forecast of events, want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow, watch the saturday politics club every saturday on espresso. greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the second part of the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, throughout. program, which will last 45 minutes, we will talk about the following. the kursk slap to putin, the authority of the kremlin dictator was greatly shaken by the unexpected operation of the armed forces of ukraine, which could actually lead to the collapse of the putin regime. corruption scandals during the war. law enforcement officers report almost every day about exposing officials. on bribes and

illegal enrichment, what other internal challenges are facing the authorities today? spiritual independence from russia. next week , the verkhovna rada is to consider a bill on banning the activities of the russian church in ukraine. will zelenskyi be able to facilitate the adoption? friends, we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms for those. who is currently watching us live there, please subscribe to our pages on these platforms and participate in our poll. today we ask you the following: does the servant of the people party support the banning of the russian orthodox church in ukraine? yes, no, if you are on youtube , vote yes or no, write your comment if you have a different opinion about it. if you're watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote on the relevant numbers 0800 211 381 if so. if not, 0800 211 382. i would like

to introduce the guests of today's studio, this is volodymyr fesenko, political scientist, chairman of the board of the penta center for applied political research, mr. volodymyr, i am you congratulations, thank you for being with us today, good evening, i congratulate you and oleksiy koshel, doctor of historical sciences, political scientist, head of the committee of voters of ukraine, mr. oleksiy, congratulations, thank you for joining the broadcast. good evening. so, gentlemen, let's begin our conversation. from an event that has been commented on for more than 10 days, well almost 10 days by the world media, ukrainian media, and the community in social networks, politicians, and world politicians, this is the kursk breakthrough of the armed forces of ukraine, and what will be the consequence of this of the kurdish breakthrough, zelensky said that that kursk is a disaster for putin, for putin's russia. her, how and what can actually

lead to the collapse of putin’s regime, is it just kurshchina, or is this the first black swan for putin’s regime, mr. oleksiy, please, well, you know, if you analyze individual slogans, enthusiasm, individual headlines of the last week, then i have the impression that i have already seen and read all this somewhere, namely about a year ago, during prigozhin's uprising, which at first was even called a revolution, but actually there were there is reason to talk even about the beginning of revolutionary events, but the same was said about the collapse of the putin regime, about the split of russia, but i see that now a new wave has started, i think that it would be best for us now to be realists, to be strict pragmatists, in order to so that we can not fall into euphoria, but clearly plan the possible consequences. well, let's look objectively,

the results of sociology show that putin's regime is strong enough today, i don't want to overestimate there, but today there is no infiltration of the opposition, the opposition decapitated, and it is unlikely that the new leaders who are now, the leaders of the opposition who are currently abroad, there from a quiet, calm germany, they will be able to influence the political process in russia there, there is certainly no left in... these russian media , independent media, there are no influential leaders of local self-government and many other things, that is , it is premature for me to talk about the fact that we will be able to shake russia, we will be able to lead to opposition to putin, we will be able to lead there to the format of a palace coup, anything otherwise, let's see, there are really no prospects for this, but what you say about the black swan is an element of chance. it exists,

but you have to look honestly, the probability of this remains extremely, extremely low, that is, to sum up, the kurdish operation, or the kurdish special operation, is... an unusually great success of the ukrainian military, which i am convinced will be studied in all military textbooks in decades affairs the military set themselves clear tasks, and we can only guess about them now, even if we guess, we will not talk about it publicly, that is, different scenarios are possible, and these scenarios are very difficult and very unpleasant for russia. but to talk about tectonic suva, there is about forcing putin to negotiate. to the revolutionary events in russia, well, i apologize, it is premature, we are looking pragmatically, thank you, mr. oleksiy, mr. volodymyr, what will be the political consequences for putin, because if inside the russian federation, as mr. oleksiy says, we cannot hope for

a revolution or for a riot or there, for some certain actions against the leader of russia himself, then it is obvious what happens on the course is obvious. this is a loud slap to putin on the world stage, that is, he received a rather serious lesson, and the whole world saw that putin is actually a person who is not able to keep the situation in russia under control, and even more so, is not able to continue this image, the image of the second there the army of the world, which is strong and unyielding. no, well, in fact , no one has particularly talked about the second army of the world for a long time, another thing is that, unfortunately, in the last year and a half of the war, well, somewhere, well, a year for sure, but in the last year of the war, it will be more precisely, among the russian elites, i am not talking

about ordinary russians and even some of the western elites, there was a feeling that putin is invincible again, that the war will be long, yes, he will win it, and if the russian elites wavered in in the 22nd year, there were problems at the beginning of the 23rd year, by the way, i do not agree with the assessment that someone there saw a revolutionary in his beauty, i do not know who there saw a revolutionary in his beauty, he was rather a counter-revolutionary, and he rather, it's like, you know, a character in the style of the civil war, such a sexual commander, who on... he never spoke against putin, so there was no need to fight against one of the leaders, against which revolution at all we were not talking about, even now that the ukrainian authorities are talking about the beginning of a revolution in russia, no, i did not see a single word, at all very careful assessments,

very restrained assessments, even about the fact that our troops, precisely our troops are fighting now in the kursk region, started talking only in the last two days, and so the assessments are very restrained, that's very. the statement about the disaster is correct, but it is more about a local disaster and a catastrophe in the military dimension, it is important for us that there was an effect that putin is not so invincible, one should not bow down to the fact that russia is big, has endless resources, it is impossible to win, non-standard actions are needed, actions are needed that in one way or another can indicate that , that you can... put pressure on russia, you can fight on russian territory, you can add various red lines that were not even drawn by russia itself, but rather red lines that arose in the minds of some western politicians, this is important, and

certainly for us , in this military operation are important political goals, that is the first, the first political effect - what we can lead. military actions on russian territory, it became an absolute surprise for the russians, especially for the residents of the border regions, and certainly, at the very least, it caused an increase in anxiety in russia and uncertainty that it would be possible to win this war, because they had already almost thought everything, a little more let's wait, we will win the war, but now the situation is completely different, so let the tactical temporary effect be achieved. then you have to think about how to translate it in another plane. the second important effect: our partners recognized that we have a full right, publicly and officially recognized that we have a full right to protect our interests, conduct our defense on the enemy's territory.

there was nothing like this before, before, i know, it was from different sources, we were ordered unofficially, informally, not even just asked, ordered. you can't take a single step into russian territory, so when there were incidents in belgorod oblast, they were russian volunteers, but not the ukrainian armed forces. and... now we have proved it, we have it full right to defend oneself, in particular and in this way on russian territory, and our partners have recognized this, but the truth remains the question, now, i think, it is the main one, in order for the current operation in the kursk region to be more effective, in order to , in order to pressure putin into real negotiations, and this will certainly not happen by itself and quickly, we need to use western weapons, long-range weapons against russian ones. the territories need to be removed at least partially from the restrictions that exist, success can only be guaranteed

non-standard actions and actions on russian territory, and the breakthrough to the kursk region proved this, so in this case a lot depends on the further actions of our western partners, and i think that at the moment they are considering what to do next, how to act further, in this sense , caution, unfortunately, still exists, but even povido. that they are assessing the situation and considering the possibility of lifting at least part of the restrictions on the use of their long-range weapons, this is important, so there are political effects, i think it is very important for the ukrainians, after almost where months, when we just retreated, now we see that our troops are not retreating, well, this is, you know, an important impulse of positivity for... society in order to restore faith in our ability, that we will stand in this war,

that we will not lose this war, this is very, very important, because that is why i believe that the political effects of this military operation are even greater at the moment than the military effects, the head of diplomacy of the european union, jose borel, during a conversation with the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, dmytro kuleba. said that the eu is completely supports the struggle of the ukrainian people, and in this way he commented on the events in kurshchyna. borel wrote on the social network x, discussed with dmytro kuleba the latest events on the front line, the kurdish offensive, i confirmed the full support of the european union, the struggle of the ukrainian people. putin failed to break ukraine's resistance to his unjustified invasion, and now he is forced to retreat deep into russian territory. sir and why do our western partners not want to say more

sharply that, in principle, this special operation in kurdistan shows that it is probably necessary put the dots of hope in the russo-ukrainian war, putin must be defeated, and russia must be defeated, because they all support ukraine, but here is a clear articulation of what we see that putin will lose in this particular situation, and putin . must answer for this, well, the western rhetoric of the last week is extremely favorable for us, this is also direct support from borel, from the german foreign ministry, from the spokesmen of the white house and many others. this is an extremely big plus, but not only rhetoric is important to us, but principles are important to us decision. the first solution, which mr. volodymyr spoke about, is the permission to strike with western weapons on the territory of russia. i mean a long-range weapon that can really break, can break the course of a war seriously enough. and

the second, fundamental issue, which was voiced by volodymyr zelenskyi, i believe that this is exactly the kind of rhetoric that should be present in the daily format, it is a direct demand from the west to close the ukrainian sky from the polish air defense, romanian, and slovak air defense there. well, we got it too the answer from washington that this is a decision that must be adopted by consensus by all nato member countries, but again , the situation can be overcome, because a number of countries are direct supporters of ukraine. now regarding the mood in the european union, well of course, let's look only in the language of numbers, here is poland announcing that it will buy 96 apache helicopters, america. for the amount of 10 billion, well, there we are talking about helicopters, we are talking about a whole complex of enterprises for the production

of spare parts, maintenance, logistics, everything another, 10 billion us dollars, this is the price that poland is paying now only once for the supply of russian helicopters, plus they buy a bunch of f-16s, plus they buy a huge amount of weapons there, europe pays a huge price for a possible attack from... russia, europe does not wants this war, european business does not want this war, and that is why even now, in the 11th year of the war, european politicians are dominated by such a... very easy compromise opinion that the war can be resolved in a diplomatic format, you can get guarantees that russia will not attack, or come on, let's wait, it will pass literally a decade and russia will change, that is, physiologically putin cannot be eternal, he is now over 70, in 10-15 years, he will be a person who is unlikely to be able to open

the door on his own, well, obviously, these are the attitudes, these are the attitudes, everyone are afraid engage in a protracted war. thank you, mr. oleksiy. mr. volodymyr, biden commented for the first time on the situation in kurtshchyna and said that it creates a real dilemma for putin. we are in direct, constant contact with ukrainians. that's all i'm going to say about that is, while all of this is in the active phase. what is putin's dilemma now? mr. volodymyr, unfortunately, unfortunately... volodymyr fosenko seems to have left the program, unfortunately, mr. oleksiy, what, what dilemma, what dilemma is biden talking about when he says that putin now has a dilemma, that is, whether to fight or not fight, or some, or is it some other dilemma? well, actually, i would not like us to underestimate

putin, after all, this is a man who has been in power for almost 25 years, as president and ... prime minister, before that he held quite high positions in the russian the fsb, that is, he, i think, perfectly understands tactical steps and strategic steps, and it is quite obvious that he understands that strategically he will lose, and when western politicians are now talking about the fact that ukraine has already won, this is not the case here compliments to ukraine, this is also a somewhat realistic assessment of the situation, because putin is now forced to... observe that irreversible processes are taking place in the russian economy, russian bankers are already talking loudly about this, that the economy is overheated, there are problems, trade with china is under big questions, therefore well, under the big questions, each operation succeeds enough due to serious problems, because chinese banks are vulnerable

to american sanctions, by the way, the issue of sanctions is the whole list. is far from exhaustive, because as before, as weapons are given to us in a dosed manner both in terms of quantity and technical indicators, as permits for the use of weapons are given in a dosed manner, exactly the same applies to sanctions, the measure gives, the measure applies sanctions very carefully and very slowly, and putin perfectly understands that every step, he hits russia hard enough, come on let's see, let's say there's russia... auto industry. 92% of new cars are made by the chinese auto industry on the russian market. russia is losing entire markets, these are serious enough things. well, once again, putin perfectly understands that there are problems with mobilization, which are quite serious. and now they are already exhausting the most important influence, that is, the sums of one-time payments have risen to

extremely large numbers, that is, in moscow, the lift for the mobilized 23 thousand dollars. in the province from 5 to 10 thousand dollars, a few weeks ago the presidential decree in the area of ​​6 00 dollars for the first year services for contract workers, quite serious numbers, and now they are making a decision that people who are under investigation can mobilize, well, get under amnesty, that is, they have already gone in details, in little things, financial levers, other levers have already gone , and putin perfectly understands that... the question of large-scale mobilization is a question, it is a question of time, it is a question, maybe not even six months, in the coming months, how society will perceive it, that is another story, so far he has a good situation with it , because there are no protests, and we do not even see isolated protests by the mothers of the dead today, and again we

see isolated actions in the provinces, that is , the authorities of the vladikavkaz there with... some local public organizations are panicking that the nation is dying, huge the number of losses of young people in the war, well, these are individual actions, that is, everything is more or less calm for him, he received a serious reputational blow, but he understands that in the future, if we look at the perspective of one year plus, then these problems accumulate both in the economy, and depending on their current partners, and in the issue of mobilization. thank you, mr. oleksiy, friends, i would like to remind you that we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live on these platforms, please do not forget to like this video for in order for it to be promoted in youtube trends, and take part in our survey, today we are asking you about whether the servant of the people party will support the banning of the russian orthodox church in ukraine, yes, no, if

are you on youtube, either yes or no, if you want to leave a comment, please write under this video, if you watch us on tv, you can vote with your smartphone or phone, the numbers on the tv screen 0.800 211 381, if you think that the servant of the people party will support... the banning of the russian orthodox church in ukraine and 0800 211 382, ​​if in your opinion the servant of the people party does not support this decision regarding the banning of the russian orthodox church in ukraine, and we are joined by another expert, valery dymov, political scientist, director of the center for public information technologies forum. mr. valery, i congratulate you and thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening, thank you for inviting me. well, we still have oleksiy koshel, doctor of history, still in touch. of sciences, political scientist, head of the committee of voters of ukraine. mr. valery, in the first part of our program, we have already gone through the kursk special operation in terms of consequences,

results, and how it may affect putin and his team. well, accordingly, and what does ukraine gain in this case, how does the world react to this kursk operation, but we we see that next to this kurdish special operation, which is commented on quite actively. already in the ukrainian information space, referring to ukrainian officials, we see that there are quite serious internal challenges for zelensky, in addition to external ones, we see corruption, cases of bribery, we see an investigation into the head of the anti-monopoly committee, pavlo kyrylenko, because the sap announced the suspicion of his illegal enrichment for uah 56 million and declaration. unreliable information, he bought apartments there during the war, cars, well in a word, a fairly large list of what pavlo kirylenko has acquired, the day before

, deputy minister of energy oleksandr hale was arrested for bribery, and he is accused of receiving or receiving 500 thousand dollars, how do you assess the current situation for the zelensk team. in domestic politics, that is, not in external, not external threats, internal threats and the internal front, well, one of them is the biggest corruption front, well, zelensky himself once wanted to reduce corruption to, in fact, to treason, you remember, but this it concerned only his rhetoric and the transfer of the case from nabu and from the specialized anti-corruption prosecutor's office to the sbu controlled by him, to the sbu. also , not everything is in order with us, our partners want the sbu to deal only with security issues, but you see, they do not allow economic crimes, because all these

declarations, all these departments for the protection of national statehood, remember what there are somewhere there are 30 people running around, spending millions in order to prove something that journalists were wrong in those investigations against corrupt officials, not corrupt people, they are going to catch, well, i don't see threats to zelenskyi, so... or rather, as i see it, but they don't see them, because we don't have elections, public pressure under the conditions of the law on there is no legal regime of martial law, well , cash registers don’t go to kuleza, didn’t all these kyrylenkas, they said, all these heads of those deputies of the ministry of economy, didn’t they have to pass some checks there, didn’t those who appointed them know what was going on there, pay attention, for example, in the case of the deputy the minister is actually the head of... the state mine calmly, excuse me, gets a half-half-half-lemon in cash and just gives it to the deputy minister, well, excuse me, by the way, this is the pokrovsky direction, it’s

actually there now, what crazy actions are they doing, this is a normal topic, half a million, the head of the state administration to the deputy minister can feel free to excuse himself, drool, that's what they call this kind of thing, isn't there no skill in the economy, the department of economics, the department of finance, the control of foreign administrations, the fight against corruption, if our viewers don't know, every ministry has a curator of the sbu type, are they the antimonopoly officers who were appointed even before, i'm not saying umerov now, before umirov, wasn't there a criminal case against them as well, don't we have problems with the port plant , didn't we have a problem, in fact, well, in fact, in any department in which there was no problem, all these thousands of officials who should fight corruption, they don't do it, but journalists do, not only that, but then there are journalists, or... how is yuria nikolova trying somewhere out there? to scare him on the streets with his agenda, although in fact the situation with mobilization is completely different than just scaring these people, well, one journalist saw something in the ministry

of defense that he did not see. but all these thousands of people who receive this salary, do you think that people believe in something that no one knows, everyone understands perfectly well, but what to do with the officials who did not really feel any catharsis after the large-scale rejection, they have a successful practice to steal further, they don't have and can't do more, all these attitudes that are with pavlo kyrylenka, this kyryll tymoshenko, do you remember such a face of the year in 22, who was initially removed because he was completely covered in dirt. and then he returned due to the alleged purge, now he manages the entire information policy of the defense forces, not even of the ministry of defense, his entire activity boils down to calling everything the russian pso, something is happening somewhere, if you take the energy industry on the southern ukrainian nuclear power, galushchenko is lying to the whole world, they lie to ukrainians and everyone calls it russian pso, that's all their work, only you say something, it's russian yabtso, i just found something in the magazine that hundreds of thousands of officials didn’t see, well... tens

of thousands of officials, well, he also works in russia, isn’t that what malyar said when the same man nicked 17 eggs in the ministry of defense, well, certain i explained to a certain extent, i saw something that no one in the ministry of defense had seen, by the way, they released the head of the procurement department, they also released another head of the department, only the deputy minister remained, well, but i think that he will also be told that those millions which were in it is in the sofa, he bought it together with the sofa, just as they said that the chairman of the supreme court of princes... kept the money in his safe, it was not his money, it is clear that it is not his money, because there the decision is made collegially , that's why the same prince had to share with many people from this same panel of judges, well, don't the western partners see this, by the way, they ask our donors, our sponsors, those who finance half of our budget, and because of the salaries of officials, even more part of this pension.

them of the funds of the social insurance fund with unemployment there and so on, they asked, don’t appoint an accountant from pischanska to the position of the audit service, the head of the audit of the accounting chamber, i apologize, who should count the money, because all the money that the west gives to our ukrainian budget, no, banks texas should only be robbed by the government of texas, ours said and they appointed, well, your government, the servants of the people, and after the meeting with zelensky , they appointed ms. zelensky, ms.... chanska as the head of the chamber of accounts, and she is still calculating how our money with you is financed through the budget the same kyril tymoshenko, through kanal rada, which buys content from a private structure with our money, well, we won't have enough time, but they are not afraid, because there are no elections, and i will remind our viewers that last year, in the past ukraine bought more premium cars in 2016 than before the large-scale invasion, all these

bmws for 150,000. these are people who are now at zero, they have 7.5 years of not eating, not sleeping, being at zero and not feeding themselves or their families and can buy this, thank you, you, you are right, it just blew my mind that you can talk about it forever, and i just can't understand, as a person who in 2019 went to the nsc olympic and asked petro poroshenko, his competitor, why all your friends are still there. walk with both hands, how is it now, or zelensky in 2019 would ask zelensky of the 24th model why all of zelensky's friends walk with both hands, mr. oleksiy, the concentration of great power, monopower, it implies monoresponsibility, that is, we have that monopoly, as mr. valery said, robs

only. those who cheat on texas, only cheat on texas, in this situation they themselves control, they rob, they themselves probably give up, as with herman glushchenko, this story with this hale, that the minister of energy knew about it, but the minister of energy was probably put recordings, which were recording hal's conversations with his partners, where he said that now the minister will go there to kha maybe he will be fired upon somewhere, please, when mr. valery was listing this big long list, i just thought, this is real the indicator is only half a percent, percent, maybe 2% of the scale of corruption that is taking place, that is, corruption is everywhere, it is extremely large-scale, during the war we spend, but i am not afraid of this word, tens of billions of dollars through corruption

holes. steal on different levels, well