they spoke, and i, i suddenly realized that this is a political nation, you see, a political nation can be ineffective, but it is important that it exists, so that all of us who live here on these ukrainian lands consider ourselves ukrainians, not nevsky , and this is question number one, question number two about liberal russia, your... love for the ukrainian people does you credit, but it seems to me that you don't really understand them. a liberal russia will never absorb ukraine, for the simple reason that a liberal russia can never have a large the authorities of the ukrainian people, the most popular politicians of the ukrainian people, until the moment when we were attacked, were boris, vladimir putin and oleksandr lukashenko, and not any liberal russia, and boris yeltsin or some liberal russian politicians never enjoyed the great love of the ukrainian people, so it will be. in the future, trust

me, because we, when we talk about a political nation, it is not a liberal political nation, sorry, so malatinina can come, gather a small circle of listeners and viewers, you can even go there for her to see, but believe me, the majority of people who live in some conventional city of odessa are absolutely not interested in any latin and all these other people, are not interested, the russian-speaking intelligentsia may be interested, but again, if we will build with you... the ukrainian-speaking world , the same thing that unites us with the russian liberal and illiberal intelligentsia, the common language, will disappear, because you and i go to polish thinkers or cultural figures, we listen to them without an interpreter, some listen to them with an interpreter, but they can't us to absorb, because they are foreigners, all the people whom a huge number of ukrainian audiences listen to on youtube today, they listen to them because they understand what it is...

that is, as the russian language will be inferior to ukrainian, russian civilization, culturally ukrainian, so it will be inferior . this is a completely normal process. and, to be honest, i don't really imagine the emergence of a liberal russia that will rule russia itself. well, again, i lived in russia for 20 years. i noticed that liberal russia is absolutely not, i will say this, not ashamed of its own marginality, it is even considered.

my colleague, who worked at a liberal radio station in russia for 30 years, tells me, i'm only now, she hasn't lived in russia for a long time, she's only now beginning to understand what a terrible country it is, i... i've never traveled, no why didn't you, well, of course, i traveled from yasenevo to medvedkov, nice trip and went to orekho vazuevo for a long time, i still remember that i needed to buy a guide to georgia somewhere at the medvedkov metro station, i told this to my moscow friends friend, my god, you went to medvedkov on the subway to oh, well, you’re just a hero, it’s just that, and these people flew to brazil to antarctica, but they’ve never been to medvedkov and... they were going to, i’m not talking about any there

god, horror, horror, so you will understand that this is not the audience that can lead the country and not the audience that can absorb ukraine. perhaps this can explain the modern silence of the elites, that they simply do not perceive themselves as a part of russia. they are accepted absolutely, and they are very surprised when we perceive them. warning, incredible novelty from unbox tv, super warm and very comfortable alaska style boots, perfect fit, water-repellent material and a feeling of warmth even in 30-degree frost. alaska style boots have a versatile design and practical black color, so they will fit both men and women, sizes 36 to 46, so get two pairs at once, for you and your husband. zippers will ensure a perfect

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russian information attacks from the chronicles of information war project. with olga ley. on monday, tuesday, thursday fr 17:15 on espresso tv channel. verdict with serhii rudenko from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you you can express your opinion on the evil of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 8 p.m. until the 22nd on espresso. immediately, the maidan just won, conditionally, only yanukovych ran away there khadarkovskii arrived immediately, do you remember that, and what imperial things he said? and when

i tried to talk about it, everyone looked at me as a person who simply does not understand how important it is to have this dialogue, i say, well, you can have a dialogue, but these people will not do anything for you. they cannot , even if, in fact, it is a question of impotence, and now there are a lot of all these good russians in the world, who have crossed the boundaries of people like mice, and at the tail end of ukrainian history, because they, some of them, fled from russia, who do not agree with the regime, and start talking about how they imagine what ukrainians should do in this war, and i actually always want to ask them in these cases, i just don't discuss. with good russians, not with bad ones, i just don't want to have any contact with them, it's a hygienic issue, but always, well, that is, if i wanted to ask them something, i would ask them why they don't go home and clean up there's all the crap they

've allowed to pile up there for so many years, why don't they make a big deal for themselves cleaning the house, they will spend a lot of time on that housework to even... to realize how they all together allowed a new nazism to form in their country and raised a dictator without doing anything about it, so really this is a question of the powerlessness of the elites and i don't even know if it is correct to use the term elites in relation to this layer of thought, well, by the way, i do not agree, by the way, i also have a serious remark about what i heard, the world actually. attitude to peoples, it is a little more complicated than it seems, so at first glance, i am simple i would like to recall how actively the enslaved peoples of the soviet union reacted in 1968 to the fact that their children entered

prague, or how acutely the enslaved peoples of the soviet union, how acutely they showed their internal resistance to the imperial. reacted to what was happening in afghanistan, and no one can say that no one knew, because they told how they killed, how they robbed, and i ... saw people and talked to them who participated in such and such, for example, the people of lviv, the beautiful people of lviv, they alone performed international duty, the latter were just doing their military duty, so to speak, and only a small part of the people in the former empire dared to do what is called an act, when they went out, after that they were arrested, so well... i don't want to analyze nationality , but there were such people, and in my opinion the key or

the correct approach is that we should become self-sufficient when we are not needed, well, take for example a famous spanish, well forgive the quotation marks, of course there is spanish latin language, well, we don't know about it, it can trigger someone in catalonia, but we don't know about it... about it, about its existence, we don't know, the same way here, the etalonians here know everything about it, and yes, that's why our task is to shape our intra-ukrainian discourse, to call out those people to whom we will listen, because the key story, also going back to the events of a century ago, is an apology for nihilism, it killed, nihilism killed people much more than imperialism, because no... nihilism instilled non-acceptance and denial, nihilism struck at the foundations of what

is called human european civilization, and the most striking manifestation of nihilists were the bolsheviks. let's hang the landowners on the pope's beards, right? and i see how the ukrainian intra-ukrainian discourse, it becomes hysterical, neurotic, that is, we very often refuse what is called, well, specifically ukrainian. cultural attitude to the world, when we talk about the grass that needs to be cut, i completely agree with that, and paradoxically, the ukrainian grass has been cut for over 300 years representatives of the russian empire, and the bearers of the russian discourse, they cut it, and it still didn't work, and that's why, in my opinion, i sincerely believe that the task of ukraine is not just to build a raft or put up a fence. the task is to support what is called the intra-ukrainian elite, which would

make it impossible, unnecessary at all to discuss with any latin, what to discuss is not interesting, no one will come as long as it is interesting, then it will work, regarding possible coexistence on to one continent, i don't know the simple answers, there are no easy answers, what the german nation did for some miserable 30 years, when it threw the continent, well, simply, into ruin, just like crazy emperor wilhelm, just like that, crazy corporal, just like that , but here the key task is not how we will behave, but with whom we will talk, what processes should be carried out in order for this dialogue... to be possible sometime in 20, 30 years, i don't know how huge

efforts must go, but we have seen similar examples, and one, well, the beginning of it, this called denazification, when everything associated with nazism is condemned, this was the case in relations with france, between france and germany, and the french have not forgotten everything, it was in the relations between poland and... germany, yes, because millions of people were killed by the nazis and millions of people were killed by people who were forced to become collaborators on the territory of poland, that is, millions of people were killed, that is, not during the war, but simply killed, physically, as in a massacre, and this is very serious, and this is a huge trauma for of the entire continent, but we see what is called the european union, but the key story is a recipe... what can be used besides the gallows for denazification, this is the rhetorical question i

would like to raise for everyone. thank you. i had a slightly different remark. i would like to remind you that the russians stopped the political revenge three times. in august 1991, when we had practically no real resistance. those actions of people who wanted to return. everything to the soviet union is clitic in 1993, when in fact the same was the attempt of nazi-communist revenge and in 1996, when a communist almost would not have won the presidential election. rosie, i assure you that if one of these attempts had succeeded, all that we have would have started simply earlier, and it is not known what, what would have happened to us in the situation in which we were then, so maybe we should thank these people that they at least advanced this revenge a little and gave us the opportunity to at least become some kind of state, imagine russia's attack on ukraine in 1996

or 1998, and what happened to our population then? i'm not saying that we remember what was during tuzly, in 2000, indeed, this is already a united revenge, prepared in lubyanka, so that no one could resist him, those who tried ended up in prisons, like the same khodorkovsky, so i would not, they lost , we didn't lose, we still have a chance to win, because they have a state, they lost theirs, but in this situation they say to send them home, it's like sending german anti-fascists to the reich, that's why willy brandt entered berlin in the uniform of the norwegian army, and then became federal chancellor and knelt before. a monument, a victim of the uprising in the warsaw ghetto, and if there had not been v willi brant, this kneeling would not have been possible, and there would not have been the german nation that we know now, a nation that repents for a crime, by the way, it must be understood that the germans of the first post-war years did not repent for anything for 30 years, well, that is, that everyone dissociated themselves from them, repented, internally no, a change of generations was necessary, and even here i do not, i

also do not think that we have to discuss with the russians all the time. about what we to do, here is an error, what is it? i discuss with russian experts in a large number of squares for one simple reason: i don't ask them what to do, i tell them what to do, which is what i was trying to talk about, and i'm not going to gain the authority that i gained there over decades in the russian-speaking audience, i will tell you honestly, not in russia itself, in russia itself i always have an audience of no more than 10-15-20% of the total. even the russian-speaking audience, they don't like me there, i know why, well, fine, but i'm not going to have the authority that i have in to the russian-speaking global audience in the world to give solovyov and kiselyov for the simple reason that i understand the authority of american jewish organizations, the authority of people, what are the possibilities of people

living in israel, whether they vote there or not , i want for these people to be on the good side, because if we are in... a dialogue with them, we can lose the dialogue with those who push the buttons to help ukraine in the congress, who vote for us in the european parliaments, because these are all voters, it doesn't matter what language the voter speaks, it matters who he votes for, if i could debate in english or french or german in the same way , i would do it to the same extent, it's just my linguistic fate yes, as it turned out, i will study, thank you, can i make a small comment? about the existence of enslaved peoples and their ethical choices, what you, antina touched on , certainly there is no black and white here, and these are quite complex mechanisms, and it is difficult to assess from the side, but i have, for example, very intimate such a small example, which for me is defining in my biography, my

father in 68, as a young soldier in military service, refused to go to ... czechoslovakia, and this had almost catastrophic consequences for the whole family, many decades later, and nevertheless, this is the ethical choice that i grew up with, and it shaped me to a large extent, and now my father, having survived two strokes, he does not speak very well, but he, when his speech began to return, he returned to this too moment and said he always wondered why he did so... beat and said he did so because he thought it was right, and now he still thinks it is for this, so that i am not ashamed of his way now. it 's, it's a very personal story, it's not really a one-size-fits-all recipe, but i believe very much, maybe it's quite an idealistic vision, and yet i very much believe that

the small ethical choices of people in... authoritarian regimes, within authoritarian regimes, even if it is a threat or some apparent harm to them, they still have consequences in in the future, like a butterfly effect, those people may grow out of them, who will then break the backbone of this regime. ms. yevgenia, we would like to ask you for a rhetorical question or for... your reflection, i am the only one who, when i was listening to both vitaly and kateryna, and returning, after all, since we do not have much time left, returning to our main, main topic of the program. "i think about how interesting human nature is, and how impressive is the ability, in particular, of ukrainians to ignore so many danger signals

for so many years. i think about this and i think about what i remember, i remembered just now, when we were talking, when we were talking about the annexation of crimea, and when we were talking about the fact that everything was about the war that started later, i remember when i was first in my heard the phrase our crimea, it was in 1998, and it was on the arabat arrow, where my parents and i went to the sea, and there i met a boy from peter, who was 10 years old, and he said to me, a child, so crimea ours, we will take it from you, it was the year 1998, that is, it was this, i often, i often bring up this episode from of my childhood, when... they tell me that this is putin's war, that if it weren't for putin, nothing would have happened, that this is putin's russia and so on and so forth. it was

1998, and it was before any putin, it was before putin even appeared, that is, putin appeared on request. i apologize, well, the statement of the press secretary to the president of the russian federation, that the russian federation does not make any territorial claims to the former. to the former soviet republics for as long as these republics exist to be in an alliance with the russian federation, it was in and it was a statement on behalf of the president of russia, it was made public on august 24, 1991, what other signals do you need, you can ignore it, well , ukrainians taught shevchenko in soviet schools, make love to the black-bearded and not to the moskals, because from the moskals strangers do evil to you, this was not a signal, i do not understand, and i can only imagine what percentage of violators of this commandment are in this hall now. yes,

and it is not for nothing that we talk about the fact that this lawn they tried to cut hair, well how many, almost 400 years, that is, they tried to cut hair, and we understand where they started, they started, oddly enough, from the church, the end of the 17th century, 1688, their task was to... float the ukrainian orthodox church, the second point of their struggle is the destruction of the ukrainian greek catholic church, and this is the so-called church-religious issue, it was extremely important, and we understand how miraculously it is now, how much time has been compressed, yes, that is manages to reverse what they cut or tried to shape in the past. centuries that we are now reaping this slowness, or seeing this, they led a large number of those people who simply cannot be called

priests, but this lasted for centuries, and now we also see historical moments, yes, when the church returns, the ukrainian church in ukraine, this is also an extremely important point, it is possible for a separate discussion, and the fact that the religious, religious... factor will play a much greater role than it does now for us it also appears, well, it's true, thank you, we have literally a couple of minutes left, yes, i remember how in the early 2000s, putin brought to moscow the new chief rabbi of russia, and the person he declared the chief rabbi in the presence of a real chief rabbi, and i always think, well, why does he still have his rabbi, well, after all, what a schizophrenic, well, now i see why, because now it’s... the reclusive chief rabbi sits at all meetings, tells about banderivtsi, answers putin's correct questions, yes, so always, and so from the church, for which it was necessary for the russian orthodox church

to incorporate the kyiv metropolitanate, to the point that in fact they made the ukrainian national church a part of their civilizational world by and large, we have to say that in this territory we were lucky in belarus. they simply destroyed the greek catholic church, to which 90% of the population went there, planted the russian orthodox church there, actually destroyed the belarusian national identity, we see what is happening to belarusians now thanks to this civilizational experiment, why is it so here, so here, and because there was actually a moscow roof created over the ukrainian church, and there was simply an invasion of the russian church, something like in galicia in... that priests from ukraine came here and the ssr, and there simply from the russian empire, it is not the same thing, and here is the result, so i also think

that this is a very serious issue. in 2004, i once had the opportunity to attend a service of god, where the priest directly told the parishioners that they should leave here and vote for yanukovych, well, i can even roughly guess what denomination that priest was, so i can roughly guess, something suggests something, well , everything became obvious to me when the new patriarch kirill, russian? this is how he placed the flags of all cis member states near his throne , that is, he was the first to do something that even putin did not dare to do at the time, and it was an absolutely clear demonstration of intentions, civilizational intentions, and then come to think of it, it’s only the church, no, the church is put first , first the russian church marks the territory, and then this territory is designated in russian a russian tank is coming through the church, everything is very simple, as the ussr flag always had

a globe. which reflects ambitions, and maybe i will just illustrate, very briefly, i have about the globe, just from childhood it was very imprinted in my mind, i even remember this passage, dear bulychova, from his cycle the adventure of the seliznev forest , simple lords, her father was professor seliznyov, who collected animals for the cosmos, and they flew, which means that these exotic animals were collected all over the galaxy, and here they are flying, this is to things that became a cartoon mystery. which some of you may have watched, and in the book they fly in search of dr. virkhovtsev, one of the protagonists, to the planet pataliputra, which is the largest market for exotic animals, and there all the cosmic races have their own hotels, according to their living conditions and their needs, and the human race also has its own hotel there, guess what it 's called, if anyone has read it, maybe you know,

well, it's called the volga. and it is made in the form of a russian terem and a porter there in kosovorodka, and he says when they come to look for dr. verkhovtsev in such a russian language that tell him the opposite, they will continue to break the robots of stolinkov hermits, we will ask him to move out of our esteemed inn, that is, the human race is represented by the russian language and russian civilization, no others, american ... and no others there are no great civilizations that could fly into space in their minds, well, that’s the 15th frame, that’s how it was, i once saw the film captain grant’s children are soviet, no one paid attention to it, that’s why that it was a children's film about how they are looking for captain grant, but one episode began with marko vavchok meeting jules verne, and they know him and the person, the publisher, who introduces marko vavchok to jules verne, says maria oleksandnavinskaya, she

writes verne will never write like that, as ivan sergeovich already committed suicide yesterday in a paris hotel after reading moo-moo. and you and the whole civilian population, that's exactly the circle we need to get out of, because we're still hypertrophying it, you know, we're still we live, and this is an important point that we need to put an end to our discussion on this, by and large, that we should get out of russia from this world, i am just asking for a rhetorical point from yevgenia. i

immediately remembered the joke of my mother, when, when erasym said in dog language to mom why, why, i think we will end our discussion on this humorous note, maybe there is still time for questions, i don’t know, unfortunately, time for there is no question, the time is not spared, the time has ended, i am sincerely grateful to you, dear ones panelists, i am truly grateful to you. greetings to all viewers of espresso, i am the owner and the team.