my greetings to you, mr. volodymyr, we are recording this interview before independence day, this year ukraine is celebrating its 33rd anniversary, and literally a year before independence , the kyiv international institute of social sciences began work. which you lead, and you actually had the opportunity to watch public opinion change in real time. i just want to discuss and analyze with you today how the self-identification of ukrainians has changed from the first years of independence to the current period, to a country at war. let's start, probably, with what were such views on the beginning of the 90s, when everything was going to the collapse of the soviet union. how did you rate then? i

know that the first study conducted by the commission was devoted to the referendum on the independence of ukraine. please tell us more about it. we owe much of our appearance to radio liberty. our first research was for the american sociologist melvin cohn, who was the president of the american sociological association, but we could not have done it if it were not for the cooperation with the rf research institute. and actually research the institute established the standards of sociological research that existed in ukraine, he, they trained us in this, we already had a sociological group of the sociological association of ukraine. until 1991, there was not a single representative study for ukraine in general, they were only local, in kyiv and other cities. and this was the first study. and no one knew whether it, how

it would look, whether we would manage in the regions in the crimea, we interviewed 200 people, that is , this is such a standard study that we do all the time now, and what did you ask about that the poll, which was the question, the question was whether it was exactly as it was in the referendum that was planned, and when we printed the first result. then it was predicted that 88% would vote for independence, then no one believed in this 88% on your radio, when it turned out that 90%, then everyone was simply impressed, and all this gave the opportunity to receive further orders, and showed that we were all right we do, and so on. the fact that the ukrainians voted in the referendum for the independence of ukraine, what is it? means, in particular with

from a sociological point of view, this is how the circumstances happened, or was it also some kind of manifestation of self-identification of ukrainians, because the ussr for years educated the soviet person, in fact, erasing any identity, it also meant that the elements, and well, in many ways, the identification was preserved, many people wanted to speak their native language, there were. what problems, and this also meant the hope that things would be easier, because the actual problems were that the soviet union had already stagnated for many years, and it was clear that, compared to the west, it could not withstand any more eh... a competition with him, how many percent

of people who chose independence of ukraine did so in view of the fact that they would be separated from the common past with russia, can we appreciate it today? in all regions , the majority wanted secession, and even in crimea, the majority also voted for independence, as for identification then ... in the 90s, approximately 42% said, well, they believed that they were primarily citizens of ukraine, this is the formulation of the question that was in the monitoring of our colleagues from the institute of sociology of the national academy of sciences of ukraine, and we conducted it in several waves of this monitoring, who do you consider yourself to be first of all, and the respondent was asked to choose one of the options, there were residents of a village, district or city, residents of the region,

a citizen of ukraine, a representative of their nation, and so on, there were various options , and citizens of ukraine were then 42%, and... about a third chose city dwellers, kyivans, for example, there and so on, and this number increased, and in the last study it is 81%, this is just the main identification, the last study was in 2024 and... among those items there was something about the soviet past, about identifying oneself as soviet citizens of the former soviet union, at first it was about 15%, and now it also remains at 1%, people who are elderly,

first of all, who are also considered as putin , that this is a catastrophe, the biggest catastrophe of the 20th century, the collapse of the soviet union, uh, well, 15 percent is a lot, not a lot, after all, but then there were such conditions, well, that is , the soviet legacy probably added to the pressure on people, these were soviet mostly people, and even though they voted, partly because they hoped for some economic problems, partly because they hoped for a european path and it was clear that it was not clear how to do it in the soviet way. part of the union due to the fact that everyone was very fed up with the communist party and all these problems, although kravchuk, who was the secretary for ideology of the communist party of ukraine, was elected president despite this. it is interesting that we

conducted a study this year, we asked how you would vote if there were another presidential election, now 86% would have chosen chornovol and only 3% of kravchuk, that is, there is simply a colossal difference, a change in orientations and an understanding that the choice of a representative of the communist party was not the best choice for ukraine, but, but this is already in view of the lived experience and those all years of independence. of course, those whom you interviewed are just curious, in fact, how old they are, how much they can estimate what would be the best choice for the state, we always interview a sample that is representative of the population, that is, there are all people in the same

the proportions they are in the population as a whole, and it is clear that these are other people, some people are no longer alive, those who lived under the soviets. times, when we consider the dynamics, we should also remember that territorial changes took place in our country in fact, although crimea and donbas are ukraine, but we cannot conduct research there, and therefore part of these changes are due to the change of territory, part due to changes in people's consciousness, and here we are. well, several times we conducted an analysis, from our data, deleted crimea and donbas and watched how what has changed, approximately 1/3 of these changes are due to the territory, and 2/3 due to consciousness, well, of course, age changes and this

is also what influenced, which influenced the consciousness of people, one of such factors is generational changes , changes in age categories, that is , more and more people who were born in ukraine, and even if they were not born, but could have been born there in the soviet union, but at the age of five, at the age of 10, they began to live in independent ukraine, and for them this is a state it's just natural, they don't understand how it can be otherwise, then some... people are just for it this time i moved to moscow, it is the center of the empire, it is better to make a career there, and even after ukraine became an independent part of people went there, the work

of the state has a very significant effect on it, the school, that is, state policy contributed to the fact that people identified themselves upriyala. er, you know, er, what did not contribute, and there was a struggle between, pro-russian and pro-european parties and sentiments, then to... very significantly, this is the negative influence of russia, and it had an influence both through financing and creating pro-russian forces here, as well as through simply direct aggressive actions, starting with tuzla, then actually the war and the seizure of crimea in 2014, well, a very strong influence in 22... and the gas games that were observed every year in, even yanukovych

also had some problems, and by the way, the attitude towards russia also depended on this, because in principle, we had such unrequited love for russia, 90%. people were treated positively, and in the western regions too, this was up to and including the 13th year, to be more precise, somewhere before the 11th , we had such a situation before the seizure of crimea unrequited love, because it was very different for them in russia, but during the georgian war, only 30% of russians had a positive attitude towards ukraine. due to the fact that some of the country's politicians supported georgia, and there were 30 there,

we had 90, it's just like that, well, that is, this narrative about a brotherly people worked like that, by the way, we were constantly asking russian sociologists what this had to do with it is clear why, for the entire time of observation, we had a project with the levada center, we asked questions in parallel in the same wording, we... attached to russia and russians, they are attached to ukraine and ukrainians. and what is connected with the fact that they have always treated ukraine much worse than we have treated russia, and they said that from the very beginning of 1991 , the russians perceived ukrainians as somewhat traitors, which is a big country. and that the ukrainians are practically the same russians,

and they took and separated in ukraine , no one had these complexes of a great power, there were no such claims, and therefore they continued to treat former fellow citizens positively without anything, but further m was simply a purposeful campaign... propaganda, russia systematically destroyed ukraine in the eyes of its fellow citizens, and let's say yevhen kiselyov, he said that the main principle of the story about ukraine in russia was like that of the deceased, but on the contrary, that is, or nothing , is it bad that nothing good is said about ukraine, and as a result, uh... there is such a difference in attitude, you say that by the 14th year, 90 or

80% of ukrainians had great love for russia, yes, they had a positive attitude towards it, at least towards russia as a whole, and towards russians there was 95%, a positive attitude, well , many ukrainians had relatives in russia, the research we conducted, well, recently with... 40% said that they have relatives in russia, and another 15 said that they have relatives, but do not consider them close, that is , every second ukrainian actually has relatives in russia, this means, by the way, although russia is five times larger, that 15-20% of russians have relatives in ukraine and... despite this , many of them supported the start

of the war. after 2014, what percentage of ukrainians and how he treated russia, the russians, after the 14th year, uh, the attitude towards russia deteriorated catastrophically, and from 80% it dropped to 30%. unrequited love continued all the same, but after the minsk agreements and after hostilities were stopped directly, it became... began to recover and actually before the war already in the 21st year, about 40% there 39 40% did not have a positive attitude towards russia the main such idea may be why people had a

positive attitude towards russia, it is because of their attitude towards russians and they believed that russians are... too victims of their regime, that they are against it, but putin seized power and that they can do it, but after the full-scale invasion, only 3% became positive towards the russians, finally people realized that the russians also supported the war, there was a great disappointment in their positions and although they said there that under the conditions that exist in russia, you cannot express your opinion, say whether you are for it or against it, there is an article against it, and so on, 3%, and to russia, and to russia 2%, that is

, it simply fell, well, in addition, part of the people in ukraine, according to special the experiments we conducted do not want to take part in the research, and according to our estimate, about 6% of those who had a positive attitude towards russia now do not take part, refuse to take part in the survey, why do you understand, most likely because they understand that now they... can express their opinion in these conditions of war, and most likely these are the people who have not changed their opinion about russia. but can we now admit that there are those in ukraine who expect russia and ukraine to become friends? and we, we have a question that we ask regularly, starting there in 1991 or whatever year,

about the attitude that should be in relations with... russia, and there are three positions: one, that ukraine and russia have to unite into one state, secondly, that they should be independent, but without visas, without customs, yes, there are special conditions here, and thirdly, we should have relations with both an independent state, so according to these indicators, we had at least the majority until recent years. .. special relations with russia, we consider the sum of two indicators that they should be independent, as a relationship to independence of ukraine, and we see that the attitude towards independence has its own dynamics, it improved every year, and

the majority of the population wanted special relations, you say that... the attitude towards independence changed, that is , people voted for independence, everything at the same time, they treated it ambiguously, i understand correctly, the majority voted for independence, some voted for independence, 90%, 10%, at first they were immediately against it, then disappointment began, and the number of people who supported independence, it... fell, this one the number began to fall due to the fact that big problems began, that is , there was no boom, on the contrary, the poverty level increased, the death rate, by the way , increased, that is, there were many problems, and by the beginning of the 2000s, support was falling and

it fell to about 55% and then the economic growth began, and then the support began to grow, and it constantly increased, increased, the russian invasion of georgia also increased, those who are in favor of independence, the example of georgia turned out to be such that it stimulated some people to support independence, and after the 14th year. after the annexation of crimea, 90%, and everything else, then this 90% did not change, a full-scale invasion of it is not not in... 90%, who supported independence, continue to support it. here , it is interesting in this context, how ukrainians treated the independence holiday,

because it is also an important indicator of the identification of oneself as ukrainians, probably we were once surprised there, well, a little because in independent ukraine, there is support for independence day. there was, let's say, in the 13th year before crimea and everything else, the day of independence, 12%, it was one of the least favorite holidays, already in the 16th year it was 20%, but the radical changes occurred of course in the 23rd year, when 63% of people indicated it as one of the most important holidays, and in the 24th. .. 64 and this is one of the indicators that ukrainians began to appreciate independence, when there is a threat of loss,

they more clearly realized what this means, ukrainians perceive the war as existential, we asked how they thought what the goal of the russians was, and the first two is the physical... destruction of most of the ukrainians, and the second is their transformation into russians, i.e. destruction independence, and ukrainians got used to freedom, democracy, they realized that the ukrainian state is not as bad as they thought before that, because they were very critical, even in the 21st year, of the general assessment of the activity. the state was negative and all prospects were negative, and so on, after that the situation worsened a lot, and the ratings, paradoxically

, increased, that is, all ratings, including the attitude to independence, increased significantly, and this became one of the main holidays. ethnic identification has also changed significantly, according to the census... for the 9th year in our country there were 22% of russians, and according to the 2001 census, 17%. some of the people who grew up in mixed families called themselves ukrainians more often, but this process simply accelerated very much, in the 24th year it was only 2%. plus minus here is an error of more than 1%, so from one to 3% of ethnic russians in ukraine now, those

who identify themselves as such, that is, these are very big changes, well, in part, as i already said, this is due to the fact that that we do not investigate crimea and part of donbass, but only partially, for the most part, maybe 2/3, this is... connected just with identification, now the problem of ethnic differentiation has actually disappeared, i.e. there are almost no russians left, and are you investigating their views, those who remained? interesting about views, it turns out that it is actually due to military actions. due to the war started by the russians, regional differentiation and ethnic differentiation have disappeared in us, previously

in almost all indicators, attitudes towards nato, geopolitical, voting, i.e. in everything, the difference was very large, but now, well, whatever indicators you take , they are very small, for example, self-identification, the west 86% consider themselves primarily ukrainians, and the center 84, the south 86, the east - 81, the difference is a few percent, the same when we talk about language and about the ethnic group, among russian-speaking ukrainians, also 81 % identify themselves primarily as citizens. ukrainians and even russian-speaking russians, this is 78%, a difference of several percentages. speaking of self-identification, how

important. in this context there is speech, have you done research on this issue, what is the percentage of those who spoke ukrainian, russian, other languages, maybe they spoke one language, another was their native language, please tell me, now the attitude towards the language has changed significantly, earlier in our surveys, approximately 70% said, even there in the 90s, that... native language, but when a person talks about his native language, he said that his native language is the language his parents spoke, the question about what language he spoke for the most part, about half spoke russian, we introduced in the 90s years such a question in order to find out more precisely what

language ... a person speaks, and it is standard in our country, and it is now, the interviewer must say: good afternoon and good evening, so that it is not clear whether he is saying it in russian or in ukrainian, continue to listen, and in the language in which they answer, ask if it is more convenient for you to speak in ukrainian, or do you prefer to speak in russian, and then, if the person says that it does not matter, then it is she, then you need to ask what language she speaks. . speaks more often, that is , you can already determine from the first word of greeting some assessment yes, well, we try to do this and ask to choose a language, but to choose in such a way as not to influence him, so that he does not know what language he wants to speak, the interviewer, and then 55% chose the russian language, and then the situation changed and then it's in the 90s? 90s,

and the first such change in attitude, it was a year before the revolution of dignity, somewhere 40-45% said that they used the ukrainian language, the same number spoke russian, and another 10-15% were those who spoke both equally languages, although it must be said that partly or partly after in the 14th year, the fact that more people... speak ukrainian is again connected with the fact that many russian speakers remained in crimea and in the occupied part of donbas. in 2024 , approximately 60-65% will speak ukrainian, 15-20% will speak russian, and 20-25 will speak both languages, that is, the changes occurred mainly due to the fact that people did not give up

the russian language, but that they started to speak it more. to speak ukrainian, but more radical changes occurred not so much in the use of the language, but inserted into the language, because the ukrainian language has become prestigious, the russian language has not, and it has become, one might say, more legitimate, the practice of their use has increased, and there is some more pressure. pressure on the use of the ukrainian language, and people do not want to speak russian, that is, the very situation of the attitude to the language has changed more radically than the use of the language, we have the result not so much of state policy now, but of russia's actions, because the results of state policy that did not sufficiently shape civil concept

of a ukrainian, we had in the 14th year in donbas and crimea just about donbass and crimea, until the 14th year you conducted research there and could evaluate the public. even after some time after the 14th year, we had a group there , we could still do it in the 15th, 16th, it just didn't make sense to conduct a survey there according to many indicators. in crimea. do you mean in the occupied parts of donetsk region and luhansk region? well, in crimea we stopped conducting surveys almost immediately, in donbas we continued to conduct them for several years. one of the most famous surveys, we conducted in april 2014, and asked how many people would like their region to leave ukraine and join.