of political science, now we will talk with him about, well, about what is happening around ukraine, not only in ukraine, but also around, first of all. good health, mr. bohdan, thank you for finding time for us. i have two, actually, two groups of questions, one, one group of questions, this is such diplomacy, this is such a lifestyle, when, for example, iran and belarus congratulated ukraine on independence day, that is, we will shoot at you a little bit. to help kill you a little bit, but in fact we will kill you ourselves, that's obvious, yes, well, but when you have a holiday, we will congratulate you, this is so, this is such, such a tradition of international diplomacy, or is it some, some something more like cynicism, some strange, well, cynicism, it can really be explained in principle many things in international relations, in foreign policy, but i believe that this is such... cunning

diplomacy, that is, yes, when, that is, with one hand you really help, unfortunately, to kill the aggressor there, and the aggressor of the russian federation, yes, and with the other hand, you basically , well, let's still stay on the diplomatic wave, you have a holiday, so we congratulate you, but the words really have no meaning, because well... actually, yes, these countries, like iran and belarus, they really continue to cooperate with the russian federation with the aggressor state, although in belarus i i do not rule out that lukashenko hopes that one day the russian-ukrainian war will end there, and he, they say, will again try to unwind something there within the framework of bilateral relations with ukraine, he is already such a cunning fox, so i actually do not rule out that it's also so very... hypocritical, really

but in lukashenka's opinion , a balanced policy is to not burn all bridges, but at least leave something, and he will be able to position it by saying, well, you see, belarus still did not succumb to russia and did not become a part of it, yes, the russian army that is attacking ukraine, well, yes, they helped, well, we continue to do so, yes, they gave us their territory here. but i think that lukashenko is just leaving these tools in order to somehow unwind something within the framework of possible future relations between belarus and ukraine. look, yesterday there was news from paris that pavel durov is the owner of this telegram, and networks, to be honest, i don't understand much about it, because i don't like networks. and i

'm not there, but everyone around me is, so i'm already watching, and it's really important, these are millions of people who have versions of why this russian-frenchman was suddenly detained in france, he has a french passport , he has a russian passport, he created this telegram in his time, it is such a worldwide network, in fact, it is very strong criticize, the europeans are very much so... to put it mildly, it is cautious in ukraine there is a discussion, in russia there are strong suspicions that this is a powerful team and that durov is part of the government, in fact, at least the government can influence him in some way and to achieve some kind of victories, and others in russia also say no-no-no, he is so independent and on the contrary the authorities put pressure on him, but now he was arrested in france, now all of russia is shouting to let him go, and it’s somehow... me

, for example, i am alarmed when official moscow says that this is a good boy it seems that he is a bad boy. and you, what do you think about mr. pavel dura and his arrest? well, first of all, i will say that you are a happy person, mr. mykola, because yes, they use social networks, there is more free time, i tried to unmark you somewhere and did not find it, so i really envy you, look for it and you will not find it, yes i envy the good one, but as for paul. well, while there is no really official statement, they will be announced by the ministry and the ministry of internal affairs, i think france directly, but i think he will be accused of the fact that he really does not want to cooperate, let's say, with the services that are responsible for the fight there against terrorism, the distribution of, for example, pornography, there, in particular, child pornography and other such terrible things that are also ...

distributed through this network, because yes, it instrumentally allows this to be done, so i think that this is precisely the reluctance on the part of bdurov to cooperate in this way. perhaps it served as a reason that they said, well , now we will take other steps in order to, after all, and also be an example for others, who are in charge of these or other social networks or owns that they say it is still necessary to cooperate in order to help or facilitate the work of these or other relevant services that are supposed to control all this, i mean not proliferation. such information as mentioned, therefore, given that he has a french passport, in particular, he also has, i think that he falls under the jurisdiction, well, this is quite a serious statement, maybe there will be such a mr. assange 2.0, who is interested, remembers,

yes, it is perennial, but he flew away, please excuse me, mr. bohdan, he flew just took his plane and... flew to paris, everyone knew and they say that he must have known that there was a warrant, that is, he flew straight to the prison, yes, he drove straight to the prison , knowing that he will come, i will tell you frankly, as they will tell me that they will put me somewhere, i will not fly there under any circumstances, something seems to me that i will be more careful, he just flew in once, we can somehow find here some rational explanation, maybe? sometimes the sharpness of life is not enough, as if everything is in terms of finances, opportunities are already a glory, because especially after the extreme interviews with carlson, well , he really did not manage to become popular for the western media, for the west, so to speak, it was such a fool on the part of a quite intelligent, i

think, a step in terms of promotion actually of its product, which is really gaining, gaining momentum and competing very seriously with such giants as facebook meta, twitter, so actually here, or really personal, there is some kind of neglect or impudence of what can really be enough, there can be quite serious consequences, or in principle he really is i hoped that perhaps the measures taken by the french side would not be so harsh towards him in his life, although this is now again focusing on him, and i do not exclude that this... will be such a rather public, serious story, as i already noted at the time there with assange, although there was a different specifics in part with the release of a large amount of materials there, and another country took a key role in this, i mean the usa, yes, here

we will see, it is too early, but look, sir bohdan, and such a question is more philosophical, philosophical, well, on the one hand, social. it is a worldwide organization that fights so that there is no oppression, no censorship, no influence, no that, but on the other hand, the europeans say, well, there is a free distribution of various information, among this information it is obviously proven, how to say , critically undesirable, there is the same pornography, the same terrorist, but where is the same border, where is it, so that on the one hand the press or the media are free? whether the networks were free, and on the other hand, so that the eye of the state or states, if we are talking about the european union, was somehow somehow, that is, it is possible to get out of this trap, or is it impossible, or do we have to restrain

such and such new technologies that are uncontrolled, and on the other hand, maybe we need to clap our hands, okay, the state does not have. influence, therefore there will be no censorship, cheers, i think that here is really a philosophical question, as you pointed out, because not a single discourse even in the 19th century, even in the 18th century consisted of the philosophy of the eminent, and where does my freedom end or end, yes, where will your freedom, for example, begin, yes, where is this limit, where is this line, so here i think, it is in the process of establishing exactly how, on the one hand, not to really interfere in... the media, in the freedom of the internet after all, i believe that this freedom should be, but on the other hand, big tag campaigns are numerous, which possess our data, information, of a personal nature, and often possess it in a not quite legal way, they can even, so to speak,

monitor our behavior, which we do not know about, and there show us what we want it there, or we don't even want it, but we see therefore... the regulations must work here, the legislation must be improved, and this discussion, it is very serious now, is present not only at the level of the european union, where, in my opinion, it is possible to have more... regulated legislation, there especially regarding the fight against terrorism, i.e. there is legislation at the level of the european union that tries to regulate the issue, and where this or that service has the ability and has restrictions on interference, for example in the media or in personal private life, in the us it is also a debate, especially with zuckerberg, yes, recently, there were very interesting meetings in the congress, very tough on the one hand. but so far i don’t see such consequences, and what’s next, that is, yes, in what way, but it’s okay, there’s just a ukrainian

view of it, and in ukraine, it seems to me, it’s much easier than for europeans, because we have a war, and we well, we don’t, we don’t want telegram, and we, in my opinion, if we see even the slightest danger, we should close and forget, it’s just the end, we have a war, we can’t afford to have networks on our territory, which have russian influence on... themselves, it is more difficult in europe, there is no war, and there will be a cry, and freedom of speech, that’s it, let’s go, and over there, in america, well, somehow it seems to me that it will be easier to reach some kind of compromise in america, because there, as you rightly pointed out, as soon as something happens, he is invited to the congress, the congressmen ask, that is, they have a negotiation process, and they sit across from each other and say, oh, we will close you now, and he says: and let's agree not to close, and then let's do it like this, let me give in here, and you here

give way, somehow they can come to an agreement, this does not happen in europe, but about ukraine, would you vote for, if there was a referendum on closing the media and the network of networks that are under the influence of the russian federation, they said, let 's go. .. vote, how would you behave? well, if such referendums were organized, for example, if we absorbed the experience of switzerland, where literally a lot of issues are decided precisely through a referendum, then maybe i would really express my opinion precisely on this matter, but really war is definitely a very serious factor that affects all life, but on the other hand, we want to preserve democracy, we want to preserve freedom of the media, freedom of speech, so that we, for example , you and i today can talk freely about various topics , and these are all these issues, they are very sensitive, and especially after the war, we

will need to partially restore many processes, including political processes, because political, party and opinion pluralism is key for the european union, and here over this is worth working on, but as for really social networks, big companies, well, they keep their servers neither in the usa nor practically in the eu member states, they try... to keep most of their servers in such neutral territories, or maybe even such offshore ones territories where it is safer, where they can, let's say, not be pressed, let's say this, the relevant services, if they need it, the last question, his saint paparimsky criticized the ban of the russian orthodox church in ukraine, well, let's call it that, not a ban, but such pressure. on the russian side, why did he suddenly say such a thing, he just wants to keep

good relations with moscow, or does he believe that it is a church, not an intelligence center, it's just that many ukrainians suspected that it is not a spiritual center, but a center developments, and here the pope of rome again said something like your opinion on this matter, literally a minute with us, and repeatedly commented in my opinion on... through his prism of coordinates, he sees the context of the russian-ukrainian war. he is from latin america, for one thing, so he can see the world is not quite, let's say, unipolar in some places, as someone sees it, or pro-western, or there, about chinese or pro-russian, it is somewhere in the center, let 's say, because, again, it is from latin america, they know their historical context and the influence of big countries, this is the first, and the second, he still, perhaps, not as a politician, but as a clergyman really tries to explain these or other issues, perhaps without delving too much into the context,

so here actually, most likely, it is such, on the one hand there is a personal position, but with on the other hand, the corresponding structures in the vatican, external departments are preparing this or that position for him, and in the opinion, for example, probably that of the pope, it is quite balanced. thank you very much, thank you very much, bohdan ferens, expert, international candidate of political sciences, was with us, thank you very much. thank you for finding time for us, we are definitely not getting off the events in moscow, and we invite oleksandr shulga, the head of the institute of conflict studies and analysis of russia, to the conversation. to whom to turn, if not to mr. shulga, and alas, good health, mr. oleksandr, thank you for finding time for us, let's not get off the topic of that durov pavel, so the name of this part of our program is called our houses, that is, when we looked at

the reaction in russia to the arrest in paris, mr. durov, about whom i said just now, that some said... no, he is a democrat, others said, yes , he is an fsb member, well, he is friends with putin, and others said, no, he is against putin, well, but when there was a hysteria due to the arrest of durov under the name of our byuts, somehow they immediately and us everyone was told that this is our man, comrade durov is our man, and why is it so important to them, why do they protect him so much, why did such a thing happen there, because there were rumors, as far as they are concerned, you can believe that in fact this is ... a suspicious flight from baku to paris, putin was in baku recently and talks started that maybe they met there and somehow agreed on something, in such rumors, you can believe or you can not believe, or whether, in short, your point of view, mr. oleksandr, i

didn't rely on rumors yet, i'm talking more about what we're talking about can we really... talk about this and the main part of your question, why our people are being beaten and why it is ours, it really seems to me that this is a top topic in russia, in everyone, in opposition channels, in pro-government channels, in children's blogger channels, and each of them has its own reason, and the reason is that in russia it is actually the only means of mass media. communication, as well as information remains with everyone, with all the metamorphoses of the system in 25 years, only telegram really remains, and it is used by both z-bloggers and propagandists, and official commentators, kremlin commentators, as well as

the opposition itself, liberal-democratic, so to speak. as well as for confrontations between financial and industrial groups, i.e. telegram is for russia, unlike ukraine, it is the only such, well, in fact , an irreplaceable source of mass information and, most importantly, communication, we, well, for example, our military, look, our military they do not use telegram, if someone used telegram, i would get a lot of money if they found out, everyone uses signal or other messengers, in russia ztbloggers howl because the military there really use telegram, the opposition liberals are democratic, because this way they can communicate at least somehow with the russians, financial and industrial groups can arrange clashes with each other, make showers, that is why everyone needs a telegram, that is, in other

words, mr. oleksandr, we need root for not lawyers. mr. durov, for the prosecutors near mr. durov, to imprison him, this will be a serious enough blow to telegram in russia, that's all we need, am i right? well, here's the question, firstly, telegram representatives claim that they were preparing for this, and for some time it will function without durov, and secondly, what is the dignity of the fact that under pressure, a simple fool will give the encryption keys, but not to a french one, for example, according to the prosecutor's office, they won't actually torture him there, for example, he will hand him over to the fsb, if he hasn't already done so, and he'll say that, well, that's it, now, now i'll hand him over, that is, there can actually be a lot of options here, actually, that is, that's what

telegram is, everyone needs it, we saw it, everyone spoke. for the fact that it is unacceptable that telegram ceases to exist, all absolutely parties in russia, but how will this actually be decided, we will see with you to a very large extent on monday, when there will be a special appeal from the prosecutor's office, and we we'll see what specific, well, not just any rumors , news clippings, but specifically what specific accusations and what could threaten the fool, well , i understand that the french do not care about the war in ukraine... they don't care much, eh they don't care about russian circumstances either pornography, and terrorist calls, well , in short, this is what... they say, well, we can't react to them, it lives its own life there, and we ask mr. durov, let's talk about it, let him talk about it does not want, and it continues to exist there, and

child pornography, well, not adult pornography, but child pornography and terrorism, and what should we do now, the european authorities say that we, we cannot do anything, we must somehow influence it, and here they are, if this is the basis, as i understand it, for this arrest, then in principle, and this can... channelize, bypassing child pornography, terrorism, in short, are there any ways in your opinion for the networks to exist, and for socially problematic topics not to appear in these networks, is this possible, do you think, well , there are also reasons why the french prosecutor’s office became interested, well, they might... in fact, be offended, the french probably were offended, because zhdurov received french citizenship under a special procedure, and it is given to people

who contribute to the increase, expansion of the influence of france in the world, that is, he somehow there he received this citizenship through a simplified special procedure, but he continued, we all saw his interview, we heard, he continued to pretend to be a man of the world. which does not want to be bound by any obligations, and accordingly he lives sometimes in the arab emirates, sometimes he travels to other countries, and so that not only the russian but also all other governments do not touch him, well, as the french prosecutor's office shows, this does not happen, and here he actually is reaps these fruits. since you are , after all, a specialist in conflict studies in russia, i cannot but ask you about the next one. we still let's say this for the audience, we have the next guest, and through the next guest, we will investigate this story, but i have a question for you, as a russian conflict expert,

look, we see that the uprising in the zones happens from time to time, we see that conscripts are going to join the army in the kursk region, we see that there are no russian troops in the kurdish direction in general, in short there are such... many such microcrises, but these cracks, they are not, it is not that i took the cup, this is me there 's a cup here, gasp, it's broken, no, it's like that it's enough, if i keep slapping this cup somewhere, it will begin to crack, such a little, as the situation in russia is now, i don't want to add, so as not to overload the audience, there are even bigger problems in the economy, finances, finances, in trade with... china is even more of a problem, in short, these problems, these cracks are coming, and there are such russian optimists, among good

russians, who say that by the new year it may completely flake off, and what do you think, we can already see these cracks, or something else, as i once said, how comrade medvichuk once taught us, power is as strong as ever, it is a good thing by the way. question, since we are right here with you, i have just prepared an article, it should come out on monday, it is dedicated to this very issue, if i translate it very briefly, it is actually all these problematic crisis trends that have arisen, which we er recorded in our studies, which were conducted by the institute of conflict analysis of russia in this country, and in general, economists, what they constantly talked about, their analysis, it all went on... it was predictable, the kurdish operation, which zelensky so mysteriously called a military-political, military-diplomatic operation, and hinting at the fact that we have

everything, we still don't know everything, in fact it accelerated all these events, first of all it is a ghost, a ghost of mobilization, at least partial, at least on the border, and accordingly even more pressure on... the labor market and on the expectations of the russians themselves, whether to go or not, those who can. i would call these points of crystallization, which will continue to build up, this dissatisfaction, and they will be objectified. i think we are with you during the fall, you can remember this tweet, we will see non-political manifestations of dissatisfaction, the seeds of which we see in these first forums. the border, these are just such comments, further on we will see more and more scaling, and different forms, audio, audiovisual, simply written in

the comments. and by the end of the year it will scale up to these points of crystallization, but further, we will see further at the beginning of the new year, but hey, you named these cracks, we can, we will see the growth of these cracks until the end year, mr. oleksandr, and this, you see, we ukrainians understand very well what ukrainian discontent is, we simply have a lot of experience with various ukrainian discontents, we do not have... one understanding of what russian discontent is, it is grumbling in the kitchen and slandering local authorities, well , at least i see this kind of dissatisfaction now, i told the audience that i spend a lot of time, much more than in ukraine, on russia, listening to what they say, reading what they write and so on, and so on further, and they say that it is coming today to belgorod region, ukraine attacks kursk region. and

it’s not even the governor’s fault, but the mayor’s fault, the mayor’s a bastard, the regional council doesn’t work well, the mayor doesn’t give a damn, my god, don’t dare say anything about the governor, but about putin, we’ll be silent and criticize everyone around here, then we’ll even we don't even mention moscow, it's also discontent, you can live with such discontent for 100 years under a crazy dictatorship, and the dictatorship won't... won't disappear, that's right, right, my prediction is that during this autumn we will see scaling up, actually this fuse boyars, local boyars, federal at the level of the boyars, it will already cease, it will wear out more and more, and there will already be specific grievances addressed to putin himself, because in

the system where the alpha and the omega... putin, where, in fact, there is no other political sub object, yes, but there is putin, putin, putin, putin, and all the relevant responsibility for what happens in the country rests on him, respectively, on his image, what kind of father of the nation, who knows what to do, he has this plan, the plan, no matter what, they believe that in he has a plan, there is this reorganization from near kharkiv from... near kyiv, from near kherson, now in kurshchyna, look, i want one more question, maybe the last one, mr. shulga, excuse me, but when did you start answering the previous one question, i had before me such an image of the february revolution of the last 17th year of the last century, when in fact there was no crisis, there were such micro-crises, and then in leningrad due to snow for two... days no

bread was brought, and everything cracked, and the same story, then everything was focused on the king, but now putin is the tsar, do you see any analogies here, well, there are no analogies in history, but something like this, some kind of similarity, er, i repeat, all this should lead to the fact that from the father of the nation, he should turn into, well, no let's be these beautiful... words of the usurper and so on, but just a tired grandfather who does not know what he is doing, that is, the desacralization of power, but in the fall we will see the beginning of this process, unfortunately, not its end, but the beginning. yes, but i wouldn't be against mr. putin ending up as nicholas ii, and i think so for some reason, that nicholas ii deserved such an end less than mr. putin. thank you very much,

oleksandr shulga. the head of the institute of conflictology and analysis of russia was in touch with us, we thank him for joining us on sunday, now we will have the next story, we will go to the commercial for 5 minutes, after 5 minutes we will be on the commercial to continue talking about this fool and this telegram, because everyone from all sides tells me that it is very important, because it is communications, it is... and it is one of the links of the great war between russia and ukraine, and it is already now we will talk a little, first about the ukrainian perspective on all this, and then we will move to paris and we will definitely talk with alla lazareva, who often advises us on french affairs, all this will be after advertising, first people's deputy mykola knyazhynskyi, then alla lazareva from paris, advertising.