this summons had a positive effect on me, i became more cheerful. thank you so much for such an incredible trip, it will never be forgotten in my heart. let's together give memories that will warm hearts and help to survive these difficult and scary moments.

greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the second part of the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, and in this part we will talk about the following. trial by hire. the berlin conference on the reconstruction of ukraine was held without the director of the specialized state agency. what will end public... the conflict of hire and swindler.

the actual vice president of ukraine. the western press writes about the concentration of power in the hands of andriy yarmak. who is he, the head of the president's office, the gray cardinal, or a usurper? economy booking. the verkhovna rada may consider a bill on deferrals for workers in the real sector of the economy. fairer we will talk about this and other things in the next 45 minutes. let me remind you that we work not only on the live broadcast of the tv channel, but also on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are now us watch live there. please subscribe to our pages, take part in our survey. today we are asking you about whether you support the idea of ​​economic reservation from mobilization. it is about the fact that the enterprise. according to the draft law, which has already

been submitted to the verkhovna rada of ukraine, will pay uah 2,000 per month for its employee, and in this way prohibits its employee, so we ask you if this idea will be adopted, or whether this idea will be for public discussion, or you support the idea of ​​economic defense against mobilization? yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, either yes or no, write your comment if it goes beyond the obvious. answers under this video, and like this video, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphones, vote on 0800 211 381, if you support the idea of ​​economic booking from mobilization, and if not, then 0800 211 382 , so friends, at the end of the program... we will summarize the results of this

vote, we will see the full picture, or do you support economic booking or not, and now i want to introduce our guests, this is maksym rozumny, political expert, doctor of political sciences, mr. maksym, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, good evening, and volodymyr fesenko, political scientist, chairman of the board of the center for applied political research penta, mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast. greetings, gentlemen, we ask our viewers and tv viewers what they think about economy booking from mobilization, i would like to hear your answers to these questions in the format of a close question, whether you support the idea of ​​economic armoring from mobilization, mr. volodymyr, let's start with you. i support, i even proposed exactly this approach, so that the opportunity to receive reservations was not received physically.

person, as previously suggested, then it would be an injustice, well, you, who have high salaries, they pay the most taxes, well , they get reservations, now they will get reservations. companies that will to pay additional funds into the budget, they will decide, because they need workers, there at the new post office, i know, metallurgical plants, agricultural businesses, they need workers, some drivers, some welders, some people who work in the logistics business, so i think it's fair, you have to help the country, either at the front or through paying taxes, and that's... promoting the economy, not evading mobilization. the problem is that the cabinet needs to get things in order with the reservation in general, that's why what is there now, sorry for the politically incorrect term, a real mess. thank you, mr. volodymyr, mr. maksym, are we talking about

justice, when or injustice, when we are talking about economic reservation and what the society itself can think, how the society will perceive it. i can predict that the idea of ​​accompanying the reservation of payments, financial, monetary, will be perceived as a blatant injustice, as a new sense, and in this sense, it is unlikely that this idea will be very popular in society, but in general the logic that can be seen in this the question, so to speak... begins from the moment when what the previous participant of our conversation said, the mess that exists at the level of decision-making, at the level of regulation, at the level of defining strategy and

tactics, carrying out that mobilization, that is when it spreads to lower and lower levels, that is , when in... authorized bodies they cannot make decisions and implement effective policies, then they begin to appeal to the concept of justice, well, this is how it is established in ukrainian society, it is very difficult to find justice, because here they oppose the interests of some people and other people, and accordingly the understanding of justice itself among different groups and categories of the population are different, so this whole question... on an even lower level, who will pay off and who, so to speak, lobbies in the relevant bodies and in the relevant institutions, solutions , unfortunately, this algorithm has already been tested by many of our problems, and it cannot be said that it

is successful, but can you reply, please, yes, this is exactly how it is happening now, this is how, when lobbying, dubious people appear . authors who receive the right to avoid mobilization, there are various gaming companies and so on, here is a purely economic approach, clear, transparent, you pay, a legally operating company, you pay additional money, yes, for those employees that you want to keep for your business, and this is normal, this works for the ukrainian economy and additional money for the defense of the country, well, actually, yes, please. ukrainian society will react, and we will see the result. well, by the way, why does ukrainian society react negatively, not to the topic of justice, it is, i would say, pretentiousness in fact, those who criticize are against mobilization as such. that's the problem. by the way, i wanted

to explain to our tv viewers why we started with this topic, because a bill on economic reservation was registered in the verkhovna rada of ukraine, and i reported about it. people's deputy natalukha, he has always been quite active in favor of this economic reservation, which provides for this draft law, which is already in the ukrainian parliament, every business entity that pays an increased military levy in the amount of 20,000 hryvnias per month for an employee, has the opportunity to book it, the payment of the increased fee is not done by the employee, but by the business itself, and the head of the parliamentary committee on national... security and defense, people's deputy from servants of the people oleksandr zavitnech said that the idea of ​​economic reservation from mobilization is exactly will be introduced in ukraine, but it is not yet clear in what format it will be implemented. mr. volodymyr, you say that you have always

been a supporter of this economy booking, but when exactly for companies not for individuals, yes, when not redeemed by a non-individual, legal company pays yes. what's the point, well , let's say this, if there is a fop, then he has at least five workers, and this fop can book his workers and pay 20 00 for each one, so that they are... booked and working in the enterprise, it is, i understand that this idea is not very well received by both the government and the office of the president, solely because it creates unequal opportunities or creates a certain, let's say, social tension, because people who are not working, or people who do not work in such companies, who are ready to work for someone, they will be in unequal conditions, that is, some will be mobilized, and others will simply pay into the budget. well, conditionally speaking, this military levy should be calm, but now, what is the injustice now, because

they are mobilizing those without any payments to the budget, they are mobilizing those who work legally, at the same new post office, at the same metallurgical plants, at various legal enterprises, that's what is unfair, the state does not receive money and takes people who work legally, but you, who do not work legally, work in the shadows, for some reason they are not hired, and what not... what should cause, let's say , social tension, these are mobilization methods, but if you want to relieve social tension, deal with mobilization methods, regarding dissatisfaction, i don’t know what the president’s office thinks there, i haven’t heard their opinion, but regarding the cabinet, my opinion is this, there are people who solve the issue of mobilization in manual mode, or rather reservation from mobilization in manual mode . here's the same lobbying, and i'm afraid that these people are on it

they just make trivial money, and that’s why we need elaborate mechanisms so that some person in the cabinet does not decide the reservation issue, there was a clear mechanism for what professions, for example, how many drivers are needed at the front, how many drivers are needed in the rear, how many doctors are needed at the front, how many in the rear , this is not for business, but for state institutions, well, in general. and social institutions, but for business, yes, it is necessary to give an opportunity, they want to keep a minimum of their employees, it is critically necessary, yes, well, if you have the opportunity to pay additional money for these workers, it is normal, and the state benefits from this, and business benefits from this, and money for the front appears, and it is fair, but when those who work legally are taken, and the state does not receive any money, but social injustice. exists because of bad mobilization methods, this is unfair, mr. maxim, it is clear that now there is

this shadow circulation of this military levy, but it does not get into the budget, that is, if you consider that several hundred thousand men went abroad and in some way, different way , through the yew tree, through the beads of some kind are driven between borders, between states, between... border busiks through the path of their time , this system was big enough, when people tried to avoid mobilization, went west and did not return, could it be that this idea of ​​economic reservation may not pass exclusively due to the fact that there is a large layer of non-illegal, illegal, illegal ways to avoid mobilization, and that this... this, this big pereg with this big pereg no one wants to share, because if there is

an opportunity for enterprises to reserve their employees, then the question is why should this employee carry $10,000 to some rishali carrier there, who can transport him abroad, if all this will be legalized, well, an analogy can be drawn, for example, with the legalization of prostitution there, when prostitution is illegal. because it is in a sufficiently large amount and in principle everything is fine in ukraine, everyone, everyone feeds on it, the same thing, don’t forget about the war, don’t forget about the war, the war is a determining factor, not an economic one interest, well listen, well, it’s not, mr. volodymyr, it ’s not a secret that there are large companies and large groups of people who are making money from this war, including from smearing those... who should be mobilized, well, tell a specific example, i don't know that big campaigns

were smeared there because of corruption and so on, if the people remained, they definitely do not, let's say, do not engage in illegal smuggling of people across the border, so that these, well, they engage in legal smuggling across the way, this the system also worked allowed, people were engaged in this small companies, this was engaged in, excuse me banal corruptors, as in public... when i spoke about large companies, i did not mean companies from the point of view of structure, but companies of people, large companies that are on it. .. are doing, mr. maksym, do you think this could become an obstacle in the implementation of this mechanism? well, this story is not new, after all, this analogy with the legalization of prostitution, to be honest, it also occurred to me, it occurred to me, but i did not voice it for ethical reasons, in general it is possible

to define as a certain corruption rent or corruption market, as you call it... it exists in most spheres of our life, economic, social and so on, but it is very unfortunate that it has, so to speak, spread to the sphere of homeland protection, i see , we have a consensus, an understanding that in this conversation, that such a market exists and we should not close our eyes to it, but there is a question of what to do with it, i would still... i would suggest approaching this issue from what is called from the head, that is, start with the fact that the cabinet of ministers, the ministry of defense, local the authorities began to fulfill their duties, in particular, they began to forecast and plan which personnel are needed, for which industries, for which areas, that's what

they talked about, doctors, employees of defense enterprises, i don't know, educators, well, everyone. categories that are socially recognized as useful and necessary for the peaceful part of our life, so it is necessary to agree on them, so to speak, and make a decision at the administrative level, which, if this does not happen, then the question is to partially legalize corruption market in this area, it will not solve the issue, of course, when it is possible, so to speak, to enter it. the money is not there to the representative of the tsc, directly to the head of his enterprise so that he bans you, of course, this is a simpler, easier and safer way, but the effects are social, including military, how will it affect mobilization, they will not be

positive , in addition to the fact that certain, so to speak, corruption chains may be broken, but the mobilization of the homeland will ultimately become a matter of, you know, such social consequences, these effects must also be taken into account. thank you, mr. maksym, mr. volodymyr, you wanted to reflect on something, so i was just saying that we should start by eliminating this mess and this manual system. making reservations, that's where the problem is, i said about it that this is the first thing that needs to be done, it's not just a mess here, but i suspect there is a huge corruption there, still i don't agree with what it's about , so that there is a criminal rent of corruption, and the state wants to take this money, i think that there is a banal, let's say, desire to find

agreement, agreement with business, legal, system ukrainian business, i can tell you what. for sure, this is not the initiative of natalukha, whom i mentioned, he is promoting it, by the way, it is not the initiative of the cabinet of ministers, unfortunately, they have other interests, it is the initiative of ukrainian business, it is promoting ukrainian business, which is currently suffering from , that his staff is being taken away and this business is collapsing, and people who are in the shadows, but they are not being mobilized and they are not paying taxes, that's what the problem is, not the desire to intercept some kind of corruption rent, that's me. .. no i agree, zelenskyi, being in germany these days, also talked about mobilization at the meeting with scholz, he said that he answered the question whether ukraine would be able to mobilize a sufficient number of people to liberate the occupied territories, let's listen to what the president of ukraine said, as for

mobilization, i am completely sober on... i am looking at this, because mobilization is going on in our country because of the state of war, because of the state of war, it has been going on since the first day, i see that this issue exists in society, certainly not the first day of the war, but if we want to preserve our state, then we must defend it, the right words that zelensky said, they collide with reality when there is... a conditional conflict that we are currently observing, which is trying to be artificially dispersed, a conflict between society and between the tcc, that is, we see and are witnesses. as in the information field, telegram channels are quite actively dispersing a similar video, where, well, in this case, in odesa tsk,

one of the employees of shvidka was called to the tsk, the employees of the ambulance drove up to the tsk, well , there started a scuffle, a fight, and that video it has already reached all the public, possible and impossible, the russians also support it. is this hysteria and society's reaction to what the tsk is doing, how, mr. maksym, do you think we can return the respect of ukrainians to people in military uniform, because they are representatives of the tsk, they are military, now there is a war, people are attacking them, people start beating them there, people start pumping rights there and, let's say, arrange. pushing , what is the way to localize this conflict between the conventional society and those who work in the tsc

? er, you know, actually, we do we remember that the president correctly said that our mobilization did not start on may 18, but when the new law came into force there, the mobilization began. since the 14th year , there were almost six waves of mobilization there, as far as i was not in the 14th year of mobilization, there was no, okay, only with the introduction of martial law, mobilization began, only on february 24 , 22nd, well, the general mobilization began, well, yes, that's right, yes, the terms are slightly different, yes, yes, colleagues, supposedly all the laws that should establish the rules and... clear demarcation of responsibilities between tsc employees, between internal affairs bodies, the police, in fact, and local

self-government, well, they also assigned certain responsibilities to the heads of enterprises, in fact, who also received their responsibilities in this area. so, if we are looking for a solution that would, so to speak, calm the public passions around this a little. if there is a transparent and clear scheme in this legislation, it should be made known to the society as much as possible, such educational campaigns should be carried out and where it should be clearly stated who is entitled to what a representative of the central committee, which is the right of the police, which is the right of local self-government bodies and labor. start with this, by establishing and clarifying for society, clear rules, a clear scheme. then, of course,

the next step is to strictly follow this scheme, and so to speak, to eliminate any attempt to violate this scheme, and show the punishment of people who, so to speak, go beyond their powers, or properly execute them . and so on, well, this is the only way for a legal state, an illegal state, such as the russian federation can afford the right of the strong and other means, although they also try to act within the limits of their legislation, and the situation that has developed today is definitely a consequence of the russian special operation, i have nothing to do with it. in the fact that this conflict , so to speak, is fueled by various tools and various influences on our

society from the side of russia, because this is the main bet that an internal conflict will begin in us, and we will, so to speak, lose the combat the spirit is actually the most important thing to win, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do our homework, i repeat. an algorithm, a clear scheme that is known to the whole society, strict implementation of the established rules and regulations by all participants in this process, and the situation will stabilize, and of course countermeasures in the information field. thank you, mr. maksym, mr. volodymyr, do the authorities understand that this conflict, which russia is fueling and trying to disperse, that something must be done about it, because in reality, despite everything. but this conflict can deepen further and indeed can lead to internal confrontation, well , then you have to ask the representatives of the authorities,

do they understand or not? it is difficult for me to answer for them about what maxim said, it is important, what he described is an ideal situation, ideal, but what happened in practice, there were supposedly norms, although we did not have a law on mobilization, only the law on martial law, further by- laws, and what happened up until the moment of the adoption of the current law, a person, a person is sent a summons, or there in another way there... it should be mobilized, but the person ignores it, that's just, that scheme that maxim described doesn't work, the person ignores it, the vlk, tsk just doesn't go there, it doesn't become a military registration, but because she went abroad and what to do, but only two years after the start of the full-scale invasion, they finally passed this law, which provides for certain

sanctions. for evasion of mobilization, and it was softened, i am passing on the words of the critics, and there are many of them among the military, in particular and not only that what was proposed were tougher sanctions for evasion of mobilization, now, the question of whether it will work at all has softened, and unfortunately, it is a far-fetched scheme, but i completely agree with it, but it does not work in our society, but we have to move. in this direction, yes, it is simply necessary that there should be clear sanctions, sanctions for violators, and for violations, those who evade mobilization, and those who , unfortunately, let's say this, abuse their powers either in the tsc or in lk, there are also many such examples, i have heard so many that, god forbid, yes, and with this, too, it is necessary to cite well, today, in my opinion, the main problem is in what, in the methods, in the methods

of mobilization, they discredit. why do i support economic booking for companies and not for individuals, because it is, well, at least an attempt to bring some order to some people, so that people specifically know that a person who has received a reservation can work normally, and not be afraid to go out there to the street, what a roundup and or there they were detained at a block post and taken there... you have in the tsk and that's all, and how many violations in this process we too we know therefore, it is necessary to bring a certain order here. unfortunately, now it is the methods, the methods are being discredited, and the methods must be dealt with. me, i don't have a simple recipe on how to do it. by the way, there are, well, some methods, colleagues who are closer to this topic told me that, well, for example,

there is a positive... effect, well, they passed a law, you have to stand up, or let's say this, online you stand up for military service accounting, or you go to the tsc, there, by the way, there are many problems there, but next to the tsc there are and not only next to the ccc, there are other forms and places, there are people who engaged in recruiting for specific military units, i personally know examples when a person, well, probably found out the driver, by the way. that he will probably have to go, they will be mobilized, and he signed up himself, a military unit that he knows, which has a good reputation, he himself went and signed up there, and somewhere, not recently, i saw statistics that yes, one in three mobilized, one is the one who goes himself, as part of this recruitment process, but knows where he is going, and what training will take place, in which military

he will get to a part and so on, but i believe that it is necessary to move in this way, and it is necessary to put things in order with those not quite, to put it mildly, correct methods that are used now for mobilization. thank you, mr. volodymyr, there are also a few topics this week that were and are still being heard, and not only social networks but also politicians are talking about it and reflecting on it, the fact that mustafa nayem is the head. agency for the reconstruction of ukraine wrote a resignation letter on the eve of a major forum on the reconstruction of ukraine in berlin and slammed the door and said about the fact that denys shmehal, the prime minister of ukraine, was putting sticks in the wheels and did not prevent the development of this agency, of course, this was a serious enough blow on the eve of the actual holding of this forum, well...