does not mean anything good for ukraine, that is , they will mention taxpayers, and we would like them to talk primarily about ukraine and these funds at the big seven. the second is the issue of financial assistance, this is the issue of loans, this is the issue of financial-financial assistance, these are again the cases that will be repeated later during the peace summit, in particular from the main corridor, issues of nuclear safety, which is very important, but in the context current shelling and the destruction of our... system, the question of the fate of zaporozhye nuclear plant, pressure on russia with the aim of its possible inclusion in the energy system of ukraine, i think that this would also be a certain case, unfortunately, it is difficult to talk about it now, because there are documents of the ministry of energy and mineral resources, a few days ago, they appeared, which also, well, they fix the problem, fix the negative situation, fix the presence of russian occupiers at the nuclear plant, but... this is not a lever with which

you can hang the russians and force them to have some kind of substantive conversation regarding the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, that is the case, well what to do with our debts, unfortunately, even representatives of ukraine in financial donors and financial institutions advise ukrainian experts not to raise the topic of debts, in my opinion, this is a big mistake, because we are in such a difficult situation that... to bear the burden of debt payments in a war situation, well, we can have a dialogue, and there is such a possibility, if we are talking about certain legal mechanisms, or even i would say political and legal mechanisms, is there a possibility, for example, how to write off a part of these debts at a minimum, firstly, this was repeatedly discussed in the 22nd and 23rd years, that is, debts incurred before the beginning invasion, this is a subject for conversation, the debts that you... say as a result of providing

credit assistance, first of all, in line, they already foresee certain possibilities of relaxation for ukraine, but in general, this discussion, in my opinion, is not articulated, i understand political risks, because when we only raise the issue of debt relief or restructuring or reducing the burden there, it creates problems for our european partners, because the same taxpayers say, why... judge like this, why subsy comes out of our pockets subsidizing, you and this is how you provide assistance, and also write off their debts, at the expense of who will pay for all this, yes, that is why there is, here is a big question, the second, the second is the creation of precedents, it is obvious that in this situation, international donors, judicial and financial institutions, well, did not want to have such a precedent, because then it would create problems between all creditors, and all participants of the same imf, for example, or the word bank. asked the question, why then

do you not make such concessions to our clients, why such an exclusive position regarding ukraine? let me remind you that this will most likely be discussed at the g7, and during the peace summit it will be actively discussed, that the mistrust of the global south of the third world towards the west, it exists and is deepening, accordingly there is a european yes west, so to speak, when raises the issue of aid to ukraine and continues to talk about it. then the global south takes a break and says that this is your client, you are responsible for him, you help him, and then why are there such double standards in relation to countries that are developing or countries that are above normal poverty in africa, then why don't you make concessions to them and write them off and carry out the restorization of debts to these countries, that's why i think there are certain flights here. risks, but this does not

prevent kyiv from asking this question, it is a question of political dialogue and bargaining, it is a question of the fact that if we carry out normal and successful advocacy, then we can get certain results, we can cite many examples when even in a situation of civil wars, in latin america, countries sought debt cancellation, that is, history knows about such experiences, well, clearly, we have to set the bar as high as possible in order to at least get something optimal, and. another very, by the way, important issue is the signing of, actually, bilateral security agreements between the united states of america and ukraine, in particular president zelenskyi, he stated that preparations are underway for the signing of such and such an agreement, yes, he is talking about this stated following the meeting with the president of the united states of america, joe biden, if we are talking about this, first of all, when should we...

expect whether within the framework of the j7 or whether it will be some a separate, possibly event, and yet what we will get from this agreement, i do not want. dates on coffee grounds, but it seems to me that it could be just during the g7 summit, as such a gift for ukraine, well, in quotation marks, a gift, for the absence of biden at the peace summit, because the main claim from kyiv to washington is biden himself absent, the president of the united states, as our main partner, and his presence, it would increase the weight of the summit itself, but on the other hand, we understand that... out of ten questions , three remain, that the level of presence decreases from every time that many countries refuse to come at the highest level by sending there either ministers of legal affairs or special representatives, and i do not think that this is a big failure, i think that it is a consequence of inflated expectations in general from the dialogue with

the global rooster. and if we do return to the actual signing of the agreement between the usa and ukraine, what will this agreement entail, will it be a formality, or will it be conventionally speaking? formalization, or rather what we already have, because in any case we have certain relations with the usa, financing from on the us side, or will it be something more that will give us additional opportunities in the future? blinkin opened the curtain on this agreement a little earlier, it foresees 10 years of cooperation, detailed algorithms of interaction, consultations, in case of a possible end of active hostilities in ukraine , a new aggression of some kind. they promise there a quick consultation and joint measures to repel this and that aggression, that is, they will not wait three days, which is already good. on the other hand, there is a whole set of issues in the draft, which some experts allegedly saw there, the first in

the first priority was the provision of financial assistance, provision of military assistance, military-technical equipment, ammunition, provision of intelligence information, logistics, etc. and this is the question of how the obligation of the united states is to provide the necessary amounts of this aid requested by ukraine within 10 years, and accordingly, a change in the political leadership of the united states cannot lead to a revision of this agreement within 10 years. in order to review it, the new president will have to go through certain procedures. it's congress, it's senate, it's a hearing, so it should be too. can be stretched over time, it is also difficult to block the implementation, that is, this is a mechanism for the internal american kitchen, but for ukraine it is more predictability of this assistance and a clearer algorithm of its provision, in what we saw in the security agreements with

great britain and france, something similar will be reflected in the treaty with the united states, it is believed that in this treaty there will be support, of the united states, for ukraine's membership in nato, but as far as i understand, on the part of kyiv there is a question that there time parameters were determined. so there is a deadline, there are circumstances under which ukraine can acquire membership in nato, that is, it is the cessation of hostilities, let's say, control over the territory, a certain level of gdp there and a percentage for defense, these are the corresponding parameters of a security nature and passage. own procedures of quality democracy, governance, judicial system, etc., that is, all these copenhagen agreements, principles, but again, we would like more clarity in this agreement, and the mechanism, how it will happen at the level of automation,

that is, the algorithm that is included, and on the other hand, the united states and biden are hardly ready to tell us the date when ukraine will be a member of nato, and we can see. his speech and statement, by the way, if, i apologize, if we do touch on this topic, then we are talking about payden's statement, but i would also like to ask you briefly, to ask what kind of statement it was, this is a red light for ukraine regarding joining nato? no, i said that the red light is that there are certain, certain warnings that washington is showing to its partners and the global south, uh, so... that is partners outside the west that the united states has, that the united states does not want, that is, the main claim to biden was from the countries of the global south, primarily even those who are in friendly relations with the united states, that the united

states carry out natization of ukraine. remember, he is the one in this speech, he said that the united states is not going to natize. country, but this, this does not take away the question that it is a matter of time when our membership will be, when it will be, he does not say and tries to talk, this question is not to say when, and on the other hand, we understand it as, if it is temporary, then it can be forever, and that's it, it removes these problems, moreover, there is an important issue here, so that this agreement does not turn into an ersatz, a promise of nato membership , that we give you security assurances almost there, we guarantee you military assistance, we will join your defense in case of there... major circumstances, certain problems on the front, but you postpone nato membership for a while, a little

later, or at all do not raise this issue yet. this is a replacement, a replacement with this agreement nato membership is, in my opinion, the main risk. this, by the way, is what extremely stirred up, i would say, ukrainian society, and many politicians, experts abroad, all began to reproduce this statement and say that, relatively speaking, ukraine will be there in the near future. nato is not going to be in the medium term, or if we're talking in the context of this statement, that is, in your opinion, it's not, relatively speaking, the ultimate red light that we talked about, will be possible in the future move it from dead center. i will remind you that all previous conversations, especially on the part of american experts, were based on a scientific scenario, let's freeze the conflict, ugh, let's stop it. war, we will come to some kind of cease-fire memorandum, we do not record territorial losses, we do not

recognize russia's annexations and occupations there, but here we are without him some kind of dividing line and here is the territory under the control of ukraine, we undertake to accept it into the european union in a certain period, and nato is a little bit a distant prospect, but we also fix some such date, and only a question. about the acquisition of membership, it becomes relevant after the ceasefire and the verification of this ceasefire, and now it is obvious that putin is waging a war for a long time, that he is not interested in a complete freeze of this war, that even a decrease in the intensity of combat reports does not mean its termination, that is, that , which was during the anti-terrorist operation, will be multiplied there by three, let's say this, and this does not mean that we will have cease-fire regimes there, it will mean that the front can move, but not in such a way intensity, such as now, yes, and it

will be called a cease-fire, accordingly, that under such conditions, the acquisition of ukraine's membership in nato means that as soon as we get nato membership, then nato will be forced to respond to the fact that is happening on the line of confrontation, whether it is aggression or not aggression, these are huge risks of a legal collision between two nuclear powers, this is a step away from nuclear war, without the essence of a large framework, a large architecture that is safe in europe to enter such a risky history, the west is unlikely to be able to, therefore, this encourages biden to such statements, and accordingly, until there is this great new security architecture in europe, where deterrence will be effective, where russia will be more likely to take military action, or it has now, then we can get some date for membership in nato, for now, unfortunately, we won't get it, you can press, you can prove. i think that as soon as we win this war, nato membership will be automatic for us, as soon as there is a question of

how much it will be needed in general then, well, now yes, this is one of the possibilities the end of the war, the end of the war, but again, this is how far the west is ready for these risks, about the peace summit, this summit is supposed to take place in the coming days, where it is stated that only three of the 10 positions of the ukrainian peace formula should remain, and this is also a problem in principle, by the way, colleagues from european truth have published an article in which there are certain warnings that this, relatively speaking, is almost not a certain loss or retreat of ukraine in its positions, after all, what should we expect, why was reduced to three, and of course, if we say so, then will there be any... result, is it really, as it is said in this article, a certain problem

for ukraine and the cementing of the order that, for example, some countries of the global south demand, for example, regarding the negotiations, well, first of all, we are talking about what, about the fact that it is necessary to bring together various proposals for peace negotiations, various cases with a peace formula, switzerland has repeatedly said at the level of diplomatic... representatives that it does not reject the possibility of russia's participation in different formats, in peaceful ones negotiations eh, in addition, through switzerland, the representatives of... the global south also believe and voice the chinese version of peace talks, that such talks are possible when different proposals are discussed, that is, different algorithms, in particular the chinese plan, the plan from the republic of south africa, the plan from brazil, there are proposals from the vatican, india, indonesia, etc., all of them are united

around one thing, that it should be a direct negotiation between ukraine and russia, for ukraine such... such a position is unacceptable, because it does not take into account, this is a disparity, negotiations must always be internationalized, they must take place from the position of recognizing who is the victim, who is the attacker, only then will we be able to achieve some obvious parity in this process, we cannot enter into direct negotiations now , moreover, where russia does not want it, they will be torpedoed in every possible way, any attempts to enter into a negotiation process with russia. ends with the manipulation of the agreements themselves and the very course, even the very fact of the negotiations, russia has already begun to manipulate, for example, the istanbul negotiations, the piece of paper that putin is waving is their draft, prepared by us, which the ukrainian delegation simply got acquainted with, this does not mean that we signed it, he submits it as a signed plan, therefore to enter into negotiations with russia is

more expensive, accordingly, such a format is impossible, but on the other hand, for some reason in kyiv on... diplomats and the political leadership believed that they would be able to gather a large representation at a high level to create a strong negotiating team position and create institutionalized conditions, conditions of pressure on russia, that our partners within the framework of the peace formula and participants of the summit will also agree to continue the sanctions regimes, to increase them, to increase pressure, to increase the position. pressure on those who did not join in order to involve them in this process, and because of this step by step adding russia to the negotiations in an internationalized format, it is obvious that this is not interesting to the global south, moreover, such a formula , it

turned out to be torpedoed as much as possible with the beginning military operations in the middle east, appeared... the fronts of a global war and , accordingly, the situation when the united states supported israel and the west supported israel and supports ukraine, is perceived by the global south as an unjust war in the middle east, for our case, it is added as an appendix to the big picture, that is, you support israel, you support the imperialist who is carrying out the genocide of the palestinians in gaza, they say... muslims in many countries hang palestinian proportions and use narratives that resemble chinese or russian propaganda, respectively, to convince these people that we have a different story, that it is not about the same one, yes, well, it is difficult enough that we are also victims of imperialism, that we are victims of a genocidal war, it becomes more and more difficult, and the fact that we did not take advantage of this

comparison of genocidal histories, did not find this point of contact with... the colonization discourse also in the same africa, although we open an embassy there, allegedly there were raids on kuleb, the minister of foreign affairs, but we did not kill the russian and chinese narratives there and as a result we have little global support, but the non-participation of china, brazil, perhaps the low level of representation of some countries of the near and far east, in general the global south, is this a problem? i think that... that this is our common problem, because the russians, our partners the united states, for example, did not have a proper conversation with the same brazil, and the west could put some pressure on the countries of the global south, in particular those that are not are in close military-political cooperation with russia and china, and they could

to be represented, even their personal point of view, without even signing a common one there. komenyuk's memorandum, they could voice their position, and that would be good. moreover, there was preliminary confidence that china would be represented at least at the level of a special representative. and as far as i understand, i am not giving up trying there yet, and our, our diplomats, and the united states have called on china to take part at the level of its representative, or at least the ambassador, of china in switzerland. in the peace summit, however, no, and it seems that this position of the absence of china, it will affect and on many other representatives of the global south, south asia, latin america, africa, who also either... took their representation as promised, or will not come and will keep a distance, moreover,

our willingness to make compromises in order to get the final declaration , as for me, here i agree to a certain extent with my colleagues from european truth, they can play a rather negative role, we cannot at the first stage of the negotiation process, even around the peace formula, take on commitments that would... pity our national interest. the three issues that are being raised now at the summit are only the first step. and of course, i would not make a big tragedy out of the absence of china, the reduction of representation. this is just the first step in a big process, there will be several more rounds, there will be rounds of a different format. i am even more convinced that russia and china will try to hold an alternative summit. obviously, we can also work on third sites, in particular, we can appeal. to central asia, for example, to kazakhstan, the same one that offered its intermediary services, that is, there are various ways to continue this dialogue, and the swiss summit will only be

the first such step. very briefly, literally a minute about the elections to the european parliament, which are taking place right now, there will be some surprises, there will be some negatives for ukraine, whether everything will be fine and support from the outside. at least in the european union , sociology shows an increase in the ratings of political parties that are part of such a european union, identity and democracy, these are such right-wing populist movements, and conservatives and reformists, that one the european party, such traditional neoconservatives are included in it, and it is exactly where fatigue from ukraine can be traced, skepticism in helping ukraine, frankly ukrainofopsky par. they include the increase of their representation and their possible coalition in the european parliament between these two political forces, this of course can create certain problems for social democrats, and

liberals and conservatives who support us by consensus, but in my opinion, a feature of the current european parliament , which will be chosen, it will be the concentration is no longer on foreign policy issues, on the internal issues of europe, in europe a lot has accumulated... problems to be solved, primarily of a socio-economic nature, this is unemployment, this is migrants, this is the problem of the judiciary, this is the issue of sovereignty, this is the issue of anti-crisis measures that can involve monetary policy, etc. , transport policy, where brussels is trying to limit sovereignty, and the right will surf on this, populists will try to use euroscepticism, speak prexits and so on similar, there is the suspension of membership, there is pressure on brussels. and similar things, and it is of course that the parliament itself will be shaken, but in general the majority is usually kept by pro-ukrainian political forces,

friends of ukraine will be represented there, mostly those friends who made a significant contribution when they were deputies or leaders of their countries or of their political forces in the countries, but more negative pressure will come from national elections, when elections will be held for the parliaments of european countries, including in germany, for example, we will see growth there as well. influence of populists, and even then the situation can be really complicated. thank you, mr. vitaliy, for this conversation, vitaliy kulyk, political expert, director of the center for the study of civil society problems, was with us for an exclusive interview, well, we will definitely see you next time, already at our interview there will be other people, we will always talk traditionally about all our most important events. country and the world, let's hold on and goodbye, there are discounts that represent

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of the ministry of defense. on satellites. pictures of the resort show a tear from