but my thesis is this, my hope is this, i hope that the war will give, and has already given, a great almost to ukrainian culture, to the dynamics of ukrainian culture, because the war is to close the crisis and put the situation on the edge, but the feeling is completely different, the emotions are sharper, we see something else that those who live in peace do not see, and you know, i am giving a simple historical example here, it may sound banal, but still, sometimes big things sound banal, we understand that we will say big greek culture was born from the greco-persian wars, it would not be greco-persian warriors, there was not this surge, almost all the great greeks that we know, or were, took part directly in this war, and were born before this war, the very feeling that a small nation could transfer to the forehead, to withstand the great , a great empire.

you know, and to defeat it, it was a huge elation, that is, i hope, this is my hope, that in the next decades ukrainian culture will go up, go up a lot, break out, but i think, now it has only signs of it, russian culture is no longer developing, she frozen, she lives by her old, old, old, let’s say, there old achievements of the 19th century, and i think that i don’t see any, you know, great dynamics in russian culture now, but ukrainian culture can... for the time being, i hope, at least yes. today a lot of people say that in ukraine now we, we, we, we somehow evaluate what happened in the last decades, maybe even centuries, as a certain post-colonial, anti-colonial discourse, how well it is applied and fits into the ukrainian soil, because to a certain extent, it seems to me, these lands were culturally more developed than the metropolis often, well, you have already answered your question, it does not fit. because i always say,

you know, i remind you, when i answer, i refer to a simple case of my beloved work winipukh, remember, he went to collect honey, and he also understood at the end that they would collect honey, because this honey makes the wrong bees, i.e. the russian empire was a wrong empire and it had the wrong colonies, applies to ukraine, the baltics and the caucasus, because these colonies were the core itself is more developed, we don’t have this somewhere else, because the case is that the metropolis is more... developed, and the colonies are less developed, well, here it’s the opposite, and this means a very simple thing, that russia was big, but the empire was backward, it really needed educated elites to build this empire, and where did it recruit elites from, where was this reservoir, and of course, in western ukraine, balttia, ukraine, the caucasus, and here we have such a situation, because in fact ukrainians must confess , just like the baltics, just like the baltic germans, that's right, the caucasus, the georgians, built this empire for a while because they thought it was their empire, they were wrong.

they were wrong, because nothing good came out of this experiment, and that's why a lot of them, let's say, among the ukrainians, chose another option, the operation of this empire, and the result is such a strange, strange scenario that ukrainians were strongly represented as among the authorities, yes, among the opposition, you see, there was a strong division, i have only one case to cite, approximately, it is the jews in in the soviet union, soviet jews were so strongly represented in power and there was also a strong representation of proposals, but this shows, as it were, the drama and complexity of our history. and that's why, again, i 'm not going to, i don't think it's necessary to completely abandon the colonial heritage, because a lot of this chiv that we know now are actors who passed through these borderlands, from this borderland and made their contribution, yes, but we have to accept this reality, because we still have to give the colonial legacy, yes, because the colonial heritage means very one thing, our provincialization, our inferiority, our inferiority, well, this is what, for example, is in the same stories of the little russian ughyls, that is, this component, it is, it is now at times. and there is not, because

you know, it is very important, if you read russian authors, russian authors do not like hegol, critics sometimes even hate him, because i think that he is a cursed maloros, because there is one feature in gogol that few people pay attention to attention, although if you look closely at it, it's so obvious that you know why it wasn't before have seen, pay attention, all the heroes are ukrainian gogol, these heroes are attractive, they are blood and milk, they are cossacks, these are my girls, you understand, it’s all the same, well... you know, how they are good children, but they are all alive , you know, they all burn energy, on the other hand, when you look at russian heroes, then khlistakov, then chichikov, then nos, then chenel, they are somehow not real, you know, they are some kind of pale-skinned people, who are called koterburgs, like all the rest, and the russians believed that gogol had specially depicted it that way, because everything is essentially gogol's ukraine is much more attractive, it is warm, you know, it is beautiful, compared to that cold, with cold, with cold st. petersburg, you know, looking at how many people who

are actually not of ukrainian origin, but have influenced, influence, will, for sure, to influence ukrainian culture, history, with that part of ukrainian culture, i understand that this project is ukrainian or ukrainian culture, it is extremely private. was primarily for those who came from this empire from the east, i have a bridge graduate student, who now went to war from the first days of navi, a terribly cute child, although tall, you know, he is all in a tattoo with a long beard, this is maksym osachuk, i love him very much, he is alone with the crimea, and he tells me that he is very, you know, he was at vaidar at first and he told an important thing, he understood that ukrainians were on the maidan, and he went to the maidan. he came to the maidan, he saw, he saw so much warmth, so much solidarity that it was impossible to resist, he says, it was the ukrainians who made me, i think it is very important that it is actually a lot of people do ukrainians, because there is something in ukrainianness, a terrible, you know, attractiveness, attractiveness is actually a feeling of free will, you may

sometimes know such anarchy, but this feeling of free will, you know, is very strong, and it terribly attracts foreigners, if you know so well, proscripts of many ukrainian figures, in fact. origin, you know, petro mohyla, is there a kapnist, you know, the very surnames are for them, franko, who was franko and his relatives until now, i was, i was actually in his native village in naguyevychy, and in naguyevychy further on there are franks, not franks, the franks, yes, the franks, you know that, and franko could be both a german and a pole at the same time, and there was even talk that he might be a jew, but this is a borderline borderline situation, shivelyov, in the end, yes, absolutely, i will tell you, you know, lipinsky, it was whispering foreigners, who from a certain time, or foreigners, or assimilated people, who from a certain time were so fascinated by the ukrainian situation, ukrainian identity, not even that identity, but the content of ukrainian identity, that they became ukrainians, stood in solidarity with the ukrainian ukrainians, with their requirements, i can

say this, you know, maybe you don't know this, i know exactly who in my family was the first ukrainian, i remember establishing it, and it was my great-grandfather, he chose the same way, so that we are all ukrainians without a choice, we just don't remember it. maybe someone was lucky, because we were born a long time ago, we were the third, second, third generation, fourth, who have already made ukraine, ukrainian, but i know that this is happening en masse, what we are seeing now, starting from the 14th year, and even more so in the 22nd year, is there a risk that every time adding such new ukrainians, because i am also some kind of addition, probably a ukrainian, i was born in siberia, and for example, well, although i am at least half definitely a ukrainian there, ethnically, but does it make sense now, but even for those who joined, relatively speaking, to this project are ukrainian. in the 90s, it may seem to them that today's ukrainians, who yesterday were russian-speaking, walked, listened to russian rap and so on, and today speak with mistakes, there is such an attitude towards them, they say, try harder, you bring something to us russian you are dissolving this, this, this, this

concentrate of ukrainian, should we be afraid of this, i don’t know, we must, we must be careful, let’s say so, because i believe, my point of view, that in the public sphere , the ukrainian language... has dominate, in private, we tell ourselves what we want at home, even in chinese, this, we cannot influence it, but for various reasons the ukrainian language must be the public language, the language of public space, which is called, you know, the language of television and the language , i don't know if newspapers still exist or not, well at least social networks and that, all the others, it's normal, it's normal, especially since the russian language is losing this status, i like to repeat it all the time, this is a sociological study that shows this to the world. that last year the russian language lost its status as one of the ten largest languages ​​in the world, do you know which languages ​​yielded to portuguese, and they also yielded among the languages ​​most often chosen by foreigners, the credit goes to putin,

you know, he degraded this language, because again that's what my friend komuzalya says, you know, sometimes socialists can say that obvious things that are not obvious to us, he says that there is a problem with the russian language. because it is somehow complicated, something else, and because in the russian language there is no country in the world that would be a russian-speaking democracy at the same time, this is not the fault of the language, but the fault of the culture that functions in this language, you english-speaking people have a democracy, you have a german-speaking, spanish-speaking democracy, it is very important, you know, you can even have a chinese-speaking democracy, if we talk about taiwan, we do not have any russian-speaking, russian-speaking democracy, that is, it has, if you speak: freedom and the dignity of a single individual person, that is, this is very important, i believe that the choice of the ukrainian language is also the choice of the dignity itself, well, not the dignity, the content, it is very important, you know, it is, so far we do not have russian language as a carrier of the same

idea of ​​freedom, as it is in the ukrainian case, whether this will happen and how it will happen depends on the war, on the situation. again, i'm speaking here purely subjectively, you already know, because i have no sociological basis, although i think maybe someone did it, but what i observe that... the number of people who switch to ukrainian russian speak from what is being done at the front, if the ukrainian front wins, the number of ukrainian speakers also increases, if we do not have progress on the ukrainian front, we have this reversal, because there is that group of people , which will oscillate, will oscillate on march 2, what will be done in this country, in particular, to do it during the war, we have a tendency, a clear tendency to... the issue of ukrainian-speaking, the issue, first of all, or this trend can not return back, completely

maybe, because everything is possible for history, and secondly, will we create the appropriate we, i say we, because i think this is our task, those people who work in the mass media, in history, write books, music , all the others are like that, do we institutionalize it, you know, because when there may be no turning back, something, when it rests on the institution is submissive, it is very important, and here i actually think... that the institutions decide everything, whether it will have the right institutions, good institutions, but again, this is a question that i cannot answer now, because it is not a question of words, of our actions, eh, institutions are more people, or laws, or i don’t know, but at least, at least at least the square of the institution itself, you know, works in a catholic university, it’s an institution, uh, how good is a catholic university, because it has a certain quality, you know, a certain quality, people have a certain comfort, they have connections with the outside world and despite the fact that... it is completely ukrainian-speaking, because it shows that it is possible to be successful, to be ukrainian-speaking, in the soviet union it was done everything to be

ukrainian-speaking, to be unsuccessful, because the symbol of success was that, the russian language, now we know it is a symbol of success, it is the english language, it is me, so it is very important, i know it, i say it, and i said it a long time ago, i am glad that zelensky made it a law, that in fact us should be the norm of english language learning. not taking exams, if i am not mistaken, for officials, officials of the highest level, but it is very important, it is not the language itself that is important, but what content it carries, which symbol does not carry, so attractive is it, so much it gives certain, well, you understand, a way out , exit, exit, exit, world, one thing is clear, that such a language as ukrainian or czech or polish by itself does not give access to the world, it is too small, russian gave it, ukrainian will soon be one of the ten largest languages ​​in the world, but it is very important that... so that we can to go out into the world through russian, not through russian, but through the english language, and

also obviously with the appropriate content, but this is another matter, that is, this, this is what i consider the task of the institution, because what does the institution mean, such provision must be provided, let's say , education schools, starting it is possible from kindergarten, where it will be possible for children to achieve, let’s say there is a b2 level, these are simple things, that is, i believe that all our conversations, well... strength and with a certain expenditure of intelligence, are translated into the construction of certain institutions that we ourselves can understand what they should be, how to construct them. is there persistence, i don’t know, some traditions, values ​​that prevent us from modernizing, how in principle it is possible, i don’t know, to raise another generation, if there are, for example, parents who remain sufficiently post-soviet, for example, in my opinion, i don’t know,

in my teenage years, relatively speaking, the 70s and 80s were not bad years, they were bad economic years, but they were years when ukraine was opening up, where there were certain feelings , you know that the union is collapsing, there is a kind of polish solidarity on the side, you know, and films, and music and all the rest, it somehow gave us a certain, certain optimism, and we are still, we are social optimists in our country, for many people, let's say from the east of ukraine, it is obvious russian culture was the only one, now the events of russian culture are happening near them, this... is a tragedy, but it is very important, and i say again, from the point of view of sociology, history, it is very

important to work with those children who have adolescence, who values ​​are actually being formed, relatively speaking, these are the children of senior, senior classes, plus students of junior faculties of the junior years of the university or other higher educational institutions, that is what is very important that they will feel at this time, what they will feel, of course, it is not only institutional , let's say what will be done on... what will be the weather, you know, will there be peace or war, what will be the economic situation, but this is what needs the most attention, as a historian says here, who, let's say, believes that the generation is one of the key. categories of history, on par with, say, nations or with classes, religious groups, generations are also the group, perhaps the most important group, which shapes the future. we now have a generation that, among which there are teenagers who, for example, smoke cars, cars of the armed forces of ukraine, they are in the majority or the minority, they salt or not, it is very important,

the question is very important, of course, there will be, excuse me, and there will be criminals in this generation, and rapists, that's normal, we understand what the schedule is. very important, the question of who sets the tone for that generation, who articulates the voice of this generation, who is the loudest in this generation, you know, the most attractive, very important, well, relatively speaking, again without offense, i think that it can be for your generation such a person is desirable, i suppose, who is listened to the most, it is very important to me who is the one who is listened to the most they listen, uh, or the most, let's say admire them, it's very important, this is very important, this is the key, there must be such structures where this is formed, where salt production, so to speak, this is, because they will determine that.. generation. ukraine, er, is it doomed to be democratic, european? no one is doomed, but i will say this, there is no determinism. actually, this is the attractiveness of history, that there is no determinism. but i always think in categories, let's say, you know how to make bets. so, if i bet on

democracy of ukraine of the europeans, then for me it is conditionally eight to two. we can do that. and these rates are increasing. i... didn't say it, let's say in 1991, it was 5/5, 50 for 50, let's say it like this, i see how these components that move us europeanness and and and and democracy are growing, again, a lot depends from the war, we understand it, in particular in which in which in which, in which borders, within which limits we will end this war, er, in this, conditionally speaking, in such a triad of priorities, people, an independent state and territories. how would you prioritize it, is it worth it place? i'm afraid of what to say here, first of all, i can point my finger at the sky, i'm sure i'll do it quickly, because you know, prophesying during war, it's funny, but uh, the only thing i understand is that you have to , what is our hierarchy, what

should we have, i believe that our hierarchy is to preserve the ukrainian nation as such, as it is and... to leave the european union. not because europe is beautiful, in itself, is not beautiful, but because entering europe means finally getting out of the colonial state. from the colonial state, where there is a colony of the great the space on which the metropolis lays its paw, not that which lays its paw, i say that this is its center, in fact, moscow considers that kyiv is their center, and also very important that it is a colony, a center, a colony that is geopolitically very vulnerable, because there are wars, constant wars. for me , the european union is a way to solve a key security problem, because, let's not talk about europe, we understand that modern europe is a construction where a war between two neighboring states is impossible, ugh, that's very it is important, that is, i am talking about this, you know, what is key for me is to enter europe, the maximum possible territory, with

minimal losses, i do not know how to do it, because the answer to this question... is not available in the country, you know, today many of my acquaintances, already older people, for example, various professors there, they worry about the issue in the kitchens, relatively speaking, these are conversations in the kitchens faster, it is about the fact that the best people of this war often die in this war, this is not true , it's not true, you know why, because it's already hard to understand who the best, the worst, every kill, every, every loss in the war is the best, the most expensive, let's say that, and secondly, i judge everything by myself, because... what do we know about those about those deaths that cost us the most are impressive, but agree, there are people who cannot be replaced within a generation, it is impossible, no, it is impossible, but in the end we will understand that both the first war and the second war simply knocked out a whole generation of ukrainians, you know, these geniuses of ours who did not happen, but what i want to say, i have an empirical observation, all my graduate students

went to war from the first days, i know a lot of public figures, politicians, historians, our... fortunately, they are all alive, i am not saying that there are no losses among them, but i see that there are not those who die the best, even massive, we don’t have that yet, thank god we don’t have it, they are, they are, they, they do, they are an asset, they are active, so i think, you know, this is a strong exaggeration that, what dies, dies best, all representatives die, this is a tragedy, is there a chance that this war will give birth to the opposite, well, i remember the deceased vasylenko, who is the author of the actual declaration about... state sovereignty, who said that in 1990, 1989, to a certain extent, ukraine could not show a better result, also because we did not have a formed national elite, as for example, there was such a strict negative selection, for example, in universities, where six departments simply made sure that a person could not, for example, defend himself, agree, but

look, again, this issue is difficult and controversial, because i i remember again, you know, i , i, i've lived a longer life, uh, when a movement was created in ukraine, a movement took off in lviv, most of the leaders of the movement and the activists of the movement came from the natural sciences, well, there was not where there was control where it was possible. but smaller, but smaller, because talents were still counted there, they were physicists, mathematicians, chemists, very important, not historians, there were not so many historians, there were very few lawyers, very important, you know, very important, that is, there was this elite, ugh, that is, somehow there is, you know, it is impossible to exterminate ukrainians, it is not possible, this is very important, because even people who were mathematicians and physicists remained ukrainians, and they created, created, created these things that were not ready, where there was no readiness, there was readiness in the sense that this generation, our generation , was terribly provincialized, not because that it... it had its own characteristic that we knocked it out ourselves because we were provincialized very much, we didn't know anything about the outside world, uh, we didn't know, you know, it was written by andrews umland, it's

what you know, that economist who helped ukraine, he said in 1991 in the entourage kravchuk was not there, there was only one economist who understands how a market economy functions, he was a penzenik, but i don't know who he is talking about, a penzenik a penzenik, i remember these words, his yes, he says a panzenik, and he says , the rest, no one had any idea at all, unlike this, navdmi knows this very well-known story, let's say with... balcerowych of poland, when the first non- communist prime minister mozowiecki had the problem of choosing who to become, to make the minister of economy, he c list as many as 10 good economists who were in the west, in ukraine there was only one, nieman could easily go, for example, to europe and give a concert there, this hungarian, balcherovych, you know very simply how they got out, because he was at a football game in america, which ukrainian could be at a football game in america in the 80s-70s x years, absolutely. in the best case, it was someone in moscow who went to moscow and made a career there, as in russian-speaking ukraine, that was all, and that was that, that was, there was terrible provincialization, we were not ready, because

we didn't know how, we, we wanted very much we wanted, we had this purely instinctive feeling, but there was still no feeling of how to do it all, there was just hope, maybe a chance, it worked, that those countries would declare their independence, our life would change dramatically for the better, it did not happen, because we didn't know how laws work, how, you know, patterns work. but this, but this feeling is king and sometimes feelings are stronger than rational considerations, it did not last long, well, one way or another, we are doomed to live with such a neighbor, probably like russia, or maybe we are not doomed, there are thoughts that maybe russia can somehow fall apart , to defragment, but you know, you are here, i will also allow myself to take an example from mass culture, for me russia is something, it is a zombie army from romero’s films, that is, their peculiarity is that, relatively speaking, they can kill anyone turn into part of your army. maybe yes, maybe yes, maybe no, well, if we are talking about the chechens, yes, but it is necessary to quickly knock out, relatively speaking, this system of elites, in order to do what is now taking off, it is very important, but it does not matter who

you are, you you can be chechen but be russian, buryat but russian, ukrainian but very it is important, there is perhaps a simple demographic factor here, it is too difficult to exterminate ukrainians, there are too many of them, you remember, you don't remember, i don't remember, because i wasn't there in 1956, but khrushchev told in the 56th year on this mysterious. that they say stalin had the goal of taking all ukrainians to siberia, the fire was not enough, because this, but it could be different, it is not true, but it is a very important metaphor: you cannot swallow such a big piece as ukraine and ukrainians, because everything - still they remain a remnant, very important, and in to a certain extent, it saved us, because this is our great demographic potential, today ukraine has the lowest birth rate in the world, and russia, in fact. also one of the lowest, they set an anti-record this month in their entire history, despite all putin’s efforts to distribute medals and money for every child born there, and in short: 300

thousand, for example, ukrainian children are in poland right now, they will leave from september 1 to polish schools, it is already obligatory and where will the studies be in polish, or will we return these children? i don't know, it's hard to say because it depends on how long the war will last, how long it will last, what the consequences will be, what the government's policy will be. after the war, my hope is, the calculation is rather that when the war ends, ukraine integrates into the european union, it will begin to integrate, investments will begin, and western investments must begin in ukraine, for reconstruction, for reconstruction, there will be a strong need for people who will have double experience, ukrainians will have western experience at the same time, i think that in such cases we aim to become a so-called golden share. which will be to help ukraine to rebuild itself in a good way, you know, this is an old thesis that no one has canceled, no independence... this

without immigration, because immigration actually gets rid of, allows us to get rid of the provincialism of other sins that we do not see, because we are inside, because migration very often brings new social capital, new habits, you know, i hope that children who study, children who study in a british school, maybe in a polish school, will not return to ukrainian, will return to ukraine, but will not want to study in the school that we have now, you understand what i want to say, this social actal is very important, that is, this is the minus that we can transform. thank you very much for this conversation, we join

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17 in ukraine, for your attention a news release on the espresso tv channel, iryna koval is working for you in the studio, i will just tell you about the most important events for this one. time and we start with the situation in kharkiv, where 41 people have already been injured due to a massive attack by the enemy. there may be people under the rubble of the sports palace, which was hit by several rockets. the search operation is ongoing, - reported oleg sinigubov, the head of the region. among the injured are five children. there is also one doctor in the intensive care unit. according to the regional prosecutor's office, the occupiers at noon fired seven

iskander ballistic missiles at the city. damaged department. new post office, shops, sports.