and so there's a small fringe group that's willing to help in some way, they're all actually under attack, the possibility of losing their license, going to jail, because there's a direct increase in the number of political positions like that right now, and because of what it means for us to do research, imagine if you are a prisoner of war returning from captivity, this means, since russia was the first, the first time, they kept everyone together, then... every person who returns, they are direct, this is a very common practice, they directly memorized all the names and surnames of everyone people who were with them and until what time, in this way we can track every person that we have, and if he suddenly remembers the name of a person for whom we do not have applications, then it is also work on the contrary, to find relatives or find opportunities, how to enter this person into the base, and thus our research, they are completely...

concentrates on those people who return, on the one hand, on the other hand, they are constantly changing, that is, yes, this person remembered that two months ago, in the filtering camps, she saw those who and those who, that is why civilians, of whom there are more in there were filtration camps, because prisoners of war, as a rule , still did not pass through filtration, and these were civilians, so they can more or less describe what a filtration camp is, and according to the descriptions, according to the intelligence data that are in that ... including a lot of people, for example, the usa, they concentrated a lot on filtering procedures, because filtering in itself is not illegal, it is a question of how you carry it out, including a lot of sexual violence, well just expose a person because you want to look at all her tattoos, this is also, this is also sexual violence, by the way, now we see or have seen on the screen the footage of the last exchange, so we can... you see, in fact we are talking

about privates, sergeants, officers, of the armed forces of ukraine, of the national guard, the state border service and civilians, by the way, there are 19 people who were captured from zmiiniya island, 10 defenders of mariupol and azovstal, 14 military personnel from the chernobyl nuclear power plant, that is, how much more time has actually passed, more defenders, more than two years, yes. and the soldiers who were captured already in different directions, i.e. more than 70 people in total, if exactly 70 men and five women, four women are civilians, civilians, and there is also information that at least a third of the rescued people have injuries, serious illnesses, disabilities, that is, we can imagine, in fact, in what conditions

the occupiers keep our people there and in comparison to what conditions ukraine keeps those russians who came to our land, who are also kept in our specialized centers, by the way, if we talk about this, we know that a third center needs to be built right now, such a number of actually russian occupiers who are currently being held on the territory of ukraine, and we have seen the... conditions in which they are being held , the most important thing, you know, that we saw it, and the fact that they have access to the international committee of the red cross, which actually monitors, that yes, these are conditions corresponding to international humanitarian law, the russian federation did not grant such access, and so ukraine itself created a special one commission to determine among these people the wounded, or likewise, yes, those who have chronic diseases, and such people according to the opinion of this commission. can be

sent, for example, to the russian federation without these procedures of mutual simultaneous release. russia has not done this, and it does not allow the international red cross full access to all detention facilities, and many of these detention facilities, they are illegal, especially in the occupied territories. absolutely agree with you here. mrs. maria, please tell me at what level is often conducted. are there negotiations between ukraine and russia, are there possibly any mediators, well, we know that there are some mediators, yes, is it only the state that leads, or is it some private people, structures that lead in order to return both civilians and military personnel , in fact , only state bodies have such information, and no one from outside can get involved , we know that sometimes there are certain stories like there on... exchange, for example,

but it is all done very secretly, often about them no one knows, they are very often relatives asking government bodies to join the changes, they believe that they can somehow... influence it, but in fact we cannot understand the logic of how exactly these exchanges are carried out and how exactly certain people get into this exchange. we at the media institute often talk to people who have been released from captivity and we ask them: what influenced your release, did your relatives help, who often talked about you there on social networks, did some international actions, trips, and these people help, they don't know. why they were exchanged, because they say that, for example, i perfectly healthy, and the person who sat in the cell with me, he is already almost disabled, but he was not exchanged, but i was exchanged, and they, well, they do not understand what affects their exchange, nor can we follow why russia

does not hand over civilians, why does russia not hand over the seriously wounded, we know that there are still people with amputations, there are still a lot of military personnel. azov lizards that survived the terrorist attack in olenivka, they are still in the territory of either russia or temporarily occupied territories, and we even we don't know where they are, that's why we know that both the state, the patronage service of azov, and their relatives, they are fighting for their return, they are trying somehow at different levels to agree on their exchange, but unfortunately, it will soon be like the third anniversary, but no results, but can it be influenced by some such symbolic things for the occupiers... for example, they understand that this is azov, and this is some other structure there, so they hate azov with just terrible hatred, for example, if it is another structure , then they are somehow more loyal are concerned, are there any possible other approaches, they look at social networks there,

well, why am i saying this, because you said that there is no understanding why some people can be fired and others cannot, are there any opinions or maybe some information , but actually. and this is sometimes, these are really random lists, and because in this exchange a lot of guys from the snake were released, they have been in captivity since the first day of the full-scale invasion, as well as military personnel, national guards, who were in the emergency, we we know that they were in a very terrible state, psychologically and physically, but why is there such a ... gap between exchanges, for example, azov has not been exchanged since may 6 , 2023, then there was the last omen with the azovians, and there are also a lot of people in polonia there are representatives of the 501st battalion of marines, and they are still in captivity, the last

exchange was on january 31, if i am not mistaken, then one representative of the 501st battalion was released, and even the relatives themselves do not understand. why was he released, because the 501st battalion is not exchanged, but he was released, fortunately, but there are still a lot of guys, and we know that there are already dead people from this battalion in captivity, their bodies are returned, but they are not exchanged, and despite the fact that public organizations, the state, and relatives on international at various meetings, both in public and on the independence square, they come out and shout about them everywhere, it does not affect russia in any way, there are also... a lot of servicemen there from the 24th brigade named after king danylo, the 56th brigade, well that is , they are not exchanged very much either, why, well, that is still a question open, we do not understand why they are not exchanged there and in general no one knows about their whereabouts, well, but here

it is important to understand that there is one more point, they began to be condemned by military personnel, and we remember this court that she tried arrange in mariupol, that is... they have this symbolic hatred and attitude towards particularly bright persons, one of them is maksym butkevich, a human rights defender who only in 2018 won the european court of human rights, a case against russia, respectively, as only him gets captured by them, they simply tear up their media sphere with stories about how he is a nazi, a fascist, a propagandist, and in fact, that is, for them it is especially sacred. figures who, well, this russian ideological symbolism is so-called, and they directly condemn them, that is, they also want a show in the form of a court, they want to show that there is a punishment, it comes to these people, and here it is in such cases , when people

have already passed the day and they enter this system as, roughly speaking, as criminals for them, not just as prisoners of war, but here they fall into the general system. the general system of control over everything, this is the federal correctional system, and there, for example, even if it is possible, for example, correspondence, and you do not understand whether it is better or not better, because every time... the investigators tell them that the court agrees , plead guilty, then you will be exchanged, and we see from maxim that nothing is happening, ms. oleksandra, and at least someone is exchanged after these so-called courts, is this already the worst option, we do not want to say the worst option, but so far there is no, unfortunately, there was no such question as to which states contribute as mediators. in order for either prisoners of war or

civilians to return to ukraine, perhaps, recently, even russia itself, they said that these exchanges were supported by the united arab emirates, when on september 21, 2022, one of the largest exchanges took place among the azovians, then turkey took part directly, because the commanders of azov were transported to turkey. and also, probably, someone can remember, there was an exchange that even ukraine did not i knew, he was there last year, at that time, hungary, yes, took 11 representatives from transcarpathia, they were servicemen of different brigades, but hungary considered them ethnic, as hungarians, although they are representatives of ukraine, citizens of ukraine, and this happened through the orthodox church . through the orthodox church, and then there was a lot of indignation, because no one reported about ukraine, and we

often, when we visit some foreign events, we go to the osce, we try to draw the attention of various representatives of various countries that we ourselves cannot cope with the return of these people, and we really need some country that will agree to take on this role of some mediator, but for now we... still expect that someone will still agree to be this without well, as a mediator, russia must understand that if some country, and other countries, stand up for our prisoners of war, and these prisoners are repatriated to that country, this is a guarantee that these people will no longer participate in an armed war, that is, they will no longer will not return to the battlefield, and we guarantee it, but for russia and our guarantees, and the guarantees of some of our international partners. they are absolutely, that is, here, if possible, i will add, that is, which means that ukraine offers support in the format, ukraine

concludes an agreement with such a country, and this country should conclude an agreement with russia, that is, it is not just the desire of this country, this country must be, why arab countries very often appear here, this country must be of interest to russia, that is, the usa, or switzerland, which traditionally acts as such a country between the conflicting parties, rejected, switzerland signed an agreement with ukraine, but russia did not confirm switzerland, because it considers it an unfriendly country, that is, it must be a politically neutral country that is accepted by russia, not just neutral, that is, austria is a neutral country, it has such a status, it has such a status , the vatican is a neutral country, switzerland also officially has the status of a neutral country in oona, such countries in europe were finland, sweden, now we understand that they joined nato, ireland. but ireland, as well as switzerland, immediately entered very brightly on

on the side of ukraine. that is, it should be a country in relations with which russia is interested, but at the same time we can be sure that they will be neutral, and not just on russia's side. therefore, qatar, turkey, the arab emirates, all those countries in which there is interest from russia, hungary and the same one, yes, which we clearly see politically with russia, appear here. maintains contact, and here too this moment is very important, that this third country, after all, there was a situation with hungary that, for example, there were conditions that these soldiers were not return to ukraine, they have families, well , that means they do not return to ukraine, and this, and these are such details in international humanitarian law, they are also prescribed, and in the end such a third party can be the international committee of the red cross , if he sees that all other countries have refused, between... the people's committee of the red cross can also become such a third party, well , we don't see them in such processes yet,

neutral in all directions, i would also like to talk about certain practical things, because very often our citizens see u the so-called propaganda videos of their relatives, their loved ones, so what to do in such a case, if a person saw either a civilian or a military... a prisoner, but in any video clip, whether it was an official resource of the occupying state, or in some channel there, relatively speaking. on some social network, what to do, where to go, that is , first of all, of course, the easiest thing to do is to go to the police, all this information will eventually come into contact with the national, national information bureau, this is a special body that appeared in our country, unfortunately, only in 2022, or almost in 2014, but in the meantime, this

information, it gets there, but like the media initiative on human rights, and the center for civil liberties, we help relatives we support. to the international red cross to write a letter to them, because they are precisely the ones who, after all, communicate with the russian side, the national information bureau, and a criminal case is opened, respectively, it is the police and the prosecutor's office, but we understand that many people are now relocated from his place and so on, then ngos. ready to accompany, help. also, it's really, really important to actually have your own community. many relatives, prisoners , both civilians and marines, azov residents, they have already grouped together and help each other, including if suddenly they see a photo or video, where it may not be their relative, but a relative of someone from who do they communicate with

in this community, they, this is the best system in fact for finding information. open sources, these are relatives who are motivated, and therefore there is an exchange of this information, in addition, it is important to support, in fact, relatives suffer, sometimes no less than those people who are in captivity or in prison, because it is not yet certain, you do not know in what condition your loved one is, and therefore it is so important to support them, and here ukraine can do it, because these people are at home, they, they are ours, and that is why it is so important... to do this, and for example, at arsenal, we presented such a project called we hold on, we hold on, this poetry, and partly -partly these poetic numbers, and the poetic numbers were based on those poems that were sent to us from captivity, because people could already write from there, and things like that, they are super important, symbolic

support of relatives, so there are places to turn, there are a whole set of instructions, we published them directly, but you have to remember... that this support is from us, from the ukrainian society, he must be a relative at all times. ms. maria, do independent searches take place, it happens that people independently try to search for their own person, their relative or just an acquaintance, and another question, professional, tell me what information cannot be published distribute, as with the so-called independent search. also, regarding the photo you mentioned, this is such a practical tip, usually when videos and photos of captivity come out, you won't see a civilian there, so for civilians it's a big problem, however, if your relative is a pow , a military man who is missing, and you saw his photo or video on russian resources, then you need

to contact the coordination headquarters, they have a defender's office, where you can upload ... these photos and videos, coordination headquarters will review it all, identify it, if the photo is unclear, you can contact your investigator who is conducting your criminal case, conduct a match examination to see if it is really this person, and then the coordination headquarters in the same office will change the status of your relative from missing to a captive, so this is just one of the searches that he does on his own. they monitor all russian resources, because, well, unfortunately, this is still one of the most effective methods of finding your native, because we often help to write relatives, they hire some lawyers who write requests in the territory of the russian federation or in the occupied territory, and often these requests simply go nowhere, because there is only one answer,

there is no such person here, and that is why these searches are underway. for relatives , we also know from the experience of some groups of families that we help, that we monitor these telegram channels, we recently had a press conference with the 57th brigade, they have a lot of experience in finding their relatives, there are a lot of missing people , a lot missing in the luhansk direction in the period from february to june 2022, and there are very few. and the relatives tried by any means to find, somehow get into these positions, they somehow contacted the people who still remained in these territories, asked them to visit them. er positions, so yes, relatives independently, they conduct a lot of searches, they monitor almost everything, and often we are faced with the fact that relatives have

more information than our state bodies have, by the way, about your article and about 57 brigade, separately would like to ask you, there the situation is special, because in fact, let's put it this way, more than 100, 120 are considered missing, right? but for some reason, for example, the red cross confirms only 12, as far as i understand, yes, why does this happen, what we understand, the real number of people is 100, 200, it may be more, for example, officially the red cross or another public organization confirms there 12, 15 , 20. it is interesting to hear this opinion of yours, because you wrote about it, you talked about it, why is it so in fact? and if we talk about this particular case, ibid

were, for example, on february 24, the 57th brigade is a settlement of trechbank, there are many confirmed prisoners, they are still in captivity, they exchanged very few, if we take the period of novotoshkivka and toshkivka of the luhansk region, there were very heavy battles and... there was a boiler in toshkivka in june 2022, there is an area of ​​high-rise buildings where our military occupied their positions, they came under heavy artillery fire, and it is still impossible for search parties to get there, we also know that the 57th brigade was opposed at that time wagner and akhmat unit, and we were able to talk to... one released from that period, he was not confirmed, he was received in luhansk sizo, and he did not see any of his brothers during that

period, while he was in captivity, and russia, she does not confirm these people until now, respectively, that's why they confirmed only 12, but russia reported only about 12 people, we don't know anything about the rest, it's been two years, where are they, are they still somewhere in luhansk , or were they transported to .. russia is released from captivity when we ask whether have you seen someone from the 57th brigade, they say no, accordingly, if they were captured by the lpr there, then there were some videos with them, relatives found these videos, we talked with a few people who were released from captivity there, but those who were captured captured by wagner, here the situation is completely different, because wagner does not report at all about whom they capture, and 57 was also in donetsk. in the direction of bakhmut, they have a very difficult situation there, and when wagner left bakhmut, they took prisoners with them, and that was the end of the story, because no one

does not know where vagna's prisoners were taken. ms. oleksandra, in conclusion, questions about relatives, about psychological support, it is extremely difficult when relatives realize that... someone from their family, someone from their acquaintances is in captivity, how is psychological support, communication with people, support in general for them at any stages, relatively speaking, the search and return of prisoners of war or civilians, well , most often this support takes place through ngos, that is, they are public organizations that directly find, look for some... money in order to work both as a psychiatrist and as psychologists, and we must remember that this is called the trauma of the second circle, that people,

even in whom someone has returned from captivity, still continue to be under stress and need rehabilitation, support, let me remind you that if we have certain rehabilitation programs for prisoners of war, they are not ideal either, but they exist, for civilians they do not exist at all, and this, and this... is a huge question for us, as for the state, as for the ukrainian society, that we should prepare to the fact that such people, in order to return them, or maybe we want from every citizen to be efficient, to generate a financial flow, to raise the economy, to raise the demographics, well, for this , people need people, people need to be rehabilitated, and psychologically and physiologically, it means health care, directly, restoration of this health, because in us. there were cases when the mother finally survived her son's captivity and died of a heart attack literally a week later, because this is an emotional and physiological stress. and therefore yes

it is important for us to think about it, including to think emotionally, that is, a lot of people go on sundays to support the actual azov demonstrations and after returning from captivity, and it is important not only that it is not a way to put pressure on russia there, but we know that the demonstration in kyiv, you will not press russia, but it is important, including the method of solidarity, to understand that this is a problem not only for relatives, but that... the whole society supports them, and therefore psychologically it will be a long road, but if we start it now, he, he will happen sooner, and at the same time time we have to remember that it is really important to talk about this in the international arena, we do not know at what moment putin will want new negotiations not with ukraine, but with some germany or france or the usa, and there the first point should be civilians captives,

prisoners of war. and of course the children who are stolen, well, today we are just not talking about this topic, and that is why it is so important for us to remember that this fight continues, and this, and this is our fight. i am sincerely grateful to you, oleksandra romantsova, human rights activist, executive director of the center for civil liberties, and maria klymyk, journalist, representative of the media initiative for human rights, thank you once again for this thorough conversation. a difficult conversation, an important conversation, because we must talk about it, we must tell about it, and as a state, as a society , do everything to return our prisoners of war and civilians from russian captivity. stay tuned to the espresso tv channel, see you soon.

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