the territorial question by saying goodbye to the entire population that lives in the restored territories and is not really needed, perhaps for the future construction of the azerbaijani state, and this is accepted, so why does russia not expel the separatists from those lands that it considers part of historical russia? of course, we can say that, unlike karabakh, we are protected by international law, well , we can enjoy this opinion, because russia spits on it from the bell tower of ivan the great on this international law and on whom it protects. russia believes that everything force decides, only later, after force decides, it is possible to agree on a new border, so to speak. and it is important that people cannot, cannot extrapolate what is happening around them in a real situation. another great example, which already applies , i think, to the world's reaction to the events that took place, which, which... i saw now that i

woke up and looked, why the israeli security forces were not prepared for such a massive attack by hamas, because special services all the time explained that the terrorists were from hamas are not economically interested in attacking israel, and therefore nothing of the sort will happen, this is roughly the same as what the west has been explaining to us all the time and we have been explaining to ourselves, well , russia cannot start a war, it is not economically interested, and when i told my german friends that the war would start in... a week after nord stream 2 was completed, they looked at me like i was an urban lunatic. people still cannot understand, this is also a sign of this political nation that we got and the world we live in, that for many people's economic interests mean little when it comes to fulfilling their schizophrenic fantasies, and we too need to learn to live in a world of such realities. and that 's the end of this thought, a political nation is a very good thing, in which world does this political nation live, internally in the world of its own.

ideas about life and outside in the world ideas about what can expect from this political nation, these are the next questions, rhetorical, yes, i would ask you to ask another, perhaps rhetorical question, i really like how you put them formulate, and maybe i will just briefly add, i will literally just continue what vitaly spoke about, he absolutely gave an ingenious formulation about a political nation out of fear, and this is exactly what happened to us. in fact, and this is happiness in unhappiness, let's call it that, in fact, i also very well remember the times of the late yanukovych in front of the maidan very well, emotionally, energetically, it was some such thick non-electrified air that does not move, in which it is impossible to breathe and and it is not clear whether in principle there is any future and how to formulate it, and i remember very well there... publications, public statements

of some of our intellectuals who said that it might be easier for us to give donbas there, for example, from russia and build some kind of normal ukraine without it, i.e. all the moments when it was easier to follow the path of non-resistance, without making an effort to get to know each other and understand how to work with internal problems. and actually, when the war started, first in its crimean-donbass phase, and now finally, we were mixed up, and we finally got to know each other, and understood that the most important value is actually being ukrainian, all other differences are what theoretically should be smoothed out by a good and political education. a culture with which

a political nation should live, and we always lacked a little of this, well, well, because there was no opportunity, and again, we talked about all these russian influences, and the erosion that was brought here from the inside for a very long time, very systemically, so actually, well, the 2019 vote , yes, it is just a manifestation of the fact that there is a political nation, but there is no political culture, and there is no tradition of responsible thinking, neither is strategizing for the future , that is, no one thinks about it, we will spend, we, we will make such a ridiculous choice, we will try, and if not, then we will make another maidan and we will drop it and do everything, all the bullshit come on sir, like us, as some figures said, whom we have now forgotten a little, and therefore it is now clear that somehow in the time of a great bloody war, a hot phase, when some

new great story opens before us, a cycle of this story, when the world enters in some other big one too, bloody phase, talk about education and system building. culture, it seems somehow a little strange, but all the same, if we try, in particular within the framework of the forum and in general , to think about the future, about writing, rewriting this future, because i have already repeated here several times that writing the future is, in particular, the recipe, i.e., the ingredients from which this future should be built, then we have to think about what we are catastrophically lacking. not only deep knowledge about each other, but also deep systemic knowledge about the world and us in it. i want to add one thesis that i think that what we have, what we faced, not today and not yesterday, but the day before yesterday, what we have to fight with is, if you like, the reactivity of the ukrainian nation and

the reactivity this perception. i always understood this from my own experience, because this was my question even in childhood to many people who said: oh, if we were not persecuted, we would not think that we are jews. you know. and in the time of trouble and in the time of treasure, i think that i am a jew, and when you are not beaten and sine wave, that is, we have some fantastic, passionate periods when people build a state and give their lives for it and try to speak themselves to the world, alternating with periods when it all breaks down against one's own people, about infantilism, very aptly it has been said, and about the unwillingness to work further on... instead of conforming to some convenient slogans and agreeing with someone situationally in the middle, most often we have to agree with russia, but well , there are also other episodes in history that we also know, and that is why i, too, am very much of this i am afraid that in fact, at the moment of some

depletion by the war, resource, psychological, and the world will force us to dialogue, and we ourselves are in it... and partially destroyed, we will somehow drift to this dialogue, and then in fact the next generation will have to be there again, those who are currently 15, 16, 18 years old, will have to start all over again, i am not sure that a political nation can be inherited, except in the case when it is that three-year-old lawn that was watered and cut, and he already arranged so much that... it is very necessary a lot of effort must be made to break it, to destroy it, but all the same, we also know the history of world democracies, parliamentarism, all this came about with a lot of blood and a lot of struggle, and sooner or later something will still make its way from under this lawn,

what there is there shouldn't be, and in fact i always think about the fact that we are talking about victory and about rebuilding after victory, what is victory? what will we call a victory, the exit to the borders of the 13th year, the restoration of the status there for the 91st year, will we go there from xiang to don, what do we imagine as a victory, or just the day when the war will end, and some kind of truce with russia will be imposed on us, in particular by the international community, which, one way or another, will turn into a new war in 5-10 years, when they will come to destroy everything finally... they did not destroy something, taking into account their previous mistakes and building up another wave of mobilization and producing new weapons, so i am coming back, i really don't have an answer, but we see how ukrainian history fluctuates and fluctuates, can be analyzed,

why does this happen, but i actually go back to the question of education, it seems to me that the actual study of history... public speech about this history and about historical analogies, which are very shaky ground in fact, but often give a lot of insights, can, well, a little bit of a buffer to give to the next generation, not to save it from having to do it all over again, but at least to give a little more at the start, i think i interpret it a little differently, because when you talk about a political nation, you somehow analyze it in categories... good or bad, but political a nation is just a political nation, there is a hungarian political nation, it is a political nation , yes, they vote for viktor orbán, or they can vote for someone else, in the pre-war period they generally lived under the rule of the regent admiral horci, but they

were simply hungarians, well, hungarians, well, they are hungarians, well, but you can be a political nation, i'm sorry, interrupt effective or ineffective, a political nation can be effective, it can be ineffective, it's absolutely normal. for any political nation, but the ukrainian political issue nation was that the majority of the population here did not belong to this political nation, did not consider themselves ukrainians as such, but we live there in the cis. and we are there in general, oh , we are khokhly, we don’t know here, and what is it to us, what is the difference, well, what is the difference, why can’t she speak a good language, speak your good language, we speak our good language, boo-boo-boo, and a political nation is not a nation in which, well , again, it is beautiful, now i will explain that it is easier for you to explain with jewish examples, because you do not perceive yourself so to speak and not... let me explain: i once wrote an article ukrainian jew is like a rare bird, i said, what is a polish jew? he is a jew

who may or may not go to the synagogue , may or may not know if he goes, but he usually knows the polish language, reads polish poets, he may even consider the poles who live next to him to be anti-semites, but he can definitely to talk with them about all polish cultural or everyday problems, he lives in their world, and what is a jew in ukraine? well, he can also go to the synagogue, can't he walk. to believe or not to believe, to have some interest in jewish culture or not, and what begins next? he speaks russian, not ukrainian, as a rule, well, if he is not from galicia, relatively speaking, but somewhere from the dnipro or from odesa, he is russian-speaking, great russian culture, oh, it is almost ours, well, not ours, well, still ours, and there and that's all ukrainian jews, not ukrainian, we saw ukrainian jews only when the ukrainian political nation began to form, and i remember very well when i met ivan fedorovych. at the end in the 80s, at the beginning of the 90s, i ran like this,

oh, i was doing some kind of interview, and i said: oh, i dream to ivan fedorovych that people of all nationalities in ukraine, jews, tatars, and armenians will to speak ukrainian, and he looks at me and says: "well, vitaly, well, it is possible to somehow make it so that at least the ukrainians themselves speak first." and i, i suddenly realized that... this is a political nation, you see, a political nation may not be effective, but it is important that it be, so that all of us who live here on these lands of ukrainians, considered themselves ukrainians, not ukrainians, and this is question number one, question number two about liberal russia. your love for the ukrainian people does you honor, but it seems to me that you do not really understand them, liberal. russia will never absorb ukraine for the simple reason that a liberal russia

can never have the great authority of the ukrainian people. the most popular politicians of the ukrainian people until the moment we were attacked were boris, volodymyr putin and oleksandr lukashenko, russia is by no means liberal. and boris yeltsin or something liberal russian politicians have never enjoyed the great love of the ukrainian people. it will continue to be so, believe me, because when we talk about a political nation, it is not a liberal political nation, sorry. so malatynina can come, gather a narrow circle of listeners and viewers, you can even go there to see her, but believe me, the vast majority of people who live in some conventional city of odessa are absolutely not interested in any latin language and all these other people , not interested, intelligentsia a russian-speaker may be interested , but again, if we build a ukrainian-speaking world with you, the same thing that unites us with russian... liberal and illiberal intelligentsia, common language, will disappear, because we follow polish

thinkers or cultural figures, we listen to them without a translator, some listen to them with a translator, but they cannot absorb us, because they are foreigners, all the people whom today a huge number of ukrainian audiences listen to on youtube, they listen to them because they understand, in what language they talking, imagine if it were people speaking english or polish, they would be the same... speaking with subtitles, what audience would they have, and oh, any expert from bahrain who speaks in russian, any colonel out there who once saw putin's shoes under his pillow is already a great authority for the ukrainian people, because barin, barin vrat ne bude, this is what it will go, leave, that is, how will the russian language to give way to ukrainian, russian civilization cultural ukraine. and so it will be to give in, this is a completely normal process , and to be honest, i do not really imagine the emergence

of some liberal russia that will rule russia itself, well, again, i lived in russia for 20 years, i noticed that liberal russia is absolutely not he is not ashamed of his marginality, it is even considered a kind of advantage, well, we are like that here in moscow. oh , oh, and you, do you know what they are like there in ivanovo, oh, well, we'll never go there, i don't care , here i am, you, you know, my colleague tells me. who worked for 30 years at the liberal radio station in russia, i am only now , she has not lived in russia for a long time, i am only now beginning to understand what a terrible country this is, i have never traveled, i have never traveled, i, like you, have certainly traveled from yasenev to medvedkov, хорошее trip, and for a long time, i went to oreh-vazuevo, i still remember

that i needed to buy a guide to georgia somewhere at the medvedkovo metro station, i told this to my friends in moscow. god, did you go to medvedkovo by subway? you're just a hero, it's simple, that, and these people ride and fly to brazil, to antarctica, but they have never been to medvedkov and were not going to, i am not talking about some kind of vyazma there, my god, what, horror, horror, so please understand that this is not the kind of audience that can lead country and not the audience that can absorb ukraine, perhaps this can explain the current silence of the elites, that they simply do not perceive themselves... do not perceive themselves at all and they are very surprised when we perceive them, see this week in the collaborators program , how do the rashists turn the children of donbas into merciless killers? and who prays for

russian soldiers in the city of happiness? on tuesday, december 26, watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko on the espresso tv channel. the verdict with serhiy rudenko will now feature even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusions from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and feedback in a new two-hour format. you can express your... opinion on the evil of the day with a phone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 at espresso.

the maidan just won, conditionally, only yanukovych fled , khodorkovsky came there immediately, you remember that and what imperial things he is - and when i tried to talk about it, everyone looked at me as a human being, who simply does not understand how important it is to have this dialogue, well, you can have a dialogue, but these people will not do anything for you, they cannot. actually, this is a question of impotence, and now there are a lot of all these good russians in the world, who have crossed the boundaries of people like mice, and on tails of ukrainian history, because they , some of them, fled from russia, as they do not agree with the regime, and start talking about how, how they imagine, what ukrainians should

do in this war, and i actually always want to ask them, i just don't discuss well. russian and not with the bad ones, i just don't want to have any contact with them, it's a hygienic issue, but always, well, that is, if i wanted to ask them something, i would ask them why they don't go home and clean up there all that the crap that they have allowed to accumulate there for so many years, why don't they do a big cleaning at home, they will spend a lot of time on that housework, so that at least... their country and raised a dictator without doing anything about it, so really this is a question of powerlessness and... elites and even not, i don't know if it is correct to use the term elites in relation to this layer of thought, well, by the way, i don't agree,

by the way, too i have a serious remark to i have heard that the world is actually a little more complicated than it seems at first glance, and i would just like to recall how actively the enslaved peoples of the soviet union reacted to the fact that their children entered prague in 1900-68, or how strongly the enslaved peoples of the soviet union, how acutely they showed their internal resistance to the imperial narrative and reacted to what was happening in afghanistan, and no one can say that no one knew, because they told how they killed, how they robbed, and i... people and talked with them who took part in that, for example, lviv residents, beautiful lviv residents, some of them performed international duty, others, so

to speak, simply performed their military duty, and only a small part of people in the former of the empire dared to do what is called an act, when they came out , after that they were arrested, yes, well, i don't ... i don't want to analyze the nationality, but there were such people, and in my opinion, the key, whether the approach is correct , that we should become self-sufficient for ourselves, when in there will be no need for us, well, take, for example, a well-known spanish, well , forgive the quotation marks, of course there is spanish latin, well, we don’t know about it, it can trigger someone in catalonia, but we don’t know about it... we don't know about its existence , it's the same here, the atalonians know everything about it, yes, yes, that's why our task is to shape our intra-ukrainian discourse, to express

those people to whom we will listen, because the key story, it is also going back to the events of a century ago, it is an apology for nihilism, killed, nihilism killed much more people than imperialism, because nihilism... instilled non-acceptance and denial, nihilism struck the basis of what is called human european civilization, and the most striking manifestation of the nihilists were the bolsheviks: we hang the landowners on the pope's beards, so do i i see how the ukrainian intra-ukrainian discourse becomes hysterical, neurotic, that is, we very often give up on what is called the ukrainian culture. attitude to the world when we talk about the grass that needs to be cut, i completely agree with that, and paradoxically, the ukrainian grass has been cut for more than 300 years by the representatives

of the russian empire and the bearers of the russian discourse, they cut it, and it still didn’t work, and that’s why, in my opinion, i sincerely believe , that the task of ukraine is not just to build a raft or put up a fence. the task is to support what is called the intra-ukrainian elite, which would make a discussion with any latina impossible, unnecessary at all, what to discuss is not interesting, no one will come as long as it is interesting, then it will work, in terms of possible co-existence on the same continent, i don't know the easy answers, there are no easy answers , what the german nation did for some miserable 30 years, when it threw the continent, well, just, just into ruins, yes

absolutely crazy emperor wilhelm, absolutely crazy corporal, absolutely, but here the key task is not how we will behave, but with whom we will talk, what processes should be carried out in order for this dialogue to be... maybe someday there in 20, 30 years, i don't know which ones huge efforts must be made , but we have seen similar examples, and one, well, the beginning of this, it is called denazification, when everything associated with nazism is condemned, this was the case in relations with france, between france and germany, and the french have not forgotten everything , it was in the relations between poland and germany. yes, because millions of people were killed by the nazis and millions of people were killed by people who were forced to become collaborators on

the territory of poland, that is, millions. people were killed, that is, not during the war, but simply killed, but physically, as in a battle, and this is very seriously, and this is a huge trauma for the whole continent, but we see what is called the european union, but the key story is a recipe that can be used in addition to the gallows for denazification, this is a rhetorical question that i would like to voice for everyone, thank you, i have there was a slightly different remark. i would like to remind you that the russians stopped political revenge three times in 1991 in august, when we had practically no real resistance to the actions of people who wanted to return everything to the soviet union, in 1993, when in fact, the same was the attempt of a nazi-communist revenge , and in 1996, when a communist almost would not have

won the election of the president of russia, i am convinced that if one of these attempts had succeeded, everything we have would have started simply earlier , and it is not known what would have happened to us in the situation in which we were then, so maybe we should thank these people that they at least moved this revenge a little and gave us the opportunity to at least become some kind of state, imagine the attack of russia to ukraine in 1996 or 1998 , and what happened to our population then, i i'm not saying that we remember what happened during the war. in 2000, it was indeed a united revenge, prepared in lubyanka, so that no one could resist him, those who tried ended up in prisons, like the same khodorkovsky, so i would not, they lost , we haven't lost yet, we have a chance to win, because they have a state, they lost theirs, but in these situations he says to send them home, it's like sending german anti-fascists to the reich, so willy brandt entered berlin in uniform of the norwegian army, and then became federal chancellor and stood on

knees before memory. and there would not be this german nation that we know now, a nation that repents for a crime, by the way, one must understand that the germans of the first post-war years did not repent for anything for 30 years, that is, that everyone dissociated from them, repented, internally no, the change of generations was necessary, and so it is here, i do not, i also do not believe that we should discuss with the russians all the time. about what we should do, here is the mistake, in what, i discuss with russian experts on a large number of sites for one simple reason: i do not ask what i should do, i tell that to do to them, what am i talking about, and i am not going to have the authority that i have acquired there for decades among the russian-speaking audience, i will tell you honestly, not in russia itself, in russia itself i always have an audience of no more than 10, 15, 20% of

general even russian-speaking audience , they don't like me there, i know why, well, fine, but i'm not going to give the authority that i have in the russian-speaking global audience in the world to solovyov and kiselyov for the simple reason that i understand authority there of american jewish organizations, the authority of the people there, what are the possibilities of the people living in israel, whether they vote there or not, i want these people to be on the good side, because if we lose... with them, we can lose the dialogue with those , who presses the buttons to help ukraine in the congress, who votes for us in the european parliament, because these are all voters, it doesn't matter what language the voter speaks, it matters who he votes for, if i could just discuss in english or in french or german, i would do it too to the same extent, it's just that my linguistic fate turned out the way it did, i will study, thank you, may i

make a small remark about... the existence of enslaved peoples and their ethical choices, what you, antina touched on, is definitely here there is no black and white, and these are quite complex mechanisms , and it is difficult to assess from the side, but i have , for example, a very intimate small example that is defining for me in my biography, my father in the year 68, as a young soldier of the conscript service, refused to go to czechoslovak. and that was almost catastrophic consequences for the whole family , many decades to come, and nevertheless, this is the ethical choice that i grew up with, and it shaped me to a large extent, and now my father, having survived two strokes, he does not speak very well, but he. ..