equals, and there they solemnly put away their ultimatum, that you withdraw all the troops from the territory of nato countries, well, from poland there, slovakia, romania, but leave us the territory that we did not conquer, and there we are, and there is the zaporizhzhia station we leave the nuclear one behind us, that is, this is the logic of the occupier, and it is possible for... it looks like this, but i assure you that after the summer of 24, everything will be different, and what will happen in the summer of 24, well, because, sorry , because now they are sure that they hold the occupied territory, even think that they can move further, they threaten this, if the missile was specially directed into polish space.

are gathering additional forces, but they have money, er, somewhere in the fall, i think it will be difficult for them to do two goals at the same time: to reassure the russian people there, i won’t call it, because these are already, i would say, people who simply fulfill not definitely not a civil society, and they think that this social contract will have enough money for them, i think so... they understand somewhere until the fall before the elections in the usa. i think if, and i very much i hope that their hopes will fail in various directions, after the summer, well, in the fall, let's say , yes, let's be more realistic, in the fall, these purely financial resources will come to an end, they will no longer support inflationary processes, well, or on the contrary, there will be fluctuations are very strict in the conditions of isolation, and if they cannot now... when they

want to bring the pressure of a total war to its peak, if they do not push against not only the ukrainians, but all our partners, then we will get another one in the autumn of next year the situation i didn't say about this year actually, because honestly, and you know it, when they talked about the huge opportunities, we will be in the crimea, i was quite silent, i didn't evaluate these facts, now i can say that here... here next fall, as if on condition, if the us and its partners change their approach in strategy, well, in strategy, or can you call it, well, in strategy too, that is , but in tactical actions and in the dynamics of arms supply, quantity, even in some additional actions , well they are, and you can talk about them, i partially touched on this, well, for example, i'll say yes, i don't see any problems.

let's say, i see the problem is that for some reason we are treated differently, if destroyers in the red sea, the usa shoot down yemeni missiles flying to israel, why can't the same be the case, well, i said on the border with poland, yes, air defense systems, well, you can ask a broader question, this is a threat to nato, that is , you can have training centers there without entering the territory of ukraine, without doing any, without involving your army, but much more... more deeply involved in countering that , that joseph biden, i will remind you, also said , must be categorically stopped, therefore , under all such conditions, i think that in the fall we will end up in a completely new situation, and there we will already dictate the conditions, and not lavrov, who has not been there for a long time is a minister, but he is a propagandist, and he needs to promote this topic now, that russia is strong like never before, and we will win over everyone there... well, there medvedev

was higher for that, i don't like medvedev , he has taken something out of the loop, but where same his statements about, as he said in ashes washington and in ashes london, something so petty, but now kyiv, a russian city, has turned into ash washington , yes, it is a city of kyiv russia, but you , medvedev, are nowhere near that, because there , if you pore over it, i will tell you, i will tell you one thing, i was a long time ago, but in my time, when we communicated with the russians. very often they have all the leaders, yes, they have russians , there is nothing russian in them, they have everything mixed in there , but not russian, they are like that, they are actually, in fact, the biggest russian chauvinists, there are national minorities who the stuvs got to the army of the leadership, these are the biggest chauvinists, that's why, well, there are also ukrainians, by the way, to be honest, there are ukrainians by origin, here he is a ukrainian, a russian chauvinist, and why, you have to prove. i

'm mine, i'm mine, i'm more of a chauvinist, and where will they run immediately, as soon as putin weakens, you'll see, everything can develop very, very quickly, so... we have to hold on, unfortunately, this is our fate, i.e. endure all this, and it is necessary, well, it is possible not publicly, but to conduct such a conversation with partners now conversation, we cannot say, if not us, then you are next, yes, because it is clear, we will stand in defense of the country, once upon a time there were such ideas to frighten other countries, that migrants would pass through us and be with you , we will not do this, we know our responsibility, but you must also take... your responsibility, according to the type of this war, it is a european war, and until it became regional in the broad sense of the word, where poland is involved, germany, france, britain, that is, until it did not become like that, you have the opportunity to use the motivation, the motivation

of people in ukraine in order to jointly achieve success and achieve results, and yes, lavrov, it will be the de-occupation of ukrainian territories, which... whatever you say there, well and it must be said simply, why do they always refer to a common heritage there, because they have nothing else, if you take away from them this rhetoric that kyiv is the mother of russian cities, then they will have nothing at all, they will not have history, no religion, there is nothing, that is, what could they be proud of, well, such a historical thing, you know, you know, it is better than... for me, they carried the tatars, unlike kyiv, where there was resistance and yes they passed in well in the 13th century they conquered, yes they passed through kyiv , but no one obeyed, and they burned it, and what did they do, and they were supposed to serve the tatars there to these

orcs, nomads, whatever they are called, because they were carried there, well, they say the mongol-tatars are not so bad. as we paint them today, well, in our imagination, these are the conquerors who passed through this territory, so here are all the princes of moscow, they rushed under them, so what’s more , it turned out that they have mongol-tatar blood there, they all have their own history, they have the history of muscovy, they don’t want it, they shun it, they don’t even want to mention it to peter i, yes, who is there, as if they are all there, but wait, who is peter i in his genealogical tree, and you will understand where you started from? primordial moscow, and they are closer to the tribes of the nomads of the steppe and to the north, yes, to these tribes, than to the kyiv movement, they know it, they they know all this very well, they want to steal the history, the identity of another people, because their

history was, unfortunately, the one they are forming now, invasive, misanthropic and slavish, but they want to steal that history, which... we have a completely different one , european with dignity, but in a difficult situation, because among us there are such people, unfortunately, we are on such a geographical policy, but we have to fight for identity, we have to fight for history, and here, by the way, there is also no reason for them to steal here do not give because it now it will also be a part of the 24th year of the war against ukraine, because it is a total war, it is not a front, it is the whole country and already against the whole of russia. thank you sir. valery, thank you for the conversation, it was politician-diplomat valery chaly, with the coming new year we will already meet in the 24th year on our tv broadcast. friends, we work live on the tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those watching us on youtube right now, you

still have time to vote in our poll on whether putin will go to war in europe. here we see the results of the tv poll, 57% yes, 40. 3% no on youtube, so far we see the results, 50% yes, 50% no. on this , friends, i will put an end to our conversation today, in our program, and remind you that on sunday at 8:00 p.m. i and my colleagues will summarize the year that is passing, olga len, roman chaika and antin borkovskyi will be on the air , let's talk about 2023, what was it like, what can it be like? 2024, don't miss it on sunday , december 31 at 8:00 p.m.,

goodbye, greetings, dear tv viewers, on the air of the tv channel, studio zahid program, we will analyze the most important events of this week and, of course, we will try to make predictions. what will january 24th be. our guests today are the state secretary of the polish ministry of defense, pawel zalewski , and andriy pionkowski, a prominent political scientist based in washington. and now pawel zalewski, state secretary of the polish ministry of defense, will work in... i congratulate you, dear mr. zelevskyi. well, first of all, i would like to congratulate you on the new system of polish government. we in ukraine rely extremely on the new constellation government, right? well, we are waiting for extremely powerful signals, because russian aggression against ukraine does not stop. if we talk about polish-ukrainian cooperation in... the field of national security, what challenges do you see now and what are the ways to overcome it, because

at one time it was the republic of poland that provided us with timely, key history, timely military assistance. good afternoon, nice to see you, i'm very glad we can talk and that this is one of my first interviews right after i took up my post. there are two the most important challenges: first - the minister of foreign affairs, during his last visit, his first visit, it is very important and symbolic, mr. radoslav sikorsky made his first visit to kyiv. so during that visit, he said that it is very important that russia does not win this war, and this is the position of the polish state. the position, which has been unchanged since the time of russian aggression, which does not depend on... which government we have in poland, this is the position of poland and all poles, and nothing changes here. we will

act successfully to support ukraine in struggle, both diplomatically and in other ways. so that russia not only does not win, but also so that ukraine can realize its very ambitious plans. if we talk about membership in the eu and membership in the western security system. these questions are absolutely. key and second, we will work to strengthen polish alliances, to strengthen nato, to strengthen cooperation with allies, both with the united states and with european allies, this is very important, i think this is a subject that has not been used by poland so far properly and fully, namely, to and cooperation with european allies. effective, and these are my two most important tasks, which i received and

which i will implement, well, on the other hand, we also have reality, and this reality is sometimes sad, in particular, we saw the blocked polish-ukrainian border, we hope in ukraine that the new government can quickly solve this, but as far as i suspect, there may be some additional problems, which may arise in time. recently said that the polish government is close to resolving this conflict. i'm deep i am convinced that solving this problem, blocking the border, but also all other issues that led to that blocking, i am convinced that the cooperation of the polish and ukrainian governments is needed here, but also... the positive participation of the european commission is needed, and i am sure that this

issue will be resolved quickly, dear mr. zelewski, i would just like to remind our viewers that you are not only the state secretary of the polish ministry of national defense, but you have also been a member of the european parliament for years, european policy towards ukraine, so we received an extremely powerful diplomatic signal, in particular, it is about cooperation, about... the beginning of negotiations, or rather, negotiations, about ukraine's accession to the european community, but there is still the issue of money, it is a matter of tens of billions of euros, and we know the situation in which our ukrainian state budget is, that is, if the united states can freeze and the european union will not be in too much of a hurry to allocate funds, then we will have colossal social problems in ukraine. i convinced, after all. i talked with the american partners that this issue will be resolved in the american congress, that

those funds will be provided to ukraine, and in this case i am waiting for that to happen, i am convinced that it will happen, but of course, we are talking about cooperation for many years and about support for ukraine for many years, it is not only and exclusively a matter of one year, and support from the eu side, next to american support. we will talk about all this within our government, but also with our european partners, in which a way to increase... aid for ukraine, because ukraine needs money for the state apparatus to function normally, that is clear, in the conditions of war, ukraine simply needs financial support, but also support in weapons, ammunition, and this is one of our tasks, so that to create an even more successful assistance mechanism for ukraine in these

matters, arms and ammunition, we are working on this and in cooperation with... we will do it, so i assure you that for us the issue of preserving the ability of the ukrainian state to perform tasks and preserving capabilities of the ukrainian army to defend ukraine are absolutely key, a priority, and for our government these issues are not subject to discussion, and accordingly, when we talk in general about ukraine's progress towards the euro-atlantic community, not only towards the european... union, but the euro-atlantic community, yes on the one hand, we know that putin regularly sends certain signals through his closed channels with the demand to prevent such a possibility. on the other hand, we understand that when we talk about the security of ukraine, it is possible only within the limits the euro-atlantic community. yes, and the key

story, we understand that soon, literally in six months, the washington nato summit will be held there, and so do we. that ukraine will receive not just a signal, but very specific security guarantees, we are working on it, ukraine, we are working on it, ukraine should be included in the security mechanism of the event, and that war, and about that. also, because of this, that war broke out, when, on the one hand, putin and russia wanted to block ukraine's path to the western community, to where ukrainians want and feel themselves, exactly. members of that community. ukrainians did not give up and confirmed that they feel part of the event and want to be members of western institutions. and all western aid, including to poland, boils down to the fact that poland and the west, the united states, the eu, nato, did not agree to putin's demands. and they support

ukraine in this war. the whole logic of western policy is that... as a consequence and result of the great support that the west provides for ukraine, and that ukraine is part of the west's security system. if it is about the details, then they still need to be discussed, but the principle, and it is the most important. place, so it is already happening, on the other hand, there would not be the help that is available today , of course, if we talk about the future, we must make concrete decisions together with

the ukrainian government, in which way those guarantees will be implemented, but... i repeat once again, in view of that support, huge support for the ukrainian state, for the ukrainian army is already being implemented, and if we talk, for example, about hypothetical models of these security guarantees, whatever they might look like, this is not about specific security guarantees for ukraine, but in general what models could be used, i can say about the goal, because it is the most important, the model is only... i know that it is very important , but the technical realization of the goal, and the goal is for ukraine to be a sovereign state, independent of russia and sovereign in relation to russia, that there cannot even be a question of some kind of finlandization of ukraine, of a repetition

of the model that was used in relation to finland long years after the war. i do not i know whether... russia would like such a model, but ukraine definitely has the right to make sovereign decisions in this matter, and the entire western community supports ukraine, so the goal, the goal is that ukraine is truly sovereign, and that could choose allies, and this is our goal, to support ukraine in this, so that ukraine will be successful and sovereign for years, and this is the most important thing. it. an extremely important point, and if we talk, for example, about certain specific points, in particular we are talking about polish-ukrainian military cooperation. i will not speak now specifically, because also not very. i have this opportunity, but i want to say that sending ammunition for the ukrainian army is not only our polish, but also our european priority. we will act in this area,

which also applies to polish-ukrainian cooperation, in order for this to happen, we are well aware and understand ukrainian needs. we know how difficult the situation is and will do everything we can to help. and what goals do you think putin has set for himself ? that the russian economy managed to withstand, despite the strength of the sanction, we understand that cooperation continues, i don't know, it is safe and not only with the countries of the middle east, that is, with iran itself, we understand that cooperation between the russian federation continues. and china , that is, there is a feeling that russia is preparing for greater provocations, in any case , we understand that the baltic countries very clearly feel a possible danger, despite the fact that

estonia, lithuania, and latvia are nato members. i can tell how we read them in poland, and it will be very detailed. we read them and interpret them in the context of the statements of the russian federation. wants to control ukraine, wants to control belarus, but also to bring to a situation in which the countries of central and eastern europe, we are talking here about the baltic countries, but also about poland and other countries, will be removed from such an effective mechanism of nato functioning, that is, they will be of this type . security zones, of course, we do not agree to this, because as a democratic country, as a country in which there is the rule of law, we

want it to be governed also in international relations, and we want every state to have the right to speak sovereignly about its needs, so i believe that the goal of russia is, firstly, control over ukraine, and secondly, it is in... we are not for that we agree, there is no reason for this to happen, neither the poles nor the other peoples of central-eastern europe want it, and no one in the west takes it seriously or considers it. nato membership is a membership that provides security guarantees, real security guarantees. i do not believe in this, there is no such possibility. for putin risked provocation towards nato countries. the consequences for russia would be catastrophic. i am not talking about the economic consequences, but about the military

consequences. it is simply impossible. nato is a security space. membership in nato provides internal security. today, nato is the largest alliance in the world that guarantees security. it comes out of mutual. with the help of democratic institutions of nato countries. we are also connected by a large number of codependencies, economic and social, and putin knows this. putin is a rational politician in his own way. it is allowed mistakes, well, such a mistake was the attack on ukraine. made possible by the false data he received. unfortunately, it happens that dictators, and putin is one of them, receive false

data from their people and do not have the opportunity to verify this data, because they created such a system themselves. but he is not crazy and will not risk attacking the territory of nato, the territory of the baltic countries, especially, taking into account the military presence of nato on the eastern flank. it is growing and will intensify, it is not intensifying in such a provocative way, it is not about putin having arguments and theses, or one of his courtiers had arguments and theses that nato wants to attack, no, but it is strengthening and showing, and this is very important. nato shows that it will defend every piece of land of the country that belongs to nato, and there is nothing here. doubts, no one can have doubts, this is the whole logic of this union and those obligations, so that

a russian attack on nato countries is impossible. instead, we must do everything so that russia does not win the war against ukraine and that ukraine defends itself and can be part of the event, because this is what the ukrainians want, and this is part of ukrainian identity, and it cannot be defeated, no one will defeat it, and putin will not defeat it. dear mr. zalevsky, but there is the problem of the american elections and there is the problem of the don. trump, and accordingly , the key story is that the european union should now start preparing the so-called plan b. we are very seriously following the elections and those processes and those discussions on the topic of security. we hear different opinions, we hear different statements of candidates who declare their participation in those elections. we also listen very carefully to what

mr. president trump says. we realize the importance of the united states for the entire international security system and we know that the united states is an integral factor, an integral part of the world security system, and no one can replace the united states. but we also know, and mr. president trump knows it, that there are certain logical limits, certain possibilities, beyond which the united states cannot go. therefore , the refusal of aid to ukraine, the withdrawal from europe, this meant the adoption of a decision according to which the united states ceases to be a world hegemon, ceases to be a great state, because it would be a signal not only for us in poland, ukraine or europe, it would be a signal for the whole world, it would be a signal for australia, for new zealand, for mr.

trump or someone in his circle, or someone who is a candidate in the election does not want to lose this function, does not want to give up this role, because it is very important for the united states, so we must seriously analyze the discussions that are taking place in the united states, we must draw conclusions and we must know the reality that what is possible and what is not. if to talk about the cooperation of european countries within the framework of nato, within the framework of the european union, and these are the institutions that complement each other, without a doubt, the role and cooperation of the european community must be strengthened. undoubtedly, despite the situation in the united states and from the signals that

come from there, that europe should take. most of the responsibility for security on its territory, we believe that this is a very valid idea, and we will work on this vector of strengthening european cooperation when it comes to security. for us, it is understandable. poland fulfills this role, and the results of the recent elections, i hope, will only increase the effectiveness of our actions. and this position is the position of the previous government, the current government, as a whole, we want to increase european security guarantees and we want our european partners to do the same. so, in conclusion, i consider it necessary to increase the european responsibility for security in europe. it is necessary to work in this direction. we also understand and hear what is happening in the united states, but

we believe that despite the... declarations, that are announced, the united states will not retreat and will not reduce its interest in the situation that is happening in europe, because this would mean that it becomes a country that closes itself in its borders and loses its influence in world politics, and trump certainly does not have such a desire , so we do our part, keep working, keep calm and support. those americans who understand the responsibility of a great power in the whole world and what the united states is, but do not panic, because there is no reason for this at the moment. thank you very much, dear mr. zalewski, for this extremely interesting and frank conversation on the air of the espresso tv channel, i want to remind our viewers that the state secretary of the polish ministry of defense was currently working for them on the espresso air.