will certainly start in the new year and it will be fruitful and successful. let's thank our guests, volodymyr fesenko, oleksandr khara, andriy ligavych, thank you for such a very constructive conversation. 1+1 continued the national telethon, at this time we are working in the format of the night watch discussion platform, with me is my colleague, maria vasyliva, i am evanplinsky, and today... with us in the studio are boris thesenhausen, political technologist, congratulations, and timofey brik, professor of sociology and university rector of the kyiv school of economics. today we will try to talk about in which state, in which emotional, in which political-technological state are we entering the 24th year, what happened in the 23rd, and what are we at this difficult break, what to expect, what to want and to what, how to react?

we are going to analyze today on the air, well, this is what the science of sociology studies, that is why i propose the first mr. timofiy to answer this question, which actually came from yevgeny, who are we after two years of war, what has changed in us, because it seems to me that the changes were really fundamental, but we all judge by our surroundings, our friends according to people in social networks, but this is not a relevant sample, as sociologists say, that is, one that corresponds to reality, but you just have objective data, that is, a picture, such a more objective growth of these opinions, since we have changed, what is happening to us well, sociologists measure a lot of different parameters, so it's difficult to answer your question right away, but i would say that ukrainians were very strongly...

rallied during the great war and continue to be rallied. at the end of the year , different firms are sociological, respectable firms issue their reports. and sociologists pay attention to such questions as trust: do ukrainians trust the institutions of power, do ukrainians trust other ukrainians, volunteers? and sociologists are also studying how devoted ukrainians are to the idea that the state must be defended, that one must be a part of... the nation, and we see that since the invasion, the great war began, all these indicators, they are within the first year jumped very much, and it was just such an anomaly, because usually ukrainians just don’t trust others, they don’t trust the authorities, but we we saw a fantastic increase in trust and a fantastic sense of belonging to the ukrainian nation, now time is running out, we see that these parameters are falling a little, that is, people... nevertheless, they are getting a little tired,

nevertheless, i have to say that these indicators are still pores are still very large, even after they fall, they are still large. another study was, you know, very interesting, about charity , it turns out that ukraine took the first place among countries precisely in terms of the level of charity, we understand what is meant primarily in in our case, these are primarily contributions to the armed forces of ukraine, but nevertheless we are talking about the program. people's desire and simply to give something, to donate to a cause that people consider important. yes, i would like to emphasize here that there are international comparative studies, and for many years, against the background of other european countries, ukraine looked like what was called a weak civil society. and it depends on how to measure. usually there were very few ukrainians.

part of some organizations, there are dozens, there 10-8% of ukrainians said that they are a part some ngo or some group, and in accordance with european standards, there they just look at formal participation, if you participate in , well, in an organization, it means that there is a strong civil society, and that is why ukraine was criticized for a long time, that we are the type with weak institutions of civil society society, but what is interesting: ukrainians are unique in that we may not have a formal affiliation to a party or an ngo or to some club, but individually we do a lot on our own, people volunteer, people donate, people communicate, support each other, and according to these indicators of such informal participation, we are one of the largest in europe, and it is very interesting to compare ukraine with other countries in this way, mr. boris, what are your observations

on the change in society, and here you are, as a political technologist, i would like to hear from you how you see this change from the conditional beginning of the war, when the whole country had unlimited confidence. to the politicians and all the points of non-convergence of opinion have disappeared and among the society among the politicians to the state in which we have come and where we have come today in our political plane? the fact is that i will tell you even more, now, in principle , some politicians have almost started election campaigns, it is noticeable, it is noticeable in the market, it is noticeable that they are walking...

in the dynamics should be, if we go to the point the same day an hour ago, let's remember what happened then, then putin announced a partial, so-called mobilization, but in fact we know that it is not partial, then the russians were expelled from kherson, then the russian front collapsed in the kharkiv region, that is, we were then on the rise, it seemed to us, we were about to chased them away, at that time no one discussed the amount of financial aid at all... it just went, echelons with military equipment went to ukraine, and although there was a blackout in the country, yes, but remembering the last days before last year's new year, people with flashlights in the dark, they went to shopping malls, bought gifts with the hope that this is the last difficult winter, now it is completely

different, i will tell you more, then ukraine was not as protected by air defense systems as it is now, that is, there is a sense of security according to the idea of ​​rocket attacks ... launched shahedov, but yes, then we understood everything perfectly, then the mass shelling by the russians began, just the idea of ​​survykin, but still there were people on such a rise, a little later there was a tank coalition, a little later they told us that there would be planes right now, well that is, this is what was then, now what happened, well , in fact, global changes in the front line did not occur during this year, the attitude towards ukraine, ukraine as...

to take into account, there is a concept, well, let's say, with each year, well, of complex fatigue, then i'm not talking about it, there are ukrainians, no, no one ukraine is not tired, by the way, this is a widespread myth and the russian information and psychological operation, that is, judging by the amount of aid, yes, it has decreased a little, but everything is fine, yes, it is more difficult to receive, but we understand why the internal aspects of our overseas partner, election hour well, we also understand everything very well, it seems to me that somewhere we have slipped a little in diplomacy, and i even know from what moment, this is the nato summit, when we said a little pretentiously, maybe not quite diplomatically, and what are we not in nato, then the minister of defense

of great britain told us, in general, we could say thank you, well, we, well, not us, our leadership there, let's say so. began to conduct aggressive diplomacy, including with our friends, partners from poland, well, that is , as a communicator, as a political technologist, i think that it was probably not the best solution to aggravate relations, to file lawsuits at the wto, especially at the time of the election campaign in poland, which gives the opposition trump cards, well, this is my opinion, well, in general, returning to...

ukrainians are much more optimistic than it seems, if you monitor our social networks , because a recent survey by the democratic initiatives foundation showed that 88% of ukrainians... believe in the victory of ukraine, while 58% of these 88 believe that it will happen soon, and only 5% doubt where this optimism comes from, this is a very interesting story , and this is actually a question for both of you, i ask you to finish, boris, your opinion, and then mr. timofiyu, don’t forget to react to this too, please, but also to me it seems that, let's say, the decrease in degree is such

you know, people actually hoped that they weren't doing it for nothing, they were thinking about it, that's how they relied on some statements of the head of military intelligence, it's important if what should have been thought, we were told this, we believed it, yes, but here it is difficult to find this middle ground, you know, we must have a ministry of propaganda, it must be real, even in order to solve mobilization issues. we should have motivational videos, we should have the right approach at the level of studying the same sociology there painful

points, how to attract , how to attract, how to stimulate people , we should have all this, we should have all the boards closed, remember the offensive guard project, how did it start well, come, new form, banding, best instructors, it started well, what happened, that is, the ministry of propaganda, it should work directly in this regard, especially during the war. that they will be met here with flowers, not understanding in principle who ukrainians are, there will be no resistance, now they think that

by continuing the war, continuing the shelling, they can break the will of ukrainians. mr. timofiyu, in your opinion, where does this optimism come from, which sometimes seems not even very justified? well, yes, i will comment and take a little step back, you quoted a study, in that study there are a lot of different numbers, a lot, because sociologists ask a lot of different questions, and... this study was done by the democratic initiative foundation and now at the end of december and last year at the end of december, that is, we can even compare the results. and there was another question, what do you think, in which horizon, here when will the war end? and last year , far fewer respondents thought that the war would last a long time. around there, if i'm not mistaken, 20% said that the war could end in a year or three, that is, in some long-term perspective. at the same time, this december, the number of such people has increased, already

30% say that maybe in a year, three years, and moreover, respondents appeared who say that the war may end in 5 years, that is, it was added , that is, ukrainians are basically changing their views, i think that there is already a critical mass of people who, well understand that we live in this difficult situation, that it can be for a long time, accordingly, we have to somehow change our life plans, life strategies, and now, answering your question, where do the resources for optimism come from, it can be taken, usually sociological studies show that the resource is usually taken from several sources, the first is exactly what i was talking about, that when you already have a better understanding of the situation, a planning horizon, then you already plan your future a little more calmly, and this is the source of such ... well a normal attitude to the situation, even to a critical situation. the second source, and we

can see it from other studies, is that this feeling of belonging to the national identity works powerfully, and in international studies it is called rally around the flag in english, that is, grouping around one's flag, grouping around one's identity, those ukrainians who right here... believe that the ukrainian state is important, the ukrainian nation is important, they continue to believe that us, our country it is necessary to defend, and there will be a victory, that is, this kind of unity is political. it still plays its role, and yet, i know that ukrainian society can often be polarized, we often criticize each other, different politicians, different institutions, but in general there is such a statistical connection, we see it in others studies that if ukrainians are satisfied with the course of, well, something that

is happening in the economy, or with individual reforms, or on the ground, maybe some services are provided there, that if you have... the feeling that the state still cares about you, in in the future, it increases your affiliation and desire to protect the state, well, marketers call it delayed demand, yes, when something accumulates, which then comes out, it is the same now, i would like to ask further about where this long-term sociological study of ukrainians is leading, but before that, let's take a short break, a few minutes, look at the material of our colleagues and come back. chevrons approaching victory. i dream of

a playstation 6, but my anger is stronger. i really dream about a dog. i can still wait, and i am waiting on a backpack, but this year i won't live without gifts, to us, the scenes of the dream, a million for a drone, a million for a drone, we want to collect, a million nadron, a million nadron, to give to ours, so that ours will win the war, i am gifts. i will not take, to us as a combat quadron, a million nadron, a million nadron, so that our people win the war, i will not take gifts, to us as a combat cartridge, a million natron, a million natron, a million natron, we want to play, privatization is important for ukrainians,

because this is the creation of a new one from the old one, look, the state has old property, doesn't it? generates income, so she... sells it to an entrepreneur who wants to create something new. this is how new businesses, jobs and profits appear. privatization from the fund of state property of ukraine. we have, we care, we develop. let's go. look. the story of a legend. this is simply a masterpiece, because everything is unique. naturally. 500 tons in weight. she is beautiful, elegant. until the last minutes, my god, what a horror, as if at the funeral of a close friend, the plane that captured the hearts of the whole world, almost 80 m, this is the wingspan of a monster, this plane even dedicated poems, and which will certainly be

rebuilt, will rise from the ashes, after the victory we will start working. a dream, it must go astray. documentary project of ludmila gavrilyuk, wings of dreams. today at 11:10 p.m. 1+1 will continue the national telethon, the night watch project is with you, we continue to discuss the 23rd year and talk about... about a year of change, hope, unpredictability, because the events of this year have shown that everything we planned at the end of 22 it went a little wrong, and mr. timofiyu, i would like to continue the topic that we started before the break to discuss where we are going, sociologists in the first months of the war said that for

sociologists what is happening in ukraine from the point of view of professional research professionals is a unique... they see how we are changing, where we are going in the 24th year, what will happen to us from the point of view of the fact that hopes for a certain justice in society have also increased, dissatisfaction with corruption has increased, dissatisfaction with certain things, trust in the same national telethon that everyone watched around the clock in the first months. where we are moving and even the number of people who believe that ukraine is moving in the right direction has decreased, this is also a very important factor, it is not very significant there by some percentages, but nevertheless the dynamics are so. i will return to this, but for the beginning, for the introduction, i will also say about quite important indicators that sociologists measure, we rarely talk about it, it is generally our

emotional state, how much stress we experience, and there is an institute of sociology at the academy of sciences of ukraine, and they regularly measure just the level of stress and stress resistance among ukrainians, and there is such a... not easy technique, they measure your feeling, and maybe even indicators of depression, ptsd, this is not a diagnosis, but if you answer on this questionnaire, you can at least understand whether there is at least, let’s say, some hint that you might have ptsd, and you can see that ukrainian society is very traumatized, approximately 40% of respondents have signs of ptsd, which in compared to others countries, it is very high. indicator, in other countries it is usually from 6 to 12%, that is, it is very serious, and i think that we also need to remember that we, as a society, are very

traumatized, we are nervous, we are stressed, and that we must also be careful when we communicate with each other, because this is the state, or we answer the questions of sociologists, the questions of sociologists, the questions of neighbors, the questions of, ah, i don't know, just a random person on the street. we must remember that we live in difficult times, and we must be kinder to each other and lash out at each other and conflict. and to answer your question further, i still want to defend the thesis that despite the fact that some indicators are falling, as you said, the number of people who believe has fallen, well, it has decreased a little, not so much that it is radical, but everything - still there is, and trust in formal institutions has also decreased, there in the parliament, in the president, etc. and nevertheless, although there is a decrease, the numbers still remain quite high, historically for ukraine we are living in a very strange period,

because now these are the largest indicators of trust and optimism, even after they fell, they still historically remain quite high for ukraine, so i wouldn't be so saddened by this fall. because there is still a very powerful resource there, mr. boris, i would like to ask you to explain the technology that we have been experiencing in recent months, which we understand is only gaining momentum, the technology of reconciliation with russia, which they are trying to implement not only in ukraine, to implement all over the world, spreading these messages, which they say, well, isn't it time to somehow find compromise, it is possible to lose the territory , to keep what is there, well... and all these things, from the point of view of political technologies, how the integration of such messages in society and in the world works in the conditions of war, and how

far we have come in the fact that russia is integrating this message drop by drop into the world, for some reason i feel the name of arestovich right from your words, but somehow the question blows, let's let's do it first conceptually, then if...

maybe it's not signed , and it was discussed and approved, but putin waved all the time paper, i was deceived, these are the points that you approved, so they had the feeling that ukraine could somehow go there for negotiations, recognize non-bloc status, which for us is like death, because i am sure that if ukraine does not join nato, russia never leaves military gestalts unclosed, it returns, chechnya to everyone -

crowbars must appear who will become the conductor of this idea, we must put up with russia, pay attention, people, when they are talking to each other, they say, here portnikov or aristovych said , let's do it like this, that is, they refer to an authoritative person for themselves, that's when these conductors of the idea appear, then the idea begins to live completely differently. it seems that it just doesn't work with aristovych, because he said so much the opposite a year ago that what he says now just... doesn't come in, i see how thousands of people come to him in the comments and write him some curses and write to him indicating that you are there for a year that's why he said the opposite, please explain what a person does with his reputation, what exactly happened there, it can be explained somehow, well , nothing comes to my mind, except that some conditional mr. abramovich simply bought him with dirt and gave him such a role. you know, when it comes to alexey

, we know him personally, and we even collaborated somewhere there, well, a little, the point is that when he speaks, it is clear that he himself believes in what he says, you know, we just paid money there , the man there answered the camera, something, everything, okay, goodbye, here it is clear that he directly lives by these ideas, he is actively experiencing what happened, and alexey, being here at the information game.

well, coverage, he has to do something so sharp, and as you know, classic goebbels , he tells some amazing lie in general, which will be discussed, but he plays it now, for example, about the fact that ukraine should not just make peace with putin , and to file a joint lawsuit against the west, this is the biggest thing for me, especially against the background of the shelling that russia is currently carrying out. he said that after the mariupol maternity hospital there would be a completely different war, after he told about the burnt bodies of women in buch and so on, mr. timofiyu, how much is society at this stage, at this stage of the war and in this state in which we there is how vulnerable we are to such messages, how much we or we have become wiser, how now it appears to be rejected, whether we are tired, well, it is impossible to hide it,

people are tired of all the time. stress, yes, we are ready to look for something, but to what extent these russian messages can, can to get into some, in order to react, i have to say a few sociological terms, but i will explain them for all viewers, so don't worry, let's make such an excursion back in the 90s, sociological studies of independent ukraine began in the early 90s , and the first ukrainian sociologists, there are khapanin's words, they studied such a phenomenon called social anomie, and it is a very important phenomenon to explain what is happening now. social anemia is a situation when here is one society, rules, norms, laws disappear, here is the soviet union disappears, and a new society is only emerging, and people still do not understand these new rules, new norms, how we should live, according to which laws, how to interact with each other.