i once wrote an article: a ukrainian jew is like a rare bird, i said, what is a polish jew? he is a jew who may or may not go to the synagogue , may or may not know if he goes, but he usually knows the polish language, reads polish poets, he may even consider the poles who live next to him to be anti-semites, but he can definitely to talk with them about all polish cultural or everyday problems, he lives in their world, and what is a jew in ukraine? well, he can also go to the synagogue whether or not to go, to believe or not to believe, to have any

interest in jewish culture or not, and what begins next, he speaks russian, not ukrainian, as a rule, well, if he is not from galicia, relatively speaking, but somewhere from the dnipro or from odesa, he is russian -speaking, the great russian culture, oh, it is almost ours, well, not ours, well, still ours, but there and that is all ukrainian jews, not ukrainian, we saw ukrainian jews only when the ukrainian political nation, and i do... i remember very well when i met ivan fedorovych drach, in the late 80s, early 90s, i ran in like this, oh, i was doing some kind of interview, and i said, oh, i dream to ivan fedorovych that people of all nationalities in ukraine, both jews and tatars , and the armenians will speak in the ukrainian language, and he looks at me and says: "well, vitaliy, it is possible to somehow make it so that at least the ukrainians themselves will speak first." and i... i suddenly realized that this is a political

nation, you see, a political nation may not be effective, but it is important that it should be, so that all of us live on these lands as we do here of ukrainians, considered themselves ukrainians, not nevsky, and this is question number one, question number two, about liberal russia, your love for the ukrainian people does you honor, but it seems to me that you do not understand them very well, liberal russia will never absorb ukraine for the simple reason that liberal russia can never have great authority among the ukrainian people, the most popular politicians of the ukrainian people until the moment when we were attacked were boris, volodymyr putin and oleksandr lukashenko, and not any liberal russia, but boris yeltsin or some liberal russian politicians have never enjoyed the great love of the ukrainian people , this will continue to be the case, believe me, because when we talk about a political nation... this is not a liberal political nation, i'm sorry, so malatynin can come and gather a narrow

circle listeners and viewers, you can even go there to watch it, but believe me, the majority of people who live in some conventional place, odesa, are absolutely not interested in any latin language and all these other people, are not interested, the russian-speaking intelligentsia may be interested, but again, if we build a ukrainian-speaking world with you, the same thing that unites us with the russian liberal and illiberal intelligentsia, the commonality of language, will disappear, because you and i go to polish thinkers or cultural figures, we listen to them without a translator, who listens to them with a translator, but they cannot absorb us, because they are foreigners, all people whom a huge number of ukrainian audiences listen to on youtube today, they listen to them because they understand what language they speak, imagine if they were people who would speak... english or polish, they would say the same thing with subtitles , whatever their audience would be, and yes, oh, any

expert from bahrain who speaks russian , any colonel there who once- then i saw putin's shoes under my pillow, for the ukrainian people it is already a great authority, because barin, barin will not lie, and this is what will go, go away, that is, how will the russian language be inferior to ukrainian? russian civilization is culturally ukrainian, so it will be inferior, this a completely normal process, and to be honest, i do not really imagine the emergence of some liberal russia that will rule russia itself, well, again, i lived in russia for 20 years, i noticed that liberal russia is absolutely not, i will say this, not ashamed with its marginality, it is even considered a kind of advantage, that's how we are here. in moscow, oh, oh, and you, do you know what they are like there in

ivanovo, oh, well, we will never go there, i don’t care , i’m you, you know, says my colleague, who worked for 30 years at liberal radio station in russia, i just now, she she hasn't lived in russia for a long time, only now is she beginning to understand what a terrible country it is, i've never traveled, i'm like you're not used to it. in georgia, i told this to my moscow acquaintances: my god, you went to medvedkovo by subway to, well, you are just a hero, that’s just it, and these people flew to brazil to antarctica, but they had never been to medvedkovo and were never going to, i no longer i'm talking about some connection there, my god, what, horror, horror, so you will understand that this is not the

audience that can lead the country and not the an audience that can absorb ukraine. perhaps this can explain the current silence. elites, that they simply do not perceive themselves as a part, are not perceived absolutely, and they are very surprised when we perceive them, i congratulate you, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already come to the snake itself. the following shots may shock you. news from the scene. live drone attacks, kamikaze. political analytics. objective and meaningful, there is no political season, exclusive interviews, reports from the hottest spots the front shot, liberty life, frankly and impartially. you draw your own conclusions. verdict with serhiy rudenko, from now on in

a new, two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests - foreign experts. inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion at any time of the day with the help of a telephone survey, switch on and switch on, the verdict with serhii rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 for espresso. immediately, the maidan just won, conditionally, only yanukovych escaped , khadarkovskii came there immediately, you remember that, and what imperial things, and when i tried to talk about it, everyone looked at me as a person who simply does not understand how there is it is important to have this dialogue, i say, well , you can have a dialogue, but these people will not do anything for you, they cannot, even if, actually, it is a question of impotence, and now there are a lot of all these good russians around the world, in fact, who the boundaries of people spread like mice and at the tail end of ukrainian history,

because some of them fled from russia as they did not agree with the regime and the beginning. know how to talk about how, how they imagine , what ukrainians need to do in this war, and i actually always want to ask them in these cases, i simply do not discuss with good russians, nor with bad ones, i simply do not i want to have no contact, it's a hygiene issue, but always, well , if i wanted to ask them something, i'd ask them why they don't go home and clean up all the crap they've... allowed for so many years to build up there, why don't they do a big cleaning at home, they will spend a lot of time on that housework, to at least realize how they all together allowed the formation of a new nazism in their country and raised a dictator, nothing of without doing so, so really this is a question about

the powerlessness of the elites, and even i don’t know if it is correct to use the term elites in relation to this layer of thought, i, well, i do not agree with it, i also have a serious remark about what i heard, the world in fact and attitude to peoples, it is a little more complicated than it seems at first glance, i would just like to recall how actively the enslaved peoples of the soviet union in 1968 reacted to the fact that their children entered... prague, or how acutely the enslaved peoples of the soviet union, how acutely showed their internal resistance to the imperial narrative and reacted to what was happening in afghanistan, and no one can say that no one knew, because they told how they killed, how they looted, and i saw people and

talked to them who participated in therefore, and for example, the people of lviv are beautiful. the people of lviv, they, some of them fulfilled their international duty, the others, so to speak, simply fulfilled their military duty, and only a small part of the people in the former empire dared to do what is called an act, when they left, after that they were arrested, yes, well, i don't want to analyze nationality, but there were such people, and in my opinion. the idea, the key, or the correctness of the approach is that we should become self-sufficient for ourselves when we are not needed, well, take it, for example, there is a certain spanish , well, forgive me, of course, there is spanish latin in quotation marks, well, we don’t know about it, it can trouble someone in catalonia, but we

don’t know about it, we don’t know about its existence, it’s the same here here, the catalans know everything about it, and yes, that is why our task is to shape our intra-ukrainian discourse, to call out those people to whom we will listen, because the key story... this is also going back to the events of a century ago, this is an apology nihilism it killed, nihilism killed people much more than imperialism, because nihilism instilled non-acceptance and denial, nihilism struck at the foundations of what is called human european civilization, and the most striking manifestation of the nihilists were the bolsheviks. we hang the landlords on... our beards, and i also see how the ukrainian intra-ukrainian discourse, it becomes hysterical, neurotic, that is, we very often abandon what is called, well, a specific ukrainian

culture, the attitude towards the world, when we talk about the herbalist , which needs to be cut, i i completely agree with that, and paradoxically, for over 300 years , the representatives of the russian empire and the bearers of the russian ... discourse cut the ukrainian herbalist, they cut it, and it still did not work, and therefore, in my opinion, i sincerely believe that the task of ukraine - it is not just to build a raft or put up a fence, the task is to support what is called an internal ukrainian elite, which would make it impossible, unnecessary to have a discussion with any latin language , it is not interesting to discuss, no one will come until it is interesting, then it will work. as for the possible coexistence on the same continent , i don't know the simple answers, there are no simple

answers, what the german nation did in some pathetic 30 years, when it threw the continent into ruins, just like that, just like crazy emperor wilhelm, just like that- completely crazy... corporal of everything, but here the key task is not how we will behave, but with whom we will talk, what processes should be carried out in order for this dialogue to be possible someday there in 20, 30 years. i don't know what huge efforts have to be made, but we have seen similar examples. and one, and the beginning of it, it is called denazification, when everything associated with nazism is for. so it was in relations with france, between france and germany, and the french have not forgotten everything, it was in relations between poland and

germany, yes, because millions of people were killed by the nazis, and millions of people were killed by people who were forced to become collaborators on the territory of poland, that is, millions of people were killed, that is, not during the war, but simply killed, that is physically, as in... and this is very serious, and this is a huge trauma for the whole continent, but we see what is called the european union, but the key story is a recipe that can be used, except for the gallows , for denazification, this is a rhetorical question i would like to voice for everyone, thank you, i had a slightly different remark, i would like to remind you that the russians. political revenge was stopped three times in 1991 in august, when we had practically no real resistance, to the actions of people who wanted to

return everything to the soviet union, in 1993 year, when there was actually the same attempt at nazi-communist revenge, and in 1996, when communism almost would not have won the russian presidential election, i assure you that if one of these attempts had succeeded, all that we we have it just started earlier and it is not known what would have happened to us in the situation in which we were then, so maybe we should thank these people that they at least moved this revenge a little and gave us the opportunity to at least become some kind of state, imagine itself, russia's attack on ukraine in 1996 or 1998 year, and what happened to our population then, i 'm not saying that we remember what happened during the war, in 2000, indeed, it was already a united revenge, prepared in lubyanka. so no one could stand against him, those who tried ended up in prisons, like the same khodorkovsky, so i wouldn't, they lost, we haven't lost yet, we have a chance to win, because they have a state , they lost theirs, but in

this situation... to send them home is like sending german anti-fascists to the reich, so willy brandt entered the to berlin in the uniform of the norwegian army, and then became federal chancellor and knelt in front of the monument, a victim of the warsaw ghetto uprising, without willy brant, this kneeling would not have been possible, and there would not have been that german nation, which we now know, a nation that repents for a crime, by the way, one must understand that the germans of the first post-war years did not repent for anything for 30 years, well, that is... that everyone dissociated from them, repented, internally no, the change of generations was needed, and so here, i don't, i also don't think that we have all the time to discuss with the russians about what we should do, that's the mistake, what's wrong with us, i discuss with russian experts on a large number of platforms for one simple reason, i don't ask them what i should do, i tell them what to do, what about i tried to speak.

i am gathering the authority that i have gained there for decades with the russian-speaking audience, i will tell you honestly, not in russia itself, in russia itself i always have an audience of no more than 10, 15, 20% of the total, even russian-speaking audience, they don’t like me there, i i know why, well, but i don't i am going to give the authority i have among the russian-speaking audience to global education to solovyov and kiselyov for the simple reason that i understand the authority of american jewish organizations there, the authority of people who live there, the opportunities of people who live in israel, vote there don't vote for their people, i want those people to be on the good side, because if we lose the dialogue with them, we can lose the dialogue with those who push the buttons to help ukraine in congress, who vote for us in the european parliaments, because these are all voters, it doesn't matter what language the voter speaks, it matters who he votes for, if i could discuss

in english in the same way or not? in french or german, i would also do it to the same extent, it’s just that my linguistic fate has turned out the way it has, i will study, thank you, maybe i will make a small remark about the existence of enslaved peoples and their ethical choices, that , what you, antina touched on, of course, there is no black and white here, and these are quite complex mechanisms, and it is also difficult to evaluate from the side, but i have, for example , a very intimate small example, which for me is defining in my biography, my father in 1968, as a young soldier in military service, refused to go to czechoslovakia, and this had almost catastrophic consequences to the whole family , many decades ahead, and nevertheless, this is the ethical choice that i grew up with, and it shaped me to a large extent, and now

here ... my father, having survived two strokes, he does not speak very well, but he, when speech began to return to him, he also returned to at that moment and said that he always wondered why he did it, and he said that he did it because he thought it was right, and now he still thinks that it is for this, so that i am not ashamed of his way , it's a very personal story, it's not really a universal recipe, but i really... believe, maybe it's a rather idealistic vision, and yet, i really believe that the small ethical choices of people in authoritarian regimes, within authoritarian regimes, even if it is a threat or some apparent harm to them, they still have consequences in the future, like a butterfly effect, those people can grow out of them, who will later break the backbone of this regime.

mrs. yevgenia, i would like to ask you for a rhetorical question or for your reflection, i am the only one who, when i was listening to both vitaliy and kateryna, and returning anyway, since we do not have much time left, returning to our main topic about the maidan, i think about how interesting human nature is and what... how amazing is the ability, in particular, of ukrainians to ignore so many danger signals for so many years, i think about this and i think about what i remember, i remembered it just now, when we were talking, when we were talking about the annexation of crimea, and when we were talking about the fact that everything was about the war that started later, i will remember...