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to love, with modern medicines you can, if you have vil, with modern medicines you can love, love, live and give life. get checked, protect yourself, get treated. knowing about complex things is important. knowledge about the ox saves lives. the guest of our broadcast today is yair lapit, the leader of the opposition in the israeli knesset, the head of the party is shatit, the former prime minister and minister of foreign affairs of the state of israel. erif top. mr. lapit, good evening, thank you for the invitation. today is the 725th day of russia's war against ukraine and the 135th day of the war in the middle east east. when. 725 days ago, the war began in

our country, you were one of the heads of the israeli government, you made principled decisions in the situation that developed in the world at that time. you imagined the globalization of this conflict and the fact that the events could spread to the middle east. actually. everyone understood that it was, it was the beginning of such a new era, for a long time people thought that when , after all, states would again use weapons to change the world order, and thought that it would only be terrorists and criminals do this, and when the war happened.

when russia attacked ukraine, we understood that it would lead to changes in the world, and we experienced a shock after that, and if you look today at geopolitically, at this issue, it is such a struggle between authoritarian countries and democracies, and the history of ukraine, it it was only the beginning, i hope that we will not enter dark times, but there is... the possibility that the tragedy of the ukrainian people is only the beginning of something bigger. that's exactly what i wanted to talk to you about. you and i are almost the same age. one of your grandfathers died in the budapest ghetto during world war ii. one of my grandfathers died on the fronts of world war ii somewhere in russia. and now we see how people who are 30-40 years younger than us are dying. what is possible

do to avert such a global danger? well, of course you may have some not so good thoughts about human nature because of it, indeed my relatives, some of them died defending freedom in the world, and uh really... it's part of history, and it's been that way since the beginning russia's invasion of ukraine, always there will be people, there will always be countries who believe that they have the right to change the world order by force, and what we have learned is why, what we saw in february of '22, we saw that sometimes freedom really has to be protected by force, and ... on october 7, just

a few months ago, we saw that actually confirming this when hamas invaded is sometimes simply not enough. just to say, sometimes you have to use weapons and defend yourself with force, with weapons, and that's exactly why ukraine and israel are also doing this. we talk a lot about the parallels between the two conflicts, and one of these parallels is our search for what real victory means. in ukraine, they hope that our state will return to its internationally recognized borders. however, this is not easy to do. in... israel is talking about the final victory over hamas in the gaza sector, but this too looks more like a wish today than a real possibility. where are the boundaries of our real possibilities in these conflicts, how much can we hope for the final result.

i think that in today's world one must partly be... one must have patience, that's part of it stability, if you look at the situation in ukraine, you can say that if you don't have an understanding of your future, you just don't have patience, and if you don't understand that you really have to fight in time, you have to make a lot of effort in time, then you will lose, just like us. it is a terrible organization and we have to win and we have to put in a certain amount of time to win, the same is true in all wars, and indeed, in

all wars there are always casualties for which we suffer, but we must always understand that this is a long-term situation, and who understands it, he wins, we have. in history there has already been a six-day war, it was an extraordinary victory that was very quick, but today these wars that we are experiencing are a combination of war and insurgency, and it will take time, both for ukraine and for israel, and our resilience should also be long-term. when we talk about the beginning of this war, the war. with ukraine, we often talk about the underestimation of the danger both on the part of the ukrainian leadership and on the part of ukrainian society, but this underestimation can be explained by the fact that we have never faced a challenge of this magnitude, and israel has faced , we know more than once, and how it happened that

the underestimation of the danger on the part of hamas also turned out to be quite serious, as you look at it in retrospect. you are right. unfortunately, you are right, indeed, i remember a meeting, a meeting of the cabinet of ministers a few days before the russian invasion of ukraine, when all the experts came into the room and said, they said that russia will not start a war, that is exactly what surprised us hamas, we underestimated this threat and we thought we were sufficiently protected and... and our system, it also protected, and we did not take into account deeply enough the security that we have to provide

to the people, so how did it happen that the israeli army, the israeli people and the government were so surprised. with such a course of events, this is already a question that needs to be resolved further. today we need to win this war and replace the people who were in charge when hamas launched its attack on october 7. so, when we talk, we talk about winning the war and the need for national unity, there is always a question that is addressed to you as an experienced politician, when was it created the military cabinet, one of... your colleagues , benny gantz, decided to cooperate with prime minister benjamin netanyahu, and you decided to refrain from this participation and remain in the opposition, what guided you? well

, in fact, in a real democracy, there is always an opposition, even in wartime, and only one. one thing is national unity on the battlefield, and another thing is national unity in the political, in the political sphere, we know that there was a lot of talk. that russia is united, afghanistan is united, etc. source, source strength of any democracy is precisely the opportunity to talk openly about things. i remember the experience from when there was the second world war, and also when democracy was a trival in britain, when the government replaced church by chamberlain and vice versa. that is... we need to discuss and we need to be able to disagree and that's not a weakness, that's a strength, that

's an advantage of democracy, that's what makes us powerful and that's what differentiates us from our enemies, that is, i wouldn't, i would wouldn't be afraid of things like disagreeing with someone else's position, and i think that people believe that it is necessary to think alike. but democracy is not about that, and precisely if we become like our enemies, then they win, ukraine and israel are democracies and they should remain democracies despite everything, and this gives us the opportunity to have frank discussions, open conversations, even during the war. i wanted to ask you whether the attitude of israeli society towards ukraine is changing at all, not even the attitude of the israeli society towards ukraine, in general, to what extent... ukraine as a separate figure in the consciousness of the israeli society during this time. well, you know, it's been

a long time since, unfortunately, in the last few months, we've been drowning in our own pain and fear and need to win. of course, we sympathize with ukraine very much, and we understand that our situations, our wars, they are similar, but in fact, in our thoughts, in our heads, we think about you, we pray for you, just like you us, i'm sure, but tell me, please, if we talk about russia and the current attitude towards it. for many years it was believed that russia is israel's neighbor, and good relations with russia, even

with president putin, a guarantee of some security for the jewish state after the well-known events in syria began, has this attitude changed against the background of what we see today, and against the background of the constant visits of representatives of the khomas organization to moscow, even after october 7? yes, of course it has changed. today there is a lot of indignation in israel about this, the fact that these are criminals and terrorists, they are received in moscow as honored guests, of course, this cannot be tolerated. hamas is a terrorist organization and that recognized, it was recognized by the european union, and the usa, and any country that understands its dignity, recognized it. hamas is a terrorist organization, a lot of young people

who came just for a concert were killed by hamas, a lot of women were raped, children were killed, and those people who did it are received in moscow as diplomats or as full-fledged participants discussions, i think that everyone does not accept it in israel, that is, it causes. outrage at how russia behaves in the context of this crisis, this crisis. in the first days after the attack on israel, israeli flags could be seen in many countries around the world, and there was such unanimous support for israel in many societies, and not just in the west. after that, we saw a change in the information , information agenda, and now we see how many, not even pro-palestinian, but pro-khamas, anti-sem... demonstrations, i think we are talking to you with the only country where such obvious demonstrations even there were not, but

there are few such countries in the world. to what extent can you consider information efficiency israel here conceded to his opponent? well, it's interesting that it really happened in many countries, and a lot of... countries initially supported israel, but there is such a thing as propaganda, a propaganda machine that works against israel, a lot. i think people think that it only comes from the gaza sector, and today, actually in this equation, you can say that israel, it is stronger, but we have to prove that we have the right to defend ourselves, and the people in hamas is

weaker, but it is still a terrorist organization. and you know, kill children, women, it's extremism, it's nationalism , it has to be stopped, so i recommend everybody to study the facts because there's a lot of automatic... thinking when people hear about these rallies, i just want to actually ask you, not even as a politician, as a journalist , which we cannot explain now in western societies, about the nature of authoritarian regimes, why many people in democracies are not aware of the dangers, i'm not

sure that... we can't do that, i think the problem with the world today is not because there is truth and untruth, but lies in the ability to listen. we live in a tiktok world where everything has to be summed up in 15 seconds, today it's only 15 seconds, not 15 minutes, or. another time, and if we talk about war, you can't explain everything in 15 seconds, but i would say that it is both the right of israel and the right of ukraine to defend themselves, to raise our heads against authoritarian regimes or other

organizations, against invasions, against murders of our people, i think that is recognized by all. world, the nature of mankind is that they, people just hear people who just they speak very loudly better, but i think that, in particular, in western countries, a lot of people continue to support us, and i think that this support continues to be heard both for ukraine and for israel, you are not afraid of a certain imperfection. from the world order that we are currently observing, closing international organizations, voting in the united nations organization, what we have learned now about the situation with the un agency for palestinian refugees, how we should act so that international institutions fulfill their functions, instead of becoming another tool for propaganda or even for terrorist activity?

well, first of all, i am really scared, i am scared by this, and this is really a problem that exists in social networks and in other sources, it is prejudice in such discussions, and of course that sometimes people forget that the un is not the most democratic institution, many countries in the un are not democrats. and therefore there is an automatic majority, which consists of non-democratic countries. in addition, there is the security council, and countries such as china or russia have the right of veto, which do not necessarily support democratic values. so we really have to accept

this, and we have to work together so that with... you hope for the restoration of israel's cooperation with the arab countries after this conflict, as far as it is generally assumed that israel will occupy a peaceful and secure place in the middle east. i really am. rejoice in the fact that such, not the agreement we had with egypt or the emirates or bahrain, but that they have already disappeared. yes, sometimes they talk about doubts, indignation, but we don't have such misunderstandings anymore, and it's very good, we already have

the opportunity to directly discuss some things with them, to explain to them what is really happening. many countries clearly understand the threats that come from... therefore, we already have a foundation on which we can build our negotiations with them, cooperation with them, cooperation for the sake of the future, so i believe that we will really be able to after this conflict. restore our influence in the middle east and preserve our agreements with the countries of the world. how much do you hope that this war

will still be localized and not spread to the conflict with hezbollah, on war in lebanon, to other such challenges? i hope that this will not happen, of course we do not want... to be sitting on our borders, today we evacuated many israelis from these regions, and if there is no diplomatic solution to the conflict, then we will take into account, in particular the recent un resolution that requires us to withdraw our troops from the borders and... we will be forced to respond, militarily, nobody wants this, but if we have no choice, it

will happen. in the gas sector, we are at war with hamas, but otherwise it will be a war precisely with lebanon, and i do not want to think what will happen to eberut or lebanon, if the war starts like this, that is, it will happen to everyone. it is better if we can find a diplomatic solution with hezbollah instead of bringing everything to war. tell me, if we talk about how cooperation between israel, ukraine, on the one hand, and the united states, on the other, should look in principle. in ukraine, they are now watching the election campaign, in the united states, they are looking at how the november elections in israel can end, and so are yours.

i think that support for israel does not depend on it from parties, we work with republicans and democrats, of course president biden. the friendliest president we've ever had in terms of cooperation between israel and the white house, and president trump has been friendly to us as well, he moved the us embassy to jerusalem, you know we 've wanted that for years, and he actually made those arrangements with bahrain and... the emirates and even morocco to a certain extent, that is, we believe that we can cooperate with both a republican

president and a democratic president, the usa has always been a country that has always been the best partner for us, and i hope that it will remain so in the future. i want to return to europe and to the relations of ukraine, israel, maybe israel with another. countries of central and eastern europe. your father, when he headed the yadvash institute, entered into a controversy with the president of ukraine, viktor yushchenko, on issues of historical memory. and i have always been interested in how important it is for the further development of relations between our peoples and between our states, the discussion about national memory, which took place both with ukraine and with poland, and was not always conducive to understanding. how important is it to us to continue?

i think that... if we say fundamentally, if we need relations, they must be built on trust and truth, any country has had such chapters in history that we would like to forget, but some of them we cannot forget, we will not to ignore the fact that ukraine also had a history of anti-semitism, but... no, i mean that you shouldn't think that the whole history was painted in rosy tones. ukraine too had other experience in protecting jews and hiding them from nazism. and we need to be able to discuss all these points, not because we are not friends, on the contrary, because we are friends, we are really not, proud of

such pages, stories, but we are ready to discuss them, in order to they did not repeat themselves, so of course i remember that controversy with my father, and i think that a generation later, i would say that we do not need to try to restore the history as it was, but to discuss what it should be. thank you, i... wish that maybe at the end of our conversation, did you say a few words to our viewers, who are now watching this program and perhaps shared the experience of this kind of psychological survival in conditions of permanent war? well, you mentioned my father, i will say the following: my father was a child during the holocaust and

was taken from him. his father, and my grandfather , as we have already said, he was killed in a concentration camp, and my father lost his childhood because of this, but nevertheless he was always a happy person, he liked to laugh, eat, he loved his wife, he was very happy human, and we can always decide for ourselves how we will overcome a bitter experience, whether we will be more intelligent or depressed, whether we will be more happy because we survived, whether we will be filled with grief because of what we, what we went through, or will we understand the beauty of life, or will we still

immerse ourselves in it? that we went through, and i think what he taught me is that we always have a choice, ukraine has been fighting this unjust war for several years, and let's remember what we we are fighting, we are fighting for the fact that we will have freedom, to dance, to smile, to have free families, and we are fighting for... victories and a peaceful end to all the anxieties in which we are. thank you very much for this interview and good bye.

we're going to start this conversation with heavy topics. on february 20 , as part of a strike, polish farmers will once again block all checkpoints on the border with ukraine. i will ask you directly why the polish authorities allow this, despite the fact that the situation threatens the security of both our countries, primarily poland. in my opinion, we are entering an interesting one a new period when ukraine will negotiate on...