and of course, we'll talk about the war first, wait for us, we'll be back in 15 minutes. the parliament of georgia took another step. before the adoption of the scandalous draft law on the transparency of foreign influence, whether the protests will turn into a revolution, this is what we are talking about on bbc ukraine, i am olga polomaryuk. protests in georgia have been going on for the third week. people took to the streets after the parliament passed the first reading of the bill on the transparency of foreign influence in mid-april. when it began to be considered in the second reading, they went to the square thousands of people, and the situation... sharply

escalated when the demonstrators moved to the place where the deputies were supposed to leave, special forces broke through there, and the protesters began to be dispersed. the official explanation of the law enforcement officers is that the protest went beyond the legal limits of peacefulness and became violent. according to preliminary data, security forces have detained more than 60 people, there are victims on both sides. so, what are they protesting against in georgia? the opposition calls the bill on the transparency of foreign influence pro-russian. claims that he is a list. from the russian law on foreign agents, it obliges non-governmental organizations and media that receive more than 20% of funding from abroad to register as pursuing the interests of a foreign power. these organizations will have to fill out a financial declaration every year, and for refusing to do so, there will be a penalty of 25 thousand gel, which is more than $900. protesters have already reacted to the rampant beating at the event. the supreme

representative of the european union josep borel condemned the violence against demonstrators in georgia, the bill itself was criticized in the european parliament. there they approved a resolution according to which negotiations on joining the eu will not begin if the draft law is adopted. instead , prime minister of georgia iraklii kobakhidze said that such a law is needed to ensure financial transparency of grant recipients. so how did it go? bbc correspondent: after more than two weeks of peaceful protest, the georgian police used water cannons to disperse the demonstrators in the center of tbilisi, to clear the government quarter to the parliament and special forces were also withdrawn. loudspeaker police warned the protesters and ordered them to disperse. the special forces have already used water cannons and canisters. gas to push

the protesters away from the main avenue, but as you can see, people are shouting back in defiance and are not going anywhere. russians, russians, they chant at the government, the protesters oppose the draft law on the transparency of foreign influence, which was considered by the parliament in the second reading. the government says it will promote this law. yes, they say, but they don't know that... we georgians would rather die than be russian slaves. we will die for georgia and will never be slaves of the russians. as the actions of the police intensified, the mob became more and more unruly. georgians believe that their government acts in the interests of russia. this protest broke out in connection with a controversial draft law, which, according to the protesters, is directed against civil society and is a threat to democracy. on monday, the ruling party

of the country organized a mass rally in support of the draft law. politicians accused the event and public organizations of an attempt revolution and promised to adopt a bill to protect georgia's sovereignty. georgia is a candidate country for joining the european union. the country received this long-awaited status only a few months ago. but since the introduction of this draft law, both brussels and washington have warned that its adoption. may harm the process of georgia's accession to the eu, so the current crisis is not only a fight against an unwanted law, it is a fight for georgia's european future. well, after such protests, the parliament of georgia did pass the draft law in the second reading. well bbc correspondents follow the events in tbilisi, they say that the protests are not only about the new bill, they are against the change of the state's course in general. last night we were here near the parliament where there are protests. has been going

on for more than two weeks now, we've seen water cannons and tear gas fired at people, protesters being dispersed, but they 're coming back, even more determined, they're not going to back down, the majority of... protesters, students, schoolchildren, young people, they believe that this struggle is for the european future of georgia. a few days ago political leaders organized their rally here and their speeches in that rally shocked most of the population. there were many anti-western statements, they accused the west of destabilizing georgia through public organizations. and in the parliament, where this bill is being discussed, similar statements are heard. a pro-government rally, at which anti-western statements were made, took place at the beginning of the week. and here is an example of what is there. said the honorary chairman of georgian dream, bidzina ivanishvili. funding of non-profit public organizations that pretends to be help in fact, it affects the strengthening of the special services, bringing them to power. this money has nothing to do with aid. in fact,

their only goal is the loss of georgia's sovereignty. yes, and what is also important to take into account the elections planned for georgia in october, so what is the state of the georgian opposition now. its leaders, and that's what happened before, said bbc correspondent raigon dimitria. the opposition does not have a strong and charismatic leader who could unite it. the opposition is fragmented and they blame the ruling party for this. and this is one of the reasons why the party the georgian dream authorities want to push through this law, because they know that the opposition does not pose a serious threat to them in the upcoming elections in october. but it's not the government organizations that keep the government accountable, that will... repeat the elections, that will really challenge the georgian dream, which has been in power for 12 years. we are in touch with hanna sheles, director of security programs of the analytical center ukrainian prizma, mrs. hanna, i congratulate you, despite the protests, the parliament of georgia still voted, as we saw in the second reading, for this

bill, then the final third reading. do you think they will take this step? you know, there is such a difficult moment now, when it is very difficult to predict what will directly happen in tbilisi, because it is very reminiscent of the events of january 2014 in ukraine, on the one hand, we see a party in power that is completely under the actual control of one oligarch with close connections languages ​​from the russian federation, which have been undervalued for a long time, and we see significant influence and fear for their power and fear for the upcoming elections. on the other hand, we see everything civil society, which is now on the street, i do not know... one of my georgian colleagues, of any age, but from 60 to 18, who was not on the square these days, relatives, friends, well, that is, how can you not open facebook, it seems that just everyone is there, and this speaks of what, well, first of all, let's talk, an educated part of georgians thinks, because we

cannot compare the level of propaganda of the ruling party, which takes place at the level of villages, for example, and with those who understand what the european course is, georgia. but they are very they often really mention the events in ukraine, that now is their moment, it reminds them of the events of the 2014 euromaidan in ukraine, but on the other hand, and we understand that the principle has already gone here, plus ivanishvili and the russian federation have very clearly studied the lessons of 2014, that is why we see a sufficiently complicated situation that can really escalate. because before that there were no statements by ivanishvili himself at the level we heard yesterday, namely because of what will happen until this moment, whether some force will be able to break it, whether the same police will be able to for example, to come out and become more close to the people, realizing that yesterday's dispersal of demonstrations

was absolutely illegal, these are the issues that we cannot predict at the moment, ms. hanna, well, you spoke for the european course and we also saw the western reaction to the events in georgia ... they are threatening to suspend the process of integration into the european union, why did the georgian authorities choose this particular path? you know, this is really quite an interesting element, because if we remember, about six months ago, first of all, this this is not the first review of the law on foreign agents in georgia, there have already been attempts and there have already been very serious demonstrations in georgia, that is, they saw the reaction, they knew that the reaction of the georgian population would be just like this, and the most... in this law, not the fact itself if foreign lobbying or something else, because in many countries of the world there may be laws on such a topic, but the question is exactly that it is actually copied from the russian federation, and that is why you showed it very well in the story that it is the russians who call the government

and deputies who voted for this law, but on the other hand, we also had a very serious situation when ukraine and moldova were given the status of candidates, a georgian. were not provided, and then at first the georgian authorities accused the europeans of double standards and something else, then they realized that the problem was internal after all, and they went somewhere on... on the heels of it, they made certain changes in their rhetoric, in first of all, advances received this candidate status, because like all applications from brussels, it was granted this status to the people of georgia, not to the government of georgia, and once they got it, they went back to essentially the same consideration. what motivates them, apart from the will of one person or that party, which, unfortunately, has lost at the moment. population and has sufficiently close ties, as we can see with the russian politician, this is a question to which

we probably do not have an answer at the moment, whether we as experts did not take care of it, or whether it was simply such a clear calculation, we get candidate status, further let's go back to what we wanted to do, well, i also want to ask you about the georgian dream in georgia in october parliamentary elections, in your opinion, how can these protests affect... the pro-ruling party, the georgian dream? well, on the one hand, in any country, of course, such significant protests would have a direct impact on the elections, but here we should not forget two things: the first is how much time is left before the elections, this is a long enough period for of changing public opinion if the current crisis ends in something like this uncertain, and secondly, unfortunately, the current system of georgian elections is quite complex and such that it is, well, somewhere on... there are preferences of the party in power, so here itself, well, the electoral system, unfortunately, does not give

great chances of the opposition, the third is this element , what we talked about at the very beginning, the city of tbilisi, compared to the regions, with villages, which are much easier to bribe, and this happened, by the way, in the last elections, when in fact the chances were almost equal in opposition to the ruling party, but then... just right under the control of ivanishvili and others, but they simply did something, for example, they forgave debts there, well, you understand that many voters who did not have a clear political position, what is called buckwheat in our country, yes, georgians had it then by a large debt settlement to the banks, which, unfortunately, worked, therefore, taking into account the wealth of the oligarch ivanishvili, we can imagine that they will try to implement some such moment in these elections as well. yes, well, we will also monitor the situation, hanna sheles, director of security programs of the analytical

ukrainian prism center was with us, thank you. if last year the georgian authorities withdrew the draft law on foreign influence due to protests, now it seems that they are not going to back down, what could be the consequences, this is how the situation is analyzed by the expert of the eurasian group tinatin japaridze. the authorities not only underestimated the public's reaction to their decision to repeat. to bring up for consideration the draft law that caused controversy in the country last year. the timing chosen for this is rather strange, and frankly, not really logical. the zhovfne elections, in which the georgian dream party hoped to win with a large margin very soon, but the vladyka party is now quite worried that people are not dissociating, the rallies are continuing, the government did not expect such a reaction from society, it was a surprise for them. it is too early to say how this may affect the results of the ruling party in the elections. for now, we can assert. that those people who were not loyal supporters of the georgian dream, but were against the return of the main opposition

party of the united national movement, which once founded by mikheil saakashvili, they are now in a bit of an uncertain state. it is not only about the bill, but also about the recent speech of the founder of the georgian dream party, bidzina ivanishvili, which outraged many georgians, as he promised to punish, as he said, political rivals of criminals after the october elections, so this is a sign that... georgian the dream goes much further and is done much faster than even their opponents could have predicted. well, if we summarize the protests of georgia now not only against the draft law, which the opposition considers russian, and generally against the course of the government. and subscribe to our pages on social networks, so as not to miss the most important news, we are also on facebook, instagram and tiktok, on youtube, you can watch our episode if you missed it on the air. well, that's all. today there are more stories on our website bbc.ua, and we will be on the air tomorrow, as always,

first thing, good luck and take care of yourself. greetings, friends, this is the second part of the verdict program, we are working live on the tv channel, my name is serhiy rudenko, today in the program. five years of power zelenskyi, the peculiarities of ukrainian democracy in the conditions of war and the absence of elections, is the threat of authoritarianism in ukraine real? restriction of rights and freedoms against the background of mobilization. the announcement of the withdrawal from the convention on human rights caused a public outcry. is there treason in the actions of the authorities?

diplomacy with artificial intelligence. consular issues. on behalf of the ministry of foreign affairs, will a virtual spokeswoman now comment, or will a digital official be trusted? this is all we will talk about with our guests for the next 45 minutes, however, before introducing them, i will remind you that we are working not only on the live air of the tv channel, but also on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live there. please subscribe to our pages and also participate in our. in the survey, today we ask you about the following: do you see a threat to democracy in ukraine? yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, if you are sitting in front of the tv and watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote yes. 0800 211 381, no, 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free of charge and we have our

first guest on the phone, this is viktor boberenko, an expert from the bureau of policy analysis. mr. viktor, congratulations, thank you for being with us today. good health, mr. sergey. vitaly kulyk will join us in literally two minutes, but we will start with you in the format of a blitz poll. we are asking our tv viewers that viewers, do they see a threat to democracy in ukraine, do you see a threat to democracy in ukraine? definitely yes, i see a threat and zelenskyi's government, well... zelenskyi is trying to usurp power, they are trying to make this power as if it were extended in time, we remember, zelensky said that i am going there for one term, but in fact no, they are already thinking, and not only that, but when we speak, but

why do you think so, i have a very large evidence base, yes, if, well now. you need a blitz, yes, that is, i have a large evidence base in order to really claim that this is how zelenskyi’s team wants to usurp power in ukraine, and the usurpation of power is, in any case, the biggest threat to democracy, we throughout this program let's talk about this, of course, and about the trends that we see, and even more so, we must not forget that may this year is quite difficult. and for president zelensky, and for the team, and for society, and for those who have to be registered with the tsc and for potential mobilized people, because on may 4 the law comes into force, which provides for the definition of suitable, unsuitable and changes of limited suitability, on may 18

the law on changes to the mobilization legislation enters into force. the law on mobilization, well, on may 20, 5 years the inauguration of president zelenskyi, and we will also obviously talk about all this, about the context of what is happening and how it is happening, because, in fact, the most urgent question that exists now is where is the line when we say that there is democracy in ukraine and where is the limit, when there is a need to limit rights and freedoms, consider. or martial law, given that russia is waging war against ukraine, in your opinion, where is the line beyond which the government should not cross, and where is the line where civil society should, let's say, give a sign to the authorities of course, not by going to the maidan there, but to give a sign to the authorities that we remember that ukraine is a democratic

state and not an authoritarian one, and we will defend these democratic values. a very complex question, there really is no simple answer, because well we know about governance styles, yes there is authoritarian, there is democratic, there is liberal, yes, and i would say that, for example, which army will lose, the army with liberal or democratic governance , always loses armies with authoritarian management, why, because in the army should have everything in principle. in order to execute the report, and the army in which we will say, okay, we have a democracy, let's decide, let's vote, who will go to that forest plantation now. it's like there, and everyone there is like voting for that one to go, well, it's nonsense and lies, yes, and stupid, that is, in the army , the chief, well, the chief said everything, go ahead

there, i make decisions, including difficult decisions, yes, as i have one of, well, yes, one of my very good acquaintances, made the decision when leaving avdiivka, he was the company commander, to leave to... well, that is, to actually leave them russian, okay, how do we evaluate this decision, a criminal case was opened against him there, but i am ready to defend him, the commander made the decision because he decided for himself that it would be so, i'd rather keep these 15 people who are left or 20, but if i leave these three, i'll die carrying them all, well, that includes the right. the commander made a mistake, it can’t be something to be investigated there or accountable there, what the hell is democracy here, the commander said

everything, that’s a big deal, that’s a big deal, and that’s it it is important, it is important for us to understand that there cannot be a democracy in the army, but in our country we say that there is a military-political leadership, that is, in the army. the order to carry out the report, this is the principle of the army, but there should be democracy in politics, even in a warring country, and for now, mr. serhiy, we have a country that is fighting for european values, but the government itself does not profess these values ​​even on the run, not at all, well , he does not confess at all, and we must at least say that... our government is not mentally a european government, but our the government is thinking about how to preserve power and how to make money from power, yes, including, well, before

the war there was a lot of spying, and now there is a lot of reconstruction, a lot of reconstruction and a lot of construction of borders, where in the sumy region, well, in the sumy region, they can the composite reference point for... for example, there they declare something like 45 million there. what the hell are you, you are crazy, the composite reference point is 45 million. in the avdiyka, it will be made there, like , well, from some branches, doshuk there it's like what's being dug up there, that is, where the budget ones are there are no funds, and it works there, in the sumy region, which no one has yet attacked, you will be a platoon for 45 million. point to do and again we have to tell it to the authorities, but what is the problem of our authorities? the government's problem is that it ignores scientists, the expert environment,

that is, everything that we say there, and what's more, i will tell you that the espressa tv channel, which was on cable networks yesterday in akhtyrka, and i now i am working in one project on... the frontline communities of sumy oblast, then they disconnected espresso from cable television, and when i called the owner, he said: so why am i being harassed by the regional military administration, i’m just damned like being slapped there, that is, you will have other businesses at random, we will close you too, that business, that business, that , if you don't throw five straight espressos out of the cable networks, that's the pinnacle of democracy, of course. thank you, mr. viktor, for your opinion, vitaliy kulyk has already joined us, vitaliy, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast, congratulations, mr. viktor and i have already started

to talk about how democracy and the restriction of rights and freedoms coexist during martial law, well, no, not in the army, we are not talking about the armed forces, because mr. viktor said a little about the armed forces that there is no place where... this right, because the army is the army and the armed forces of ukraine have to make decisions at the level of the armed forces, military commanders, commanders, and there are no such claims against the armed forces or any objections, we are talking about ukrainian society, about the problems that arise in us or with the media, with three tv channels, which have not been broadcasting in t2 for the third year, were thrown out with... the common one, which is now aimed at by the deputies of the pro-government force, well, and many, many different things that indicate that, well... there are

restrictions on democracy and in what proportions restrictions on democracy are permissible during war, sir vitaliy, and do you see a threat to democracy in ukraine, we are conducting this survey among viewers and tv viewers, it is interesting to know your opinion, well, first of all, when we talk about the adoption of management decisions, the current government really does not want to hear anyone's opinion another opinion besides his own, and when it is on... and when someone's opinion breaks through the airwaves or becomes significant for society, it causes a kind of nervous reaction to the banks, accordingly, the nuts are tightened, they try to limit this alternative position, alternative opinion, they try to remove it both from the information space and from political life. yes, i see threats to democracy, i see a threat to society

first of all, because ah... nothing will be eternal, but temporary, if now the authorities are telling us that it is during the military excuse me, we already have a war, and that stopping the broadcast of the marathon will lead to media chaos, well, actually speaking, this is an attempt to hide, to hide one's inefficiency and one's own, in fact, one's own. one voice and one opinion are trying to suppress it and, accordingly , its ineffectiveness is such that it contradicts the values ​​and demands of society, they are trying to hide and exaggerate what, look, these are all attacks by russians, this is all russian ipso, when someone criticizes the current government, which it splits society, that these are attacks by paid kremlin bots and things like that, about

we have heard the hand of the kremlin for a long time. for the last 10 years , we have been constantly hearing that any criticism of the current government is always an attack on putin. in fact, this is not the case at all, because the office of simple solutions, it generates these solutions that turn out to be not just imperfect, they turn out to be criminal, and accordingly, when legitimate questions arise, and why exactly this happened, then they shout, positive bloggers appear , who start shouting that it's all done by hand. moscow, that this is all russian epso and russian agents, in my opinion, we have a political crisis now, this political crisis is unfolding, it is already measured in the lack of votes in the parliament to make the necessary bank decisions, this is the first, so they will manage to do it a few more times, and then they will choose everything they can, handing out money in envelopes to the deputies, well one- they will be able to do it twice, and then there is not much money in the parliament. but

here the question is not even about envelopes, the question is about motivating whole groups of interests, but for these whole groups of interests financial flows are necessary, there are not enough financial flows for all, the fodder base is assembled, for this is superimposed in the case of crisis relations between local self-government and the center, on top of that are superimposed the relations of business and the authorities, we hear from business, every week we hear a dozen or two... a dozen cases of extortion of business, show masks, pressure on tax officials, pressure from the sbushniks, pressure more someone, someone else, someone else, then they try to let off steam in the form of suspicions to the ministers, in fact it all does not work, yes, we see a crisis that is happening between, in the situation with mobilization, since the law promobilization, and the actions that the authorities are trying to enact , example,

mourning the ukrainians who left. were forced to go abroad and their access to consular services is restricted in an unconstitutional way, in my opinion, and the decision is made by the minister under pressure, and journalists, by the way, for example, the head of interfax, are talking about it, this clearly states that this is a political the will of the bank, even at the initiative of the minister of foreign affairs, a by-law act in the form of an order cannot go before implementation with... the law, first the law, then any by-law act, and this is also a violation, it is a violation of the constitution and others laws of ukraine, that is why such actions, they testify that the current government cannot save the situation, manage effectively, manage effectively in the existing way, many questions have accumulated in them, for which it does not have answers and is trying in the usual way himself way

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