also, and he also does it professionally, and one must always be, shall we say, alert. what does cooperation look like within our army, where it is appropriate, where it is possible, whether it exists at all, representatives of christianity, islam, judaism, we understand that the spiritual needs of our people, they can be different, because different creed this is also normal, but how is it , how does it fit together, do you have, relatively speaking, friends, colleagues, and, please, please, friends, colleagues from another faith, another religion, and how does it all get along in one of the army, well, quite recently, i was a chaplain in the command of the territorial defense forces, this is the largest number of chaplains in this type of army, it is about 80 chaplains. in the assistants

who belong to religious communities, and in the service, the chaplaincy service of the territorial defense, the armed forces of ukraine, there are muslims, there are jews, there are representatives of evangelical churches, and i recently created an interreligious chaplaincy council there, yes, to help each other, and, for example, in one of the brigades, the chaplain of the brigade is... he belongs to evangelical christians, this is such a christian direction, faith , there are many orthodox in his brigade, and for example, there it will be christmas soon, and on christmas eve, of course , everyone is used to seeing, even those people who do not go to church, they want to sing christmas carols, they see a priest to sprinkle food with holy water, read a prayer and... of course, he preaches very well

, he knows the word, holy writing, but he is not an orthodox priest, everyone knows that, he invites from the neighboring unit an orthodox priest who together with him, traditionally for orthodox christians, they cover , let's say, the needs that he cannot do and provide care specifically for orthodox christians, as well, for example, we... have a chaplain imam, we also chose a patron of forces there territorial defense , it was necessary to vote, but the patrons of the forces of territorial defense - these were, of course, all representatives, well, christians of the christian community, in general, it is not even all evangelical christians, there is no such thing as honoring the saints, there is no such, there is no such tradition, there is this among greek catholics. orthodox

roman catholics, there are some literati there and even he took an active part, this is our muslim and he has a religious education and he and the orthodox priests gave suggestions in the same way and for sure what we can say when we say today what the ukrainian church is in general - which religious community brings peace, goodness and helps its people. two, almost two years of the great war, and you also have in this war, well, actually since 2014, probably one of the most difficult tasks, eh, in particular and to lead our soldiers on their last journey, understanding... that one of them will now go to battle

and most likely will not return, you also provide this support, then support for their families, who will turn, i have a question, do you work with psychologists, or it is exclusively whether faith helps like that, well, that is, i can't imagine how people take it, how you take it, priests are the same people, they get injured in the same way, they burn out in the same way. they can score some things, that is, it is postponed to health and physical and mental health, of course we have there our such retreats are psychological, when we leave, we talk to each other, support each other, we also use the help of a psychologist, professional, sometimes a psychiatrist or psychotherapist, we also conduct, shall we say, such supervision. for one, how much i am still

stable, do i need to rest, it certainly helps you, your family, and close people, and brothers. and it is important to monitor yourself and what is happening to you, and i think that every priest does this, if someone does not do this, it is necessary to understand that god is sending you a psychologist and close people, through whom he acts to support you, to support you, and also in that there is faith, the faith that god is in every person like you... i apologize if i now crossed the line of something personal, but these are extremely important things, very practical , in my opinion, and now, when we talk about politics, about the military situation, about the situation in the world, almost everyone has come to an agreement

that this war will be difficult and long, and there is no need to enchant yourself with some... already tomorrow borders of the year 91, swimming in the crimea and so on, and it’s not very ethical at all , it seems to me, in relation to both our military and people for whom this is not just a territory, but a home, everyone now reaches this moment already exhausted, in fact until the moment and that’s it to this understanding, and it seems that our, our souls are simply empty, but there is still a long way ahead. eh, what would you advise the military, you work with the military, of course, but also civilians, eh, what are some people doing now, some, some are apathetic, some are disappointed, some are tired catastrophic, who also works with the military or with people affected by war,

someone is terribly angry, so angry that when we talk about commandments, it doesn't work for some reason, what would you advise? commandments work, the main commandment of love, because we will protect what we love, ugh, this is the main commandment, it is the source of our unlimited motivation, i always say that the secret of ukrainians is unlimited motivation, unlimited love, because we are not we can get tired of loving our children, uh, we can't get tired of loving our loved ones, our parents. the example is very simple, imagine that you or one of your

close people is sick, they need the most simple medicines there, aspirin, but we urgently need some vitamin c. we go to the pharmacy, but the pharmacy is closed. and our actions will be such that we will go to another pharmacy, but i would complicate the task and say that in the city of kyiv all pharmacies are closed after curfew or something like that, but she works in the white church, shall we go to get important medicines to the white church, of course we will go, how much no matter what i do, the person who needs it, and when i say, when you stop, the answer is to...be alone until i find a cure, our goal is victory, and the goal of victory, it doesn't matter, it will be tomorrow , the day after tomorrow, we will go for victory as much as we need until we win, and victory, it does not consist of whether

we hold avdiivka, bakhmut or kupyansk, uh, victory can consist of defeats, because.. . don't also have to watch two years of war, total war, 10 years of total war, 10, i would never did not divide this war, and even more, we would say that whether the upa army won, or the unr won, or lost, if we look at the time of the ukrainian people's republic, we can say that it lost, because there was an occupation, a famine, and the destruction of the ukrainian state. culture, but if we are all here and resist, then they won, and if we see the 91st year and the restoration of independence, then we see that it was all not in vain, the struggle of these people was not in vain, was the failure of the orange revolution, but we

made a revolution during the orange revolution dignity, did the revolution on the granite lose, or now we see, these are young young students who came to... the revolution on the granite, today they are very famous people, politicians who influence society, and we see that it was also not in vain, and usually also our struggle , it has been going on for many years, but we will see what the enemy has done, whether the enemy has taken at least one regional center, whether he has carried out the plans that he declared, that in three months they will take the luhansk and donetsk regions, what putin declared, nothing they didn't do it, or ukraine got a big one help at the beginning of a full-scale invasion, did it have such... well, in a moment, powerful, a lot, and of course, you just

have to say to yourself, and everyone should say to themselves how much i will fight, and what motivates me for our struggle, in the i have two grown -up children, and for the sake of their future i will fight to the end, i love my people, my parishioners , military personnel, the earth, our worlds, our christmas, and i want to... to let the carol sound throughout ukraine and temporarily occupied territories, so i will fight until until we win, and we tell the military about it, we always find understanding, and if we really love our people and love our land, then we can speed up the victory in two... let's do it in unity, in uniting into one

to one wash, as military personnel at the front, as well as civilian people who now live in semi-peaceful cities, but this is the elimination of corruption, this is primarily the same continuation of such bureaucratic systems that interfere, this is the judiciary. system and be kinder one to one, and christmas itself teaches us to be kinder to each other, because the one who really loves is invincible. the last question, i promise you, i'm sure, has been asked many times. forgiveness, under what conditions, for how long, and in general, is it possible? coexistence with these people who

, if they did not personally take part in this, but are the source of the trouble that came to our land, because they chose it, because it was they who remained silent, because it was them, well, you can continue and so on, as and when and if, if it is possible, and if we even have to think about it now, we we can think about forgiveness. after the victory, because the punished evil can be said to be forgiven, if the person who committed the crime repents of this crime, understands that he committed a crime, and not only does he ask for forgiveness, but he corrects the crime committed, and when we see that the man is corrected, and the heinous crime that has now been created. with our people, with our land, it will be difficult to forgive

and difficult to correct, but this is decided by the whole society, and you can talk about it and enter into any dialogue after the victory, fair peace, fair victory. thank you for this conversation, serhii dmitriev , chaplain of the military institute of shevchenko kyiv national university, and i hope that... you needed this conversation as much as i did, as of now, we wish you happy holidays, we wish you not to forget the conditions under which we celebrate the next christmas and thanks to whom most importantly we can meet it. thank you, my name is khrystyna yatskiv, see you soon.

i think we can start our panel, so 10 years ago, the maidan decade, the second the maidan, perhaps the third maidan for some, marked the beginning of a fundamentally new cycle that we are all going through now, and i have such fears about this cycle. will not end so easily and will not end without major changes, and here changes are not ukrainian, but also changes at the level of everything. of the european continent , and possibly the whole world, well, but our place, at least in that process, is not only to act correctly, but also to reflect correctly, and accordingly, today our guests will do this great act. today works on panels katryna kalytko, vitaly portnikov, yevgenia kuznytsova. i think that the key

story, well, the key thesis, is when what we call the maidan began. that is, a shift, a change in ukrainian society , which meant a big break with the russian empire, with the russian narrative, with inclusion in the russian cultural and civilizational space, and in general, can the events of the maidan be considered as the formation of a fundamentally new ukraine, the process that as if it formally began in 1991, or maybe it just... materialized or was expressed or manifested itself in 2014 , and we are also going through parts of this big and difficult cycle, i think that each of the participants has his own vision and his own answers, and perhaps additional questions of a rhetorical plan, well, we will start, of course, with

vitaly portnikov , what is wrong with me? that's how things are going, because yes, thank you for all of you coming to listen to us at this important forum, important because i believe that now every event that is happening in ukraine, which shows that we are living, and not we survive, under rocket fire and under drone strikes, this is evidence that... russia's plans to destroy ukrainian statehood and the ukrainian people cannot be implemented, i would still like to start this conversation about maidan in 2013-2014 with some statements of what happened in 90 - those years, which antin said in his

preface, i am sincerely convinced, although it is not true. to say that we supporters of ukrainian independence in 1991 were in an absolute minority in our own country. of course, we can say that the results of the referendum on december 1, 1991, with which we absolutely succeeded, because the overwhelming majority of people were there for the independence of ukraine, but you have to remember that several months before that had passed. in another referendum for the preservation of the soviet union, where also the overwhelming majority of people, not in this region of ukraine, but in all other regions, except for the western lands, were in favor of the preservation of the soviet union. i remember my emotions at the first founding congress of the movement. on the one hand , i was happy to see people who came to

fight for the future of the country, for independence. on the other hand, it hurt me, because before that i went to... the popular fronts of the baltic countries and saw the popular support for what was happening. in tallinn, at the first such congress, i was stunned by how the whole country is preparing for the congress of the people's front of estonia, as the main event in the life of the estonian people. i understood that this was a nationwide movement. in kyiv, at the first congress of the movement, we were in a real aquarium. i remember how i... that in the congress and did not take off the blue and yellow badge that i had on the lapel that was worn by her delegates and participants of the congress, and how they looked at me in the tram in kyiv, as if i were some kind of monster that came out of nowhere, and it was creepy, because i didn't understand how it could be like that at all, and either way, when i say that, i

think you and i understand, it's one thing to declare independence. and it is quite another thing to fill it with a real meaning, that meaning which, in one way or another, is an important part of any state and national construction, and i have always had the absolute conviction that russia is not perceives our statehood as real, and that more or less... the peaceful existence of the ukrainian state will continue until the moment our own attitude to statehood, as unreal, coincides with the russian vision. because russia has always believed that the former soviet republics are just accidental temporary formations, that sooner or later they will become part of the russian world,

that the main condition is that they do not run away, be in the cis, and then in the eurasian union, or somewhere else, and as soon as any of these countries began to move to another side, it was immediately attacked from... from the end of the 80s, in the beginning of the 90s , provocations were arranged in latvia, lithuania and estonia, troops in tbilisi, vilnius, baku, riga, everywhere where it was possible to use force, incitement ethnic and territorial conflicts, which are now continuing to explode with new tragedies before our eyes, as, for example, in karabash, it all started under the soviet union. the transnistrian conflict, abkhazia, south ossetia. we always thought that it did not concern us. after all, as soon as ukraine started a clear movement in the direction, more

in 2004, at first they tried to speak with us in the language of a special sabotage operation, in 2014 they decided to speak in the language of a real war, according to well-known recipes not invented by putin. first we convert. to the state of a disabled person, and if it does not understand , we change the government, well, listen, what we saw in kyiv in february 2022, relatively speaking, azerbaijanis saw in the 90s, when the troops of field commander suret huseynov with russian weapons stood near the walls of baku, because there was an idea that it was necessary to change the government to one loyal to the russians, there... maybe moscow didn't get everything it wanted, but i mean, the recipe itself is the same. and as a result, we came to a great war. again, our problem

is, i would say, a state problem, that the majority of our population never believed in it, did not believe at all in the possibility of russia attacking us. they did not believe that as soon as we choose an independent path of development, it will mean... that we will be spoken to in the language of aggression and destruction, and it seems to me that people in the post-soviet space still do not believe in this, i have seen and already quoted the results a sociological survey in kazakhstan, where 73% of respondents do not believe that russia can attack kazakhstan, and i think that you now believe, you understand that it is all easy, you will think, kazakhstan, yes kazakhstan, where it has not been, so what in this understanding is a real problem, and underestimation of this danger. i would say, not only the state underestimation, but the general national underestimation, which was expressed in the results of the presidential and parliamentary elections of 2019, was finally revealed. as for

the maidan itself and its results, to be honest to put it succinctly, i think that a real event like the construction of a ukrainian political nation began on the maidan, which did not exist before the maidan of 2013-2014. i've always wondered what it's like to be a jew. origins , will ukrainians manage to get beyond the ethnic project in which they have always been received by the russian empire, that ukrainians are exclusively a nation, an ethnic nation, and it has an absolutely clear border into which no one can cross, unlike russians, unlike poles, unlike slovaks or czechs, anyone, and if someone crosses this border, then he is some kind of weirdo, what is he doing there among them, they will trample him now. so, i would say that it was the maidan of 13-14 years that became so destroyed, i was the disappearance of this border. i

always tell how i was at slavko vakarchuk's concert on the maidan and there was dgimen, he sang the anthem at the end, and i looked at my young colleagues standing in front of me, and they were singing this anthem and crying, and i suddenly thought that which, by the way, not a single ethnic ukrainian thought about, i thought that among this group of people there is no not a single ethnic ukrainian, but he is not... but they stand and cry, and this is the birth of a real ukraine, a political nation in which people recognize ukrainian civilizational, cultural, historical, linguistic values, you understand, and such a nation is the greatest a threat to russia, especially when it started from the west and the center to go towards the east and the south, and i think that everything that happened after that and is happening today is the carving out and... the strengthening of this very political nation, a political nation we have it, the state also has only to protect it

and save thank you. thank you, there was another maidan , well, of course we are not talking about the maidan, but there was another maidan in 2004-5, and i remember very well how the decision was made then, a delegation led by the president of poland kwasniwski arrived, and the negotiations continued, and one of the delegates from the european union, we met with him, and he... warned, listen, you will be dispersed tonight, there is already a decision to use force against the participants of the orange revolution at that time, well, i warned my , those who were there at the lutheran, and no one left, everyone started calling and the number of people only increased, this is one moment about how it works, how it works in the ukrainian people, the second moment when we talk about

the attempts of russia or the russian empire to influence one or another people. always the most textbook or the best example was the example of the relations of the russian empire of the polish- lithuanian commonwealth. thus, in the 18th century , a few years before what was called the first partition of poland, catherine ii regularly, through her ambassadors, conveyed very specific demands, in particular, the preservation of the so-called liberum veto, that is... the possibility of any one member of the seimas to block a decision for a law of any importance, both in the house of representatives of the us congress, and we also see this, that is, what was happening, and maybe it is happening now in our parliament, well, what is happening now, i don’t even know what, because there are no live broadcasts, yes, here in the hall is people’s deputy sofya fedina, i think that if something happens, she will be able to tell that

it happens there, that's the key story was... i think, both under yushchenko, and under kuchma, and under yanukovych, these are some or other attempts on the part of the russian empire to impose mechanisms or models that would make impossible a real non-declarative movement in the direction of what is called european or euro-atlantic community, maybe i'm wrong, i want to believe, well, but it manifested itself too clearly in the 18th century, a few years before the first division of things, watered, well, what is called the maidan, what is called the revolution of dignity, also had its own manifestation in the polish cycle, in particular it is about the polish constitution and the essential limitations of the polish government, in the labs, of course, the oligarchy, the aristocratic, yes, and also the russian empire introduced troops and there was also a butch in warsaw. that is, under the leadership

of a russian field marshal, a criminal, in fact, a man with frankly perverted, genocidal inclinations, they drowned the polish suburbs, the warsaw suburbs of prague, with blood. this is also a historical moment, and when we talk about bucha, i also understand that this is not a new story, and they are in this way, maybe really tried to intimidate, psychologically break the people. well, we understand that it doesn't work that way, but it doesn't make it any easier, kateryna kalytko. good afternoon, too, thank you for the opportunity of this conversation, for me actually, when i saw the topic of the discussion, it was a shock that 10 years have already passed since the actual 13.14, the years of this milestone, when everything started, for me

it is all very detailed. like yesterday, and actually one of the significant moments for my identity, it was my third revolution, the first was ukraine without kuchma, the second was orange, of course revolution of dignity, because of my age i did not catch these first significant efforts to build restored ukrainian independence in the early 90s, and in the 13th year i... went with such rather ironic skepticism when student protests began, when yanukovych tried to return in the other direction from european integration, because - well, at one time i saw what ukraine turned into without kuchma, there it still hurts to be broken by a golden eagle, then a rib, during the orange revolution, when the weather changes.