if you watch us on tv, please call if you believe that the fsb is involved in the terrorist attack in moscow (0800-211-381, no), 0800 211382, all calls to these numbers are free, at the end of the program we will here are the results of this vote. next, we have oleksandr khara, diplomat, expert on foreign and security policy, center for defense strategies. mr. oleksandr, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening, mr. sergey. congratulations. let's start our conversation with the terrorist attack in russia, which took place on march 22, and we can already see how, in the current situation, putin is trying to use this tragedy in order to change from the role of aggressor to the role of victim, and at the world level, to create the image of russia as a victim country. terrorism and a country that

defends itself from terrorists, from terrorists and things and from those who, as putin said, cut a window for them on the russian-ukrainian border, which absolutely looks like a delusion. how do you assess this situation, how much does this story help putin to start active contacts with the world again, and in particular with the special services different countries, restore with... with special services of civilized countries? well, you know, now there are different versions of what happened, i think that it is definitely necessary to reject and not even consider the ukrainian trail or the cia, what russian propaganda is doing, trying to bind us and the americans, well, in fact , certain circles , who are supporters of conspiracy theories in the united states, trumpists, they also... they hint or just directly

link, although of course, there is no fact of this, and by and large, it is possible, i think, there are three such versions that this in fact, there is also an islamic state, well, with an afghan subjugation, because there are a large number of them, to be honest, it is difficult for me to say, i am not a specialist in the middle east, but eh, if it was an attack in fact. islamists, and the fsb, the all-powerful fsb, in a totalitarian state, the state missed it, it is clear that this, at least for the thinking part of russians, is an indicator that there is a powerful facade, a lack of rights, freedoms, in the name of security, but there is no such security , and of course that this is a factor that may play in the future, not in favor of this regime, the second point is if they knew. but

allowed in order to use for their own purposes what happened, this tragedy, and of course, to try to connect it with ukraine, to show that in order to fight terrorism, additional powers are needed, fewer freedoms, which means the death penalty , which , i think after these unfortunates, who got caught, and i have no sympathy for terrorists, i have, shall we say, doubts that these people... were actually involved, at least they were at the core of this terrorist attack. well, the third option is, of course, that the fsb itself could have planned this so-called false flag operation, i.e. impersonating someone else or for another purpose. all three versions seem to me to be quite weighty. as for, well, we know very well that the americans and other western countries warned the russians.

primarily from their own citizens, but also through closed channels, they warned the russians that a large-scale terrorist attack was being prepared, and it is difficult to imagine that the special services did not listen, did not check through their channels that this was being planned, you are absolutely right that this is in addition to the fact that attempts to connect this terrorist attack with ukraine, there will be other things, one of the options, it is true not from this administration, but from the future administration. in washington , most likely trump, they can say: look, we are fighting a greater evil that is a direct threat to you, so let's cooperate, as we did with previous administrations, i want to remind you that on september 11, 2001, putin called to president bush, supported him, and then there was very close cooperation of the special services, the military, there was even a nato base on the territory of the russian federation.

an american base that provided logistics, that is, military operations in afghanistan, i am not talking about providing air space for american transporters, that is, all this was, and of course that... putin will try to use this card so that ukraine is not like that is important to you, we're not a threat , we're working out our security issues, but the needle is definitely something that you, that you have to deal with, even though trump has solemnly declared that the needle is over, and there is no longer this threat, but it seems to me that there is still a very important, important point, this barbarism, the kotsap barbarism, well, we all know it. and in ukraine, and in fact we have already seen during this war since the 14th year, these cut off ears, and squeezed out eyes, which means genital torture, that is, all these are a complete set of the russian world, which is traditional, and we are

still witnesses since the time of the soviet union and the gulag, that all these tortures, let's say, were used, so this could be an important moment in order for... let's say, those who are supporters of islam in a more radical form, even more were radicalized, and of course we will now see a witch hunt, everyone who is, well, i will not name the representatives of the north caucasus, central asia, you know how wonderful, as the katsaps call them, of course, that there will now be efforts to squeeze them out, maybe to authorize some. pogroms to push you out of the country, and of course that this can then be reflected in radicalization and continued terrorist acts, and it is clear that this will throw the russian federation into chaos, because it is clear that we are the biggest enemy, all forces are drawn against us, and

of course, that russia does not have enough forces to react to such things, therefore, in the long-term perspective, it will definitely be ... that the russians themselves will have to pay for this barbarism, and finally, i was honestly surprised that gil took on, let's say, the responsibility , because yes, russia said that in the 15th year it was going to go to syria to fight the zhigil, but in fact they were fighting to defend the assad regime with the forces that were against that regime, and i'm not sure, that they destroyed a large number of igilians there, and precisely because of that... directly the clash of the igil, well, i just didn't see it, at least in the information space, so this is , let's say, a new line of tension with this organization, and it is clear that there will be content, especially for such barbaric things,

especially during holidays, holy times for muslims, especially this hatred, which is now being generated and will be directed against the icelandic... minority in the russian federation. mr. oleksandr, well , it is not completely clear whether it was a department or not, this is also another question, because in the country of the russian federation anything can happen, that is, i i will not be surprised that they can say one thing, show another, refer to some sources, departments, something else, and disperse this topic, although the president of france, emmanuel macron, said that france is also above france. there was a threat from idols, and he convened the council of defense and national security yesterday because of the attack in moscow, but what surprised me the most in this situation was that the whole world started talking about this incident in

crocus city hall and that there is no place for terror on planet earth, but there is a country that is... a terrorist in this situation, that is, it commits this terror on a larger scale every day on the territory of ukraine, that is, they kill hundreds, thousands of people, they kill on the territory of the ukrainian state, they simply destroy cities to the ground, in terms of the level of terror, they have long surpassed hamas, in general, this is a state that put it on such, how to say correctly, on the production flow, that is, when they use hypersonic cruise missiles, aircraft, er, various types of weapons against ukraine and engage in this terror, such international terrorism, why,

when they express sympathy to the russians , why these we don't hear sympathy for ukrainians every day when these russian terrorists are destroying and ... trying to kill us, well you know, i would add, apart from ukraine, this is something that is not in the columns of newspapers, well, katsaps kill in the same way every day the syrians, that is, there it... has not ended, and they are like in a shooting range, dropping bombs, killing peaceful syrians, and therefore they have forgotten about syria in general, it seems to me that this is typical of, you know, our 20th, late 20th , the disease of the beginning of the 21st century, which is the so-called spin, when there is news, they spin for 24-48 hours, everyone is terrified, and then they forget and switch to something else , secondly, the violence that takes place in... ukraine has already become normalized, because every day children and women are killed, destruction is taking place, that is, this is already such a background, well

, what is new, it is just a continuation , two whole years, the war is said, although in fact it is 10 years, and only our best friends and correct journalists, they constantly emphasize that it is 2 years of a ten-year war, that is why it seems to me that there is a problem with this, and of course, that there is also a problem of the liberal world, that they cannot help it to sympathize with grief... when innocent people are killed , i understood that russia is outraged, that ukrainians, if not, let’s say, are happy about what happened, because there were certain moments in social networks, then at least they are indifferent, and our western partners, i also saw such criticism on twitter that this is not normal, you cannot dehumanize these people, they are not guilty of anything, by the way, there is an interesting moment, well, it is of course ... a conspiracy theory, but it has the right to exist, that the terrorist attack should have happened a little

earlier, and when the shaman was supposed to give a concert there, and then, of course, if there were more racists there, such detached nazis would have been gathered, perhaps the reaction of ukrainian society would have been even more unpleasant for the russians, but it is clear that this is our normal reaction as ukrainians, not to sympathize with the country. .. supports, i mean the population, and they cannot be called citizens, which council supports this war, which is actually ready to destroy every ukrainian, and it does not matter whether they are children or soldiers, in fact, unfortunately, our western partners have not yet done so understood, and that this cannot be done like this, that is, it is not a sign of civilization when they sympathize with a murderer, when they sympathize in a country that , as you say, commits terrorism every day, that sponsors... different terrorist groups , the same as hamas , the taliban, they

are always moscow, that is, these people who did similar things in their own territories, and precisely because, well, it seems to me that there is a problem with the political culture of our western partners, that they still succumb to and by two own values, not realizing that they are thus playing that game which the kremlin offered them. macron, already mentioned by me, mr. alexander, said that france will cooperate with russian special services in the anti-terrorist field. let's hear what he said. we have offered to expand cooperation with russian intelligence services and our partners in the region so that the perpetrators are found as soon as possible and that we ... continue to effectively fight against these groups that target several countries. now we see it in russia,

a couple of months ago we saw it in turkey, and they recently made an attempt in france. here we see how macron, who just a few weeks ago said that he would send troops to ukraine, hinted at french troops going to ukraine, if russia goes any further, is already ready... to work with russian special services and talk about what we are ready to expand cooperation there, this is how the soft rehabilitation of the russians is going through this and in the sahel region, they are doing the same things, we remember these terrible maps and pictures, when they tortured and killed bukim and terrorists there, although there is no difference, even if it is a terrorist , if he does not surrender to kill, and if he surrenders, then he should be treated decently. and there should be a trial and an appropriate punishment, well, we do not see that with the russians, so it seems to me that this

is a continuation of such an approach, and it is quite logical, well, here you know, we can of course criticize, but still they are guided by their own national interests and if there is even a small opportunity to avoid victims on their own territory or their own citizens in other countries, then they will use it such cooperation. mr. oleksandr, pope francis, who... has been criticized quite a lot over the last month, stated that the destruction of infrastructure in ukraine threatens a humanitarian catastrophe, during the divine service. in st. peter's square in the vatican on sunday, pope francis called not to forget in his prayers about the suffering ukraine. let's listen to what the pontiff said. we pray for all our brothers and sisters who are suffering as a result of war. i am especially thinking about the suffering ukraine, where there are a lot of people

found themselves without electricity, due to intense attacks on infrastructure that, in addition to causing death and suffering, risk an even greater humanitarian disaster. but the pontiff did not name the culprit of this humanitarian disaster, that is, again pope francis is talking about the fact that there is such a situation, someone is firing there, people can be left without electricity, why the head. the vatican and the pope , why does he avoid naming and does not want to directly call putin to stop this war? well, you know, there are two points here, when we talk about him and the vatican , some people call him vatnikan, for obvious reasons , it is clear that he sincerely wants

ukrainians not to suffer, to stop this war, and as a christian... that, well, let's put it this way, i try to do both in sermons and prayers, but on the other hand, there is a political component to his statements, his views, starting with the fact that literally last year there was an interview where he said, i constantly communicate with the russian ambassador, and he one of the parents is from russia, the other is from ukraine, he is very knowledgeable with the situation, and that is exactly why i understand well what is happening there, that is, instead of turning to... the first source, to the ukrainian representative, to turn to the believers, his flock in ukraine, and they would of course tell him what is happening here without any political correctness, of course , it would be much better, but it seems to him that in the end he can become such a mediator between

zelensky and putin, he said about it many times, many times, he said that he would come to kyiv. if the next visit will be to moscow in order to prepare or launch this peace process. we understand that the pope, who does not have, let's say , tank regiments, paraphrasing stalin's phrase, and at least he is credited with such a phrase, then he does not have such power over putin, who, well, you can say in christian terminology, is the antichrist, because he professes and acts in absolute contradiction to the teachings of jesus christ. and actually he, i, the pope, tries to maintain this balance so that there is an opportunity to talk, to become mediators, not realizing that it is useless case, not understanding that in this way he equates both the aggressor and the victim of the aggressor, and not understanding in this way that he actually puts the ukrainian

congregation in a rather uncomfortable position, because if he came here, if even he came to poland and met with... lviv, it would be a very serious gesture of support for ukraine and the victims, the innocent victims of this war, but political calculations do not allow it, i think that not only the desire to become a mediator, but also the tradition of the catholic church since the second world war, they understand that there are flocks in russia as well, and if he can somehow call putin in more correct words, call him, if not... the antichrist, then a murderer, then the rights and interests of his flock may suffer the same oppression, as the same jehovah's witnesses actually destroyed this christian church in russia, took control, oppressed them in the same way as the ukrainian greek catholic church or the ukrainian orthodox church

in the occupied territories, so it seems to me that these political calculations prevail his christian love for... for the ukrainians, for the victim, and it is a pity that he behaves like this, it seems to me that it would be the most correct of his, let's say this, for him to pay a visit to ukraine, to take the side of those who, those who suffers, and the second point, it seems to me, it would be better for him to fix his concern and efforts not on peace, he is not able to do this for obvious reasons, on the return of ukrainian children, this is also a christian thing, of course, that... this is what that the catholics of the whole world would definitely support, and of course we do any result would be greatly appreciated. thank you, mr. oleksandr, for the conversation, this is oleksandr khara, a diplomat. an expert of the center for defense strategies, and let me remind you, friends, that we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, and today we

are conducting a poll, today we are asking you about the following: do you believe that a terrorist attack in moscow organized by the federal security service, yes, no, it's pretty simple on youtube, if you're watching us on tv, grab your smartphone or phone and vote, if you believe that the fsb is involved in this terrorist attack 08. 211 381 no 0800 211382 all calls to these numbers are free, call, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. next, we have ilya panamarov, a russian oppositionist, former deputy of the state duma of the russian federation. mr. ilya, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast today. good evening. well, since we ask our viewers both on tv and on our platforms in youtube and. facebook about what they think, whether they allow what the terrorist attack in moscow was organized by the federal security service of ukraine. i will also ask you, what do you think? the security service of ukraine or

the federal security service. federal service of the russian federation, fsb. so. well, i certainly believe that she could have had a hand in it. ah, and we already have a lot. examples in the past when this happened, and i remember very well how mr. putin's first term began, with explosions in houses, in moscow and in other cities of the country, and of course, his fifth term could 100% begin from the same, and here we, we, we see it, and in general, all this looks. this whole story with these tajiks heading towards ukraine is very suspicious, according to the kremlin

leadership, this is all very, very, very suspicious, and i think that, unfortunately, this is a probable story. and tell me, you mentioned all these stories, we remember in 1999, when houses exploded, in 2004, when... there were explosions in the subway in moscow, then there were many different stories, which were related to how putin arranged, or, let's say, how, as people who described it in various books say, in particular lytvynenko and felchinsky, who described how putin undermined the russian federation, and used it each time to ... consolidate his power, first to come to power, then was beslan to take control of the mass media information, then there were several more stories that

basically testified to what he did each time in order to take a bigger step towards totalitarianism and authoritarianism. at this stage, if we assume that the fsb had something to do with these terrorist attacks, what was its purpose ? well, look, now it's a coincidence, if less, all this with the events that are taking place in the kursk and belgorod regions, and if we remember, putin was warned that this would happen there by the western special services, and this was still on march 7, after which there was already a second warning , which was march, that is, we know for 100% that he was at least warned, but did not receive any measures there to prevent this

from happening, why? well, i think that he wants, well, if less blame, to blame our fighters for this and ukraine in general, and secondly, he can restore the death penalty there. and use it in relation to partisans and fighters in volunteer units, that is , he is constantly playing to increase, to increase the capabilities of his capabilities, and what he says is that this is the ukrainian track and this is all the delusion that they have been telling for the past three days, that these terrorists in quotes drove 450 or 500 km from moscow to... someone, to the bryansk region to the russian-ukrainian border, where everything is mined, and on that side, a lot of security forces pass through it window, well, i don't know how it was possible

to drive this renault there. this is this window that putin talked about, it was he who later twisted this whole story with the ukrainian trace to show the russians that look, there are fascists, here are terrorists and these terrorists together with the fascists, this is the biggest threat to russia, and therefore we we will intensify xenophobia in russia against tajiks and various people from central asia or the north caucasus. and we will fight with ukraine, that is, killing two birds with one stone in this way, that's what the russians are the most threatened, no, of course , that is, for him it is necessary to constantly create such an account of the enemy, and emphasize it, and of course he wants to tie everything into one pile, and here is terrorism, and here tajiks in russia

are very ... disliked there are guest workers from central asia and the north caucasus, all this xenophobia, well, of course it's a west, because they will definitely say on television later that this is kurason, it's the consequences of the american presence in afghanistan, and the americans are still behind ukraine , and that's why it's all the same gang, and... and here 's the evidence why, why it's all the same, but here he falls into a certain branch, because it's useful for him in the west to use the theme of idols, because he turns out to be such a victim, and this is how in the previous topic you discussed here with mr. khmara about what cannot be combined.

a victim, a real victim of aggression, which is ukraine with what is happening now in russia, but with the help of this terrorist attack, they can say that we are also victims, and in many western countries this will find its echo, and there are many different western politicians, they will claim exactly that, and it will help countermeasures in russia. financial aid to ukraine and to change the focus of attention from the russian-ukrainian war to such a global, well, really existing problem of international terrorism. well, literally in these minutes, as we were on the air, putin made several new statements, russian propaganda channels report, about what he said at the meeting with the security forces of the terrorist attack in

krokusima. to be a link in a series of attempts by those who has been at war with the russian federation since 2014 at the hands of the kyiv regime, it is already being hinted at in western countries, and also, it is just about us, i think, just volunteer units, and about volunteer units as well, and the question of why the terrorists tried after the crime should be answered to go to ukraine, who was waiting for them, says putin, it is clear that those... who support the kyiv regime do not want to be accomplices of terror and sponsors of terrorism, but there are really a lot of questions, well, that is, he takes and mixes it up and he does it with representatives of russian volunteer battalions, terrorist units, with ukrainian terrorists, with the department.