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are they able to use, say, the resources of the lukashenka army allied with them there. vitaly portnikov and the guests of the project: read all the salting, accept my song, i thank you, it was difficult, but i was just interested, but it was absolutely not, help to understand the present and predict the future, offered the united states to conclude a bilateral agreement with us security, project for those who care and think, political club every sunday at 20:00 at... presso. direct ether, saturday politclub. we are coming back. vitaly portnikov is in touch with us. and we continue to discuss the main events of the current week, the most important and most relevant for us. country and the world,

one more topic, if we are talking about putin, if we are talking about such an international aspect, including the fact that putin went to mongolia, it was officially announced, the russian and mongolian mass media also announced it, well but mongolia, she is actually a member of the... international criminal or not a member of the international criminal court, but ratified the rome statute, and this means that de facto, if you follow international law, she should detain putin, since a warrant was issued for him by the same international criminal court, but putin gathered there, and we see that mongolia is allegedly not going to arrest putin, including their officials, and here

indeed putin is once again trying to create a certain international political a precedent, a precedent of violation of international law and a precedent that putin absolutely does not care about the same international law, about recognized conventions, about decisions of international courts, etc. mr. vitaly, this voyage, this action... it really pushes putin, in fact, to such thoughts, yes, that putin wants to demonstrate his indifference and in fact the impotence of international law in this way, yes, as far as i understand , well, you know, even in the first days after the arrest warrant for vladimir putin was issued and the authorized ... rights

of the people of the russian federation maria lviv and pilova, many people said that putin was incredibly scared, that now he will be isolated, that he will not be able to go anywhere, and where he will be arrested and where he will not be arrested, and for me it was such childish talk, so that from a political point of view, of course , this warrant is important, but you just have to be aware of putin's psychology, the main thing for putin is to destroy international law, and he is looking for reasons to... to destroy international law and show that he is above international law, and here is such an excuse in the form of this arrest warrant, he really gave him the opportunity to do that, because you remember in moscow they were incredibly unhappy when, say, yugoslavia at the time extradited their former dictator, slobodan milosevic, to the hague tribunal, and that and then, that is, when radi vankarajit radkomladich were issued, eventually found by the law enforcement system. this

was all serious, i would say, such a blow to the image of russia, regarding the sovereignty of the country, which it will support, but ... russia itself, it of course it has to show that she is above the court, this is an absolutely obvious thing, and putin began to look for opportunities, i would say, to spit in the face of the judges of the international criminal court, literally from the first weeks after receiving this order. remember, he wanted to go to the brics summit in 2023 in south africa, he blackmailed south african president cyril ramaphosa. but there was also the moment when his predecessor, as president of par, jacob zuma, invited him to pretoria for the african union summit the then president of sudan, al-bashar, who was also warranted, and albashar

came, but the pretoria court demanded his arrest, and he was literally fleeing the republic of south africa with the help of jacob zum, but it was also very ... important for the president of sudan to come to the country that ratified the rome statute, simply this visit did not take place as he expected, he was forced to interrupt everything ahead of time. putin spoke with romofosa, as ramofosa himself reported literally every day. then ramophosa went on an unprecedented absolutely a step when a court in the republic of south africa released a transcript of his interrogation about putin's possible invitation, where. phosa said that putin even threatened him with military action if the south african republic would arrest him if he came. and when this transcript was made public, in this way ramophosa showed putin that he does not have control over the legal system of the south african

republic. and so i can invite you, but if the court decides to arrest you, then of course i won't be able to do anything. that's a lot dangerous moment and putin decided not to go there and stuck to the proposal previously made by cyril ramofosa, that he would send sergei lavrov to johannesburg. and then, of course, when there were summits in brazil, different ones, in india, putin no longer tried to go there, because he realized that, say, the president of brazil, lulu dasiliva, or the prime minister of india , narend ramodi, they do not control own judicial system. this is a problem, the problem is not just to come to an agreement with... the head of some state, it is the problem that this head may be powerless before the courts, do you remember, andrei, that in brazil lula dalva himself was in prison, that is, the judicial system after he left the office of president was able to imprison him himself, then

acquit him, that is, there is an independent court brozy, well, it's dangerous, of course, so a country was needed that would ratify the roman... statute and at the same time control the court and preferably not a country of the post-soviet space, as we understand it. and mongolia was found. why mongolia now? in mongolia right now such a historical moment, when in power in mongolia, the mongolian people's party, the heir of the mongolian people's revolutionary party, well, at first, the mongolian people's party, the same party that was essentially created by the russian bolsheviks to create such, i would say fictitious independence of mongolia from . china in the 20s of the last century, and this pro-soviet party ruled mongolia until 1900, it seems there in the 93rd year, this is the famous party of khorlagine choibalsan, yumjagin, tsedembale, and the current president of mongolia, ukhnaagin khorelsukh, who invited putin to ulaanbaatar, he comes from

this party, he headed its youth organization, even in the late communist times, i would say, and he is a person who, in other words, perfectly understands weight. russia in mongolia's political and economic life, and besides , ulan baterbater is maneuvering between moscow and beijing, and it is absolutely obvious that neither russia nor china would benefit from any detention of putin. and it is obvious that in a situation where the president of mongolia is from the mongolian people's party, the prime minister, the parliamentary majority, then there is control over the judicial system, putin can be sure that nothing will threaten him in mongolia, he needs. to go there from that point of view, he chose such, i would say, an unexpected reason for the trip, it is the 85th anniversary, i think, of the battle of kahlingol, and it is also an absolutely incredible story, because two armies were actually supposed to fight there, the armies of the state manchegou-go, which

was created by the japanese in occupied chinese territory, and the army of the mongolian people's republic, which was created largely by the russians, in the occupied chinese territories. because from the point of view of international law, the territory of the mongolian people's republic, well, before the recognition of mongolia by the majority of the countries of the world, it was considered the territory of china, before recognition by china itself , he said. practically the only state at the time of the battle of halkingol that recognized the independence of mongolia was the soviet union. and the tuvinsk people's republic, i apologize, which later completely disappeared from the political map of the world, annexed by stalin. and the only country that recognized the independence of manche was japan. and that is why it was a soviet-japanese war army and that's why at the congress of the cpsu after this one. during the war, georgy zhukov gave a speech in cambrai, and not at all some mongolian

military leader, by the way, it was this battle that began the military career of the future marshal zhukov. but what does this mean that putin still needs to support this myth, because it was one of the most popular myths before 1941, stalinist myths, hulkingol, spain, finland, these are all such myths of war, these are all stories behind yaks. awarded to the heroes of the soviet union, by the way, zhukov received the first star the hero of the soviet union for hulkingold, paradoxically as it will sound today, it is precisely for khalkingol, and this is also such an illustration of soviet history that putin really needs, so i remembered now these four stars of zhukov, the first for hulkingol, the next two for world war ii, and the fourth for the hungarian uprising. for his destruction, here's the whole marshal rukov, such a story, when a person who

fights with hitler receives the first star in the war of puppet armies, and the last one for the destruction of the freedom of the people who rose up against soviet tyranny, well, it seems to me very speech, so that's why putin is still going, because he can humiliate the international criminal court, he can, as you and i understand very well, also... show the power of this soviet myth, and he can set a precedent, because if he will come and go back to moscow, then everyone will say, well , mongolia invited putin, so what happened, and nothing happened, what did this international criminal court of mongolia did, did nothing, and could not do anything, you understand, in this the whole story is a precedent and after perhaps other countries that signed the rome statute have ratified. he will be able to calmly invite putin and not only putin, this is an incredible story, to be honest, and we

understand that international law in these conditions works precisely when, if you like, when you yourself want to adhere to it, this is the essence of international law, therefore the world divided between the world of democracy and dictatorships, between the world of countries that support democracy, between the world of countries that support dictatorship, mongolia is a democratic country, absolutely, country. in which the government has repeatedly changed, a country in which there have been popular uprisings, a country in which people have fought for their right to fair elections, but its authorities are supported by russia and china, two dictatorial regimes, one imagines that it is possible to be a conditionally democratic country and cooperate with dictatorships, so you are a great example, and this is how the world is divided, such conditions are created for a war of candles, and putin is one of the active, i would say, players who provokes this war of candles... and who creates completely new rules of behavior, that is, you can completely disrespect

international law, you can sign documents and have nothing to do with them, but russia ratified a major agreement with ukraine, which recognized our territorial integrity together with crimea, and donbas and all other regions, and what, then took take back all your words, that it was not her and not with her, so that the authorities in kyiv changed, now it is possible to speak ukrainian. to annex territories to itself, well, here is the whole essence of the russian approach to law, and it wants to broadcast this approach to other peoples. yet there is one topic, mr. vitaly, that i would like to discuss with you, a topic that had a great, high resonance, including among ukrainian society, but this topic also absolutely has an international context. popular topic telegram pavel durov, the founder and

de facto head of the telegram social network , was detained in france, he spent several days under arrest, but has now been released on bail of 5 million euros, in fact, various types of investigative actions, judicial actions, including , the fool is accused of a whole series of violations of french. odavastva, as far as i understand, there is also a violation of the legislation of the european union. well, we are talking about, if so in the general context, that telegram is a closed social network that does not share. actually the data that needs to be shared with the states, which actually supports certain terrorist movements, in particular through the prism of not disclosing information, not blocking some channels and so on and so forth, there are a lot of accusations, starting from the distribution of drugs, ending again

because telegram is actually social a network that supports those elements, those... objects that are prohibited in france, well, but less so, we understand that this also imposes a context on our state, because in ukraine telegram is extremely common, it imposes a context on the russian-ukrainian war, because both russians and ukrainians use telegram, well, it imposes its context on the world of information in general. security, because a lot of people spoke about it, starting from elon musk, who began to defend durov, ending, by the way, with the state duma of the russian federation and russian propagandists, russian citizens who also went out of their way to protect the telegram social network. mr.

vitaly, this is the context of what... what is happening, why is this question being raised now, why is russia protecting durov so much, and what further actions do you expect in relation to the citizen, as russia, yes, as far as i understand the united arab emirates and france, mr. duro? well, look. i think all of this is again part of this great war that is global because you mentioned this story great, and you know there's a story now with musk, related to the fact that twitter, the former twitter network x, is now blocked in brazil, and before twitter in brazil these are, i would say the claims that the west has to

telegram, which we have to telegram, this is not a mass distribution of disinformation. absolutely, i would say, planned and completely unregulated, which has a very strong effect on brazilian society, because in brazil twitter itself is the main network for obtaining information, as in ukraine, now the main network for obtaining information is telegram, in brazil , you can imagine every tenth brazilian is a twitter user, twitter is not so popular here, the former twitter, i mean, telegram is popular here, but the essence of both networks is one after buying masks. the second after it was created by the durov brothers, it is exactly the same, it is the uncontrollability of information dissemination and its anonymity, it is the fact that information is distributed by people who are not responsible for its origin. at the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned maryana bezogula, who published information about the death an f-16 plane, right? mariana bezogola is a living

person, a member of the verkhovna rada, and you can trust her. claims, it can eventually be sued, however, for publishing some information, you can argue with it, as was done, for example, by the former commander of the air force of ukraine, mykola likshchuk, and the former press secretary of the air force, yuriy ignatov, to answer her in a strict way. now remember, andriy, how many anonymous telegram channels there are in ukraine, which are engaged in exactly... such distribution information, which is very difficult to answer, because they are nobody, they don’t have any name, and even if people are there, i mean journalists, there is some owner of the telegram channel on duty, some drain tank, then this person says that he has nothing to do with this telegram channel, she sold it 100 years ago, she does not know at all who takes care of them, and all this

is in the telegram, and there is a lot of resonant information, and a huge number of our compatriots with you... who reads these anonymous channels, quite often she does not even know whether they are really close to the ukrainian authorities, after all, to the russian one, and because you know that a huge number of channels have been created that pretend to be ukrainian channels, but are channels of russian propaganda origin, and durov, like musk, are indifferent to this, that this is freedom of speech, i want to convince you that it has nothing to do with any freedom of speech, if there is an anonymous telegram channel. the author of which is not responsible for the distribution of fiction information, it means that you can become the object of propaganda provocation, the whole society. and not only you and me, if people start to trust such information, they will certainly lose everything in their life that they can lose. traditional

journalism, as you know, also works with sources that it does not name, but each of us, when publishing certain high-profile information, knows exactly who it comes from, he checks this information more than once and twice, and it is known for sure , that the information has not been verified by several independents there are no sources, information... but this is our work with you, a huge number of consumers of information, that is, ordinary people, they simply cannot realize this, and just like before , post-soviet society is a very infantile society, very uneducated, very uncritical , and earlier, as people said there that they would not lie in newspapers, now an incredible formula has appeared, i will say that the formula of blatant idiocy, i... read it on the internet, and when i ask a person, where on the internet, which means on the internet, after all, it is on the internet, from politics to pornography is on the internet, where did you

read this, this is something you told me that tomorrow everything will explode, destroy, perish, where did you get this, dear reader, or viewer or listener, what is my answer, i usually get an answer when i i ask this question, and what should i remember, i read somewhere. that is, this complete lack of information hygiene, it is used this way, you know, there are media of different political views, relatively speaking, some we may like, some we may not like. someone likes cnn, someone likes fox news, someone likes ukrainian truth, someone likes censu. however, all these media, one way or another, they defend their brand, they try. to verify the information, they somehow protect the information that they provide, and we can say for sure that here we read this information, here we read this

information, here we are, you and i are living people, when we release some information, then we understand , how will we confirm the fact that we made public, and what is anonymous, please tell me , anonymous, who can sit somewhere in yasinevo and a sincere ukrainian will run the telegram channel. in which to tell how ukraine will disappear from the political map of the world in 3 months, how zelensky is collecting money to escape on a bog and so on and so on, or anonymously sitting somewhere in kyiv and telling the same thing, but about poroshenko, because knows that his employers will like it, and in fact in this way helps the russian special services to strengthen the credibility of their slander against zelensky. because i believe that any anonymous work, even if the people doing that anonymous work are sitting right there somewhere in the area of ​​the bank, this is work for the russian special services, and the security service of ukraine should deal with these people, because

the very creation of an anonymous information background is work for the special services of the russian federation, this is work that sooner or later will end with the disappearance of ukraine from the political map of the world, and no army, no ukraine will save ukraine in such a situation, because it will have a completely demoralized and demotivated society, and i absolutely... they firmly state that these people are working for this, i don't know for russian money or for ukrainians, as you know, money does not smell, but i know exactly what they do, they may not understand it, they may just be idiots, such idiots in our country have a wagon and a small carriage, but one way or another, yes, yes - yes, eh, but one way or another, this is a very dangerous moment, and this moment is not accidental, when durov created telegram, he knew what he was doing, and you remember that we... vkontakte, she was exactly like that , haven't you forgotten yet? yes, of course, i don't remember why, we are, we all are, all of us at some point accounts, yes, we were already used to it then,

anonymous accounts, remember, you could register, just write that you are elon musk, and print alain delon's photo on elon musk's profile, and no one stopped you, no one tried . to remove this fake profile, from these fake profiles it was then and by the way and now it is obvious, we simply do not use the vkontakte network there, any unforgiving propaganda, telegram is actually a modernized vkontakte social network, and nothing else, we just have vkontakte was banned, the russian special services caught us from another entrance, so to speak, and that's it. if we are talking about the context of ukraine, we need to think about what to do in ukraine with social networks in general, and this

is not only about, by the way, telegram, but also about many other social networks, in particular the tiktok social network, which actually belongs to the chinese, and which is currently undergoing this transitional process in the united states of america due to a possible ban, yes, it also brings a lot of negativity to our country, there is a huge the number of fakes, by the way, the same as in the telegram, what we are talking about... legal aspects, back in march of the current year 2024, our lawmakers, in particular , the bill presented by people's deputy mykola knyazhytskyi, there was a bill that concerned own regulation of telegram and social networks, so now, as far as i understand, this is what

the brazilians want to do with the former twitter, as far as. i understand, mr. vitaly, now the profile committee of humanitarian and information policy is going to finalize by the end of september also a complex document, as far as i understand, on the basis of this draft law i mentioned above, in general regarding the regulation by the state of ukraine of social networks, in particular telegram. we have other problems. in fact, we in ukraine are watching how a russian product is promoted even on legal platforms, musical, film, cultural, informational, you can call it differently, for the same money that goes to the russian state budget every day, and we also need, i'm sorry, do something about it, because actually, well, ours too

people, part of the people... who don't quite understand or understand, it's up to them , the use of such social networks, such programs, actually pay money to the russian federation, that is, the issue is very complex both with telegram and with tiktok, with various kinds platforms and so on and the like, this is a long-term conversation, but the question is for you, your personal opinion, what we need to do with all this from telegram. to regulate, to ban some part of the information, or to demand the disclosure of the ultimate owners of the channels, your opinion, mr. vitaly, i believe that the regulation of social networks is not only a ukrainian task, it is a global task, there cannot be journalism with an open face and, next to it, a media space with a closed face, do you understand? there are

internets, there is darknet, there everyone understands that these are different rules of the game, here everything happens in the same space. social media owners, by the way, that's what facebook does, right? they must learn to work with verified information. unverified information cannot be found anywhere. the owner of the information channel information space should be responsible for their actions. well, certainly not in a situation where it is any. dictatorship, when you just secretly make public some high-profile information, but that's a different story, we're talking about a civilized world, a world where there is a judiciary. here we are, if we publish some unreliable information, right now on this tv channel, we will slander someone , you and i can be sued, if our colleagues who are engaged in the investigation got hold of something incredible, you

know it very well and... on any other channels, the first thing they'll do is they'll meet with lawyers to properly file this information to defend against a possible lawsuit against specific people, against specific organizations, and there's a boz next to us, which anything, anything can talk about anyone, and there will be no responsibility for this, it cannot be, because this is the end of civilization, you know, not only ukraine, it means that it will always win... liar, freedom of speech is not freedom to lie, i i say this all the time, i say absolutely bbc standards are wrong, when you give two positions, one of which is true and the other is a lie, you can give two different interpretations of the same fact, but you can't force a person to debate with that person, who simply points it out.