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they able to use, let's say, the resources of the lukashenko army allied with them, vitaly portnikov and the guests of the project, read everything, accept my song, thank you, it was difficult, i was just interested, but this is absolutely not style, help understand the present and predict the future, offered the united states to include with with us bilateral security of the garden, a project for those who care and think, a political club every sunday in... at 20:00 for espresso. good health once again, as i promised, we will talk about international politics, expert international candidate of political sciences, bohdan ferens is with us, now we will see him, we already see, good. hello, mr. bohdan,

thank you for finding time for us, well, let's start with this philosophy, a well-known phrase: politics is the art of the possible, considering that behind me is boris johnson, the former prime minister, yes, this just that daily mail newspaper where he is described possible peace initiatives and conditions for peace, so if politics is the art of the possible, then maybe, or is the possible complete. the victory of ukraine, i mean, all the borders until 1991, international courts for war criminals, reparations, contributions, and so on and the like, this is possible, such and such an end to the war is possible, should we still look for that , which is really possible, and now boris johnson offers one of the possible options, your assessment, mr. bohdan, well, mr. mykola, you are so on sunday. decided from himself

the easiest question to start with, i think, is that no one has yet given a firm assessment on it, including the president and everyone else about the possibility of what you mentioned there in the near future, so i always, by the way, and at the beginning of a full-scale invasion of he said on many broadcasts that geopolitics, international relations, yes, the political process, which is now fraught with conflict. all this must be perceived very realistically, and in the theory of international relations, by the way, there is such a school of realists, and often in ukraine, by the way, they are very criticized in school of realists, they say, yes, they approach all processes very pragmatically, but the world is like this, big players are guided by their interests, first of all, yes, there are very serious challenges for smaller countries, and what’s more, we have been at war for 10 years, and it has been full-scale for three years. that is, these are very difficult challenges, which

make us also ask ourselves questions, and how this war can really end, and which of our partners will take on this main role in ensuring that this war ends and, for us, it is important in a just peace, so we well, we don't just communicate with our partners that the war there needs to be stopped, we also add to this that there must be... a just end to this war, just so that the aggressor state putin will be punished for these brutal and terrible crimes, but how history shows, just after the aggressor receives a crushing defeat, only then can society change, and something new can be created, i am now talking about the second world war and nazi germany, at the same time, the context is different now, i am again, it is always necessary to use the lessons of history, but... but not

to impose them completely on what, for example, is happening now, because as we see, unfortunately, some poles, centers of influence and powers, such as... china, there are arab countries, some, of latin america, they continue, unfortunately, to cooperate with the russian federation, once again managing their own interests and determining what is happening, we ukrainians are also not guided by other people's interests, we are also guided by our own interests, in terms of justice, you understand, in the old testament is written with an eye for eye, this is absolute justice, for some reason humanity has now decided to give 15 years to a murderer. to some abstract, not to shoot him, but the old testament says that it is an eye for an eye, so imagine the picture when there will be such justice that the attacker attacked and he got everything that we wanted him to get, very difficult. i'll tell you this, i

understand that i'm born to criticize, but i'm a little used to it in many decades of work, i have ideas john. i consider them realistic, maybe i am a subconscious realist, who are criticized in the ukrainian international, as i would say, journalism and the field of political science, but it seems to me that this is one of the options that should be kept in mind, because simply from my point of view, joining nato and the european union is much more important than the territory, we will make up the territory, in 5, through 10 years, in 15. years, well, it is not known when, i think that sooner than in 15 years, but joining nato will ensure the whole, great ukraine, maybe not all of ukraine, but a large part of ukraine, with peace and the opportunity for self-development, which you

will say, mr. bohdan, well, i will say that i am got to know, let's say, in the original also what boris johnson published, i still think that he is... not a realist, exactly, he is more, let's say, also about hypothetical things, about some, let's say, desired things , which are not a fact that can also be realized, because firstly, unfortunately, no one has given us any guarantees yet, and also some overview of the future in the context of the fact that the russian war will really end there and we will immediately be accepted as full members in nato, and... yes, here again i have certain certain ones doubts about this, although logic really gives reason to understand that ukraine is in the north atlantic alliance and, for example, the border along the lines of nato and the russian

federation, this is much more predictable than the so-called gray security zones, in which, by the way, we we were and continue to be in these gray security zones. come on, that's why the opponents, let's say, or critics of ukraine's accession to nato, they always appealed to the fact that there should be a gray security zone between nato and the russian federation, that's exactly what played this evil joke, unfortunately, in the context just a full-scale war, because if this gray security zone did not exist, then in my opinion this european security space would be more predictable, but again this is desirable, and you said. that politics is an art, to apply and use the tools that you have, we all want, for example, yes, for everything to end tomorrow, and the war, and we also went to our borders, and this is fair, indeed, but the question is how to implement it, who

is ready to help us in this not only with words, there, not only in the specific plane of certain financial and military obligations, but also in maximum support, because... well, we see that even with this subcode of the challenge , serious challenges arise, so there will definitely be those that i think the message is, we see, the rhetoric is changing in part before the elections in the united states of america, but this will be a factor directly in the united states in november, which will clearly affect in the future the change of emphasis on possibly certain impulses, which will be more important, which is more important nato or ? rhetoric from your point of view? i think that for now, well , we don't have, again, grounds to compare these very important components of our future ukraine, well, this is my

subjective opinion, if someone had already pragmatically offered us, for example, membership in nato , and not how it is in the wording of the final declarations, in specifics, then... it would be possible to at least ask people, yes, we have a referendum tool, that is, why not apply it, but so far i see no reason to determine it is already very important to put such a burden on the shawl components for our country, well, i understand, you are preparing for the position of ambassador or minister of foreign affairs, your answers are even more careful than the answers of current diplomats, well, this is not a very honest approach, you know, answering every question is not enough information, well, we don't know if, well, it's cool, i understand, but this is such a real policy. 44%

of ukrainian civilians, i.e. not people from the front, but who are in the rear, are in favor of negotiations with the russian federation, this is the latest poll of the oleksandr razumkov center, and 35 are against, how do you can you assess it and can you assess it domestic-ukrainian problems more directly than international ones, i think that... and i assess international ones quite directly, it's just that everyone has their own style, i don't rush into any loud statements, because well that is, yes, i understand the complexity of the processes that are taking place now, but there are no easy solutions, but sometimes we want easy solutions, i think people also in ukraine mostly wanted easy solutions, but this desire, it sometimes leads us to very difficult then the decisions that still need to be made regarding this one social media there is a very interesting distribution in the rear regions, in the southern regions,

more near-front regions, so it is really obvious that people are tired, both from the war, and from the situation, from the state, this fatigue, again, it is different, unequivocally, those people who are constantly under attack every day, let's say, in the front-line regions, they are not fully ready to put up with the loss of their homes, with the loss of relatives, and they have more, let's say, aggravated. position, those who are in the body regions, there is a slightly different sociology, although again in my opinion, you can criticize me now or not, i think that people also do not fully frankly give answers to such complex, sensitive questions that are asked in the context of sociology, this is my subjective opinion, so it is also enough, so to speak, not to the exact, exact growth that exists in ukrainian society, that is, if now... mr. zelenskyy starts probing some possible negotiations, then the majority of the population of ukraine,

well, it may not welcome it, but will tolerate these possible negotiations through intermediaries, direct, well, diplomats will be there to decide, that is, if 404% are almost half and 35, that is, almost a third are against, then... in principle, it will be perceived not negatively, let's say so, well, the rhetoric has also changed, if, i think, you have noticed how i think, also who is following, the rhetoric is also changing in the context of the fact that it is possible that the active phase of the war will somehow be completed by the end of the year, but the question is, again, that before we had a slightly different context, that is, we were not exactly ready to the fact that, for example, the active phase means that... there the other phase can be an element of freezing, yes, and that also did not suit us,

as far as i remember in official statements and in the position at various levels, in particular diplomatic ones, so here, when again we have a dependence on what will be in the usa, first of all, and despite the difficult situation , it appears that trump has the best chance of becoming president, so we are already trying. and this, i think, is also important, not to be somewhere there in abstract categories, but to understand the realities that may be different or different after november month if trump wins, so yes, we need to prepare for different scenarios. thank you very much, bohdan ferens, international expert, candidate of political sciences, was with us, thank you for participating in our program, now we will have france. so, we

will go from ukraine, from ukrainian-american relations, because of mutual dependence, yes, what mr. bohdan just told us about, we will go to radio liberty's special correspondent in france yevgenia rudenko, i hope she will appear before us now , and if, as soon as she came from oh, mrs. evgenia, good health, thank you very much for finding time for us, evgenia. i repeat, radio liberty's special correspondent in france, thank you for taking the time for us, and the first question, so despite the suspicion, macron, a brilliant politician, are you? appeared, am i wrong, because as much as i heard all june, i heard, he made a mistake, he won't be anything, he loses everything he can lose, the lipenians are coming, it's all scattered, a nightmare, we give up, we have to go to moscow , to bow to the kremlin and so on and so on something like that, and now what, you word, everything

is gone, it looks like now, how he likes chess, and, well, now... how exactly two weeks have passed, yes exactly two weeks have passed since the time since the last second tour, and emmanuel macron in the dosaian palace, gabriel tal in matignon, that is, he continues to perform, yes , perform the duties of the prime minister, he is, he is no longer him, but he still performed duties and it is not known how long, that is, until how much how much is needed, and yael brown piv was re-elected as the head of the national assembly from the third round, indeed, they chose for a very long time and into the night, but they still chose. and moreover, they elected what she scored, that is, well, this, she is a representative, yes, of the presidential coalition, and she defeated the representative of the united left from the new people's front andre chasel, she scored literally 13 more votes, but still her was elected the head of the national assembly, and this happened thanks to the unification of the presidential camp with the rights, that is

, they still managed to create such a temporary coalition for choosing a specific post. but succeeded, and this despite the fact that the presidential coalition received less than 15% of the votes in the european elections, 28% in the second round and in general they lost, they lost 80 seats in the parliament after this vote, well in this new parliament, while they succeed to be elected to these positions, and besides, the distribution of commissions is going on at the same time, there are eight of them in the parliament, including the finance commission. economy, then foreign affairs, and they have already managed, for example, to get six out of eight, look at me, mr. yevgeny, you have such a theoretical question, for the future , in fact, when all this was connected with this intrigue with the actual defeat of the macronites in

the elections during the elections to the european parliament, the appointment of early elections and so on and so on, so... one of the ideas that , which i understood, is to give an opportunity to play poker with someone, either the extreme left or the extreme right, show them before the next election, show them, that is , the french, that they are not ignorant, they do not know anything, and in this way people will vote again next time by centrists, well, conventionally, whatever you want to call them, but what is happening now, this intrigue for the 27th year for the presidential elections... is being killed, because the french will sit and think, he is back in power, his government is back, again, his parliament, again not ours, let's finally get together and elect these people from lipenov in the 27th year, well, of course, this is all what you say, that's what they said, but it's all in kularara, yes, but now the government is still up to him, and now the main

question is precisely who will be the prime minister, and if we are already talking about sidelines, and about what is said unofficially. it is not from those sources and they are not officially talking about the fact that just now the head of the national assembly was elected and the presidential coalitions were conditionally given in exchange for the fact that the leftists will take the prime minister's chair, and there is supposedly information again that allegedly agreed that macron agreed that there would be a left-wing prime minister, but would he keep his promise, were there such agreements as to what would happen next, that is, they are fighting for the prime minister's chair, well, from the very beginning... in fact, it was question as soon as it was after the second round, that is, two weeks have passed, and this was the first question right away, who will be the prime minister, and now all these quarrels, practically fights, are going on, by the way, when the head of the national at the end of the national assembly there already in the evening, because they sat there until the night, and already there almost came to fights, but the same thing

actually happens for the chair of the prime minister, they all fight and demand from the left, who allegedly as they... got the most votes, they and it is necessary to introduce the prime minister, and they cannot introduce it at all, they are all fighting among themselves, because again, this is the united left, it is not one party, there are environmentalists, and socialists, and communists, and the extreme left, and they are fighting among themselves, to whom to give, to whom to give a seat, and macron is watching this, and by the way, he says that if you think for so long and present someone, then i will already choose from among my own, that is, these beautiful leftists... i understood you correctly, they cannot find among themselves a person who wants to exchange positions the prime minister, because she understands that it is a huge responsibility if there is a president on... theirs and the head of the parliament is not theirs, well , their hands are very tied, and i would not agree either, although the salaries are not bad, i would, or

maybe i would think about it, even though i don’t speak french, i’m a little different, they are, after all, they fight among themselves, who will get it, they can’t agree among themselves, they all want, but nobody they give, but... these left eyes, this, this variegation, left, do i understand correctly, now you are me tell me the last name of this, this, this, this half-mad, melanchon, yes, there he is, it’s like saying that they are all sane, except for this melanchon, if he wasn’t there, then if they could have done something there to agree whether or not i'm wrong, well, socialists and environmentalists, yes, that's right, environmentalists, because i apologize. french words are coming out of me already, a frenchman, they still agreed, but the extremes, they are the extreme left, they are in fact no better than the extreme right, i’m talking about mélenchon, well, i’m talking about the communists in general

well, well, they say that the communists have become very fragile, very intelligent, they do not call for the taking of the bastille, for the great yellow socialist revolution, they are like that , okay, well, they don’t particularly have a few percent of those vamists there ... and somehow i was not particularly interested in communists, i have, you know, an allergy to them since childhood, okay, eh, we can, do you feel, because these conversations are going on, that a right turn is possible in europe, a right turn is possible there, although who is right-wing when over there in britain it is left-wing turn, but is it felt this, this these right turns, do the waves of these turns reach france, or? france does not care about everything now, they have their own internal, their own internal agenda, they are thinking now only about what is happening in france, and that would be

the end, well, when they form a government, then there will be some other analyzes that, what do you say, well, well, well , french people, i can say that it’s like at work, yes, colleagues, if two weeks ago there was only talk about this, now somehow everyone is gradually less interested, well already two weeks, well, as much as possible. the days to talk about it are vacations, yes, august is just around the corner, so the olympics, again , literally next week will start, so of course they are interested in who will be the prime minister, but so that even the journalists themselves they talk during various live broadcasts, and during various political programs there, that the french have probably never been interested in and never knew as much about the parliament as they know now, how many seats there are, what all the shuffling is there, who there are voices. actually, well, even, it is still, it is the parliament, it is one of the branches of government. the penultimate group of questions, or questions, i have for you before the olympics, thank you for reminding me,

i should also mention this at the end, but will there be strict liberal reforms in france? france is fairly socialist, i would say extremely socialist, and unlike thatcher's britain. or the 90s in germany, which carried out painful but now seems necessary reforms, france is making several attempts, and these mass protests against these attempts do not give an opportunity to advance in rights, to advance socially, not governmental, so that the society understands that it is necessary, so right, but to do nothing, i apologize. do a little and earn a lot, earn a lot, let’s say, work a little and earn a lot, this is what they are used to, and they

like it so much, and maybe in ukraine everyone would go out like that too, alo-alo-alo, we want otaku vacation, we want such a complete social package of this, that, that, and we don't want to go to work from eight to five or six and sit there and not have a break. as in two hours in paris, only spoons, forks and plates in the center, in the center of the city, you only hear this for two hours, please, well, macron tried to carry out the pension reform, and you remember, he even used this famous article of the constitution of france, that he violently actually, that is , without approval, supported and carried out this pension reform, what did it lead to, what did it lead to, to these constant sins, that is... how is this count, tell me, well, when they constantly went out on protests by the french, yes, every, every saturday they went out as if to work, they went to these protests every

saturday. they blocked everything, it was just some kind of horror, that is, they, it, it was one big, one big protest all over france, and this, by the way, is precisely why there is dissatisfaction with macron's policy, this is one of the main reasons, this is that he carried out the reform without the approval of french society, well , yes, the only way to teach is to really give power to the socialists, i.e. the leftists, let them collapse, they will immediately do everything social guarantors.

they were for a long, long, long time, now in france the olympics, now all the people of the world will come there, and even 15 or 20 or 30 russians will come there, how far is the attitude towards russians now not only in view of the olympics, in principle there was once, i remember, there is even moscow, paris somewhere at home , famous exhibitions of fine arts and other arts, and in paris this, and in moscow this, well... that ukrainian t-shirts showed this in paris, well , god be with them, let them play katsap, russians, like now, what now attitude towards russia in general, people have already begun to understand in society, c newspapers, when discussing that we need to be more careful, let's be careful, i will choose, look more closely at moscow, not with such eyes of love, but... a little critical,

please, absolutely, of course, there are no more cultural events, if they are, then it is immediately, first of all, the ukrainians immediately come and actively declare this with various yes posters and so on, and in general very, in general, this was one of the examples, by the way, as it was visible during the campaign this one, which was now on the parliamentary elections, which are all absolutely parties talked about the fact that they will support ukraine, that this is their main, one of the main... such red lines of their programs, is to support ukraine, as this is exactly the question, but support is very important, because everyone absolutely knows , that the absolute, absolute majority of french people support ukraine and ukrainians, and now, by the way, thanks to the fact that they came, many ukrainians came, ukrainians came as, well , not running, as is the temporary status of assistance, the transfer of persons, yes, that is, they work, they study french, that's why

they have a very positive attitude, well, they are really not bad, well, many very young people came to study, by the way, recently i literally saw an article in the french media about the fact that a guy came at the age of 16, did not speak two words there , spoke french, and two years later he graduated from the lyceum , i got a bachelor's degree, well, it's like a gold medal, so i got it in french and now i'm going to study artificial intelligence somewhere in montelier, that is , i tell such positive stories, but to whom the olympics will help politicians, don't do it. did not understand question, who will the olympics help? everyone will say: well done macron, we have the olympics, cheers, or vice versa, who, who, who will the olympics help politically? well, this is for france, they are very proud that they have the olympics, after all, they have such an olympic movement, they are proud that france has become a part, it is such a holiday for them, well, for some it is a holiday, but for the parisians almost everyone was running, yes, they tell me what parisians are like,

the apartment, they are also somehow trying to sign a contract for next year in the winter, because they say that from june the prices will simply be three four times more expensive, in particular for transport, for example, they just doubled the price for the time of the olympics just like that, they raised the price of transport by two times instead of two euros, now the metro is four, well... yes, let's not feel sorry for evgenia rudenko anyway, a special correspondent of radio liberty in france, because life in france, even for 4 € in this, in the metro, is not too bad, after all, living in paris is not so bad, and i am not in paris, i live in lyon, so it's not so bad in lyon either, everything is fine, mrs. evgenia, thank you very much, thank you huge