plus for minus and minus for plus, so really the story is very, very multifaceted, and propaganda, what it is, how it works, that is , it is not necessarily an absolute, absolute lie, it happens that way too, but it takes some aspect of a big problem and illuminates it as , as, as a marker, as a characteristic of this whole problem, and change its plus to minus, well , another aspect can understand this, but... but not the problem as a whole, and only, only the understanding of this story as a whole, it seems to me, can be the truth that can set us free, that is, this, this, this process, the process is much more complicated than changing signs. another very important aspect that i always think about now, when it comes to the future european integration of ukraine, is the historical memory that... divides ukrainians

and their neighbors to the west, but we see that as soon as there is the slightest aggravation of polish-ukrainian relations, it can be about anything, even about grain, the topic of volyn immediately arises and an official or intellectual immediately appears who says: until you accept our narrative, you you won't get anywhere. now, literally these days, if you go to the transcarpathian region, you will see an absolutely amazing picture. in the areas where... the hungarian population lives, you will see billboards that, so to speak, celebrate the trianon tragedy, in the areas where the ukrainian population lives, you will see the same billboards dedicated to the trianon, only there it is written that this is a triumph of historical justice , and this happens literally in one ukrainian region during the war, and it is of course quite serious for me, me would say worry, because i myself. i just

imagine what will begin when real, you understand, not virtual, but real negotiations of ukraine on joining the european union begin, and i think that maybe there are tools that would allow us to find a common denominator, namely historical tools, a dialogue of scientists, common history textbooks , which would remove all these layerings of the past, of course there are, and the only thing that is needed for this... is the necessary political will, and it is clear that history and various historical memories by themselves can provoke some political conflicts, but usually these things recede into the background when politics changes, that is, a great war between russia and ukraine began, which became a threat... only for ukraine,

it is felt, of course, in the baltics and in poland, and somehow historical, historical debates, at least for a while they took a back seat, and the same polish society demonstrated a level of solidarity that was impossible to dream of at all. i am not talking about the dominant role of politics in these historical discussions in order to remove responsibility from historians but in some things , it will be very difficult to agree, to agree, when there was a war on both sides, and each side considered itself, itself right in this, at some points it is possible to simply , ideally, so to speak, press pause, that is, this does not always succeed. this, but

it is worth it, it is also worth thinking about and talking about it, that is, the same polish -ukrainian relations during the war and the solidarity of the two countries, this may not be the best time to raise them and discuss them, because i actually recently saw an interview of a very good the polish historian who came to kyiv, tried to convince his opponent... to accept, to accept certain, certain truths, that is, and one more thing, the gothic, our, our good friend, actually, maybe, that is, i did not specifically mention the name , i for me, along with this, you know, such a friend of ours, who, having such views, he goes to ukraine, shows solidarity, here is a very, very strange situation. in principle, how

could it not be that a person with such a narrative is, at the same time, a sincere friend of the country that a story that, to put it mildly, terrifies him. the past, it’s true, that’s what’s strange, of course, of course, and here is just the moment that the discussion and these debates and disagreements are not conducted between saints on the one hand, sinners on the other, that means, on the one hand , scoundrels, with on the other side by the righteous, that is, on both sides of this debate, it can be... quite honestly from both sides, there are different, there are different truths to a certain extent, and that's why i'm saying that these things, i guess it is ethical now, now to put somewhere on pause, and for one

side, and for the other side, but what i would also like to add is that, well, some elements of the story lend themselves very well to some kind of heroism, other elements lend themselves very well to overcoming, overcoming, for example, conflicts and contradictions, and for unification from the point of view of the memory of the ukrainian ukrainian memory, what is happening today, what is happening since 2014, is the formation, the beginning of the 91st year, it is... the formation in fact of the new ukrainian nation on new foundations, and unfortunately, the last few years, especially the last two, give examples of self-devotion, heroism, er, which is probably

difficult to find even in history, including even ukrainian history, we historians studied some four days of ukrainian independence in kyiv, does that mean... eight, seven or eight months under the german occupation of the hetmanate, the foundation of the academy of sciences and so on, we have today, we are on the eve of the independence day celebration, that is, we have, how many 32 years, this is the 32nd anniversary, yes, if i am not mistaken, 32 years of existence of the ukrainian independent state, 8-9 years, liberation ... wars, these things, which means that not only changed society, changed us, but they also changed the future, the future writing about history, and this, this should become the basis for ukrainian

unification, the history of ukrainian the union between 91, 2014 and 2022-23, that is, it is worth paying attention to this story, through which ... we live bloody, but also tragic and heroic, and uh, descendants will refer to to to this story , to these years, to these days, to these nights, in order to find support for myself, psychological, moral, to find, to find heroes, to understand, to understand also not easy choices that people made, it's not only that. zm. and i think that this is a difficult task for us as historians, but we should pay more attention to our last years, our last decades and try to build a new understanding of the country and ourselves on

the basis of this experience. i just want to further clarify such a fundamental question as how the historical responsibility of the state differs from... the historical responsibility of the nation, well, i'm just for illustrative purposes, when we talk about responsibility for the holocaust, we place this responsibility on the reich, on the german state as such, and we know that there were states, they were state institutions, they acted in different ways, but they were in different relations with the reich, but somehow they were participants, as state institutions of the same holocaust, well, let's say there the croatian state of pavelic, it was one attitude towards... the holocaust, and there was the bulgarian state of tsar boris and it was a different attitude towards the holocaust, but all this can be studied precisely as work state institutions and how their dialogue, if at all at that time it was in a normal form with their own society, well, there was in bulgaria, the bulgarian demonstration against the deportation of bulgarian jews ended in success and

saved people, but if the people do not have statehood, if individual representatives of this people , let them be taken in large numbers in... in these or other crimes, i mean, not only the holocaust, i mean the volyn tragedy, etc., can we say that a people who do not have state institutions, just like that... responsible for one or another major crime, as a state institution, as the state as such, because it seems to me that in our understanding and in the understanding, in the case of our neighbors, it is somehow equalized, i don't know to what extent it is correctly, it is clear that especially in the context of the second world war, especially in the context of the holocaust, there are countries and states that... and conquer and control other peoples and other territories, impose on them

a certain model of ideological behavior and so on, and usually find the level of collaborators and collaboration, but this is this captured territories, well, relatively speaking, what is the responsibility of people in a concentration camp, in the same nazi one, is that they somehow... or otherwise take, participate in some things connected, connected with crimes, apparently we don't put a lot of responsibility on it, er, a little more freedom in the conditions, in the conditions of the occupation, but again it is quite limited, er, but - the responsibility is definitely there, of course, and for me it is very... important ones, for example, i will leave the second world war and from holocaust situations, but they are what i

will talk about, they are related, this is the question of today's russian aggression against ukraine, is it putin's war, is it russia's war, and it is clear that putin is a very important figure in all of this, in all this story, but it is also a product produced by russian society, as hitler was provoked. produced by german society, and this society creates this model of the state and this model of behavior, and this model of behavior creates this society, so i think what the limit of how much it is some regime that occupied the country de jure or de facto, it is an important component, but there is responsibility, there is responsibility. common, there is a social responsibility, and especially when it comes to what you do with

this experience of yours, which is negative, which is criminal and so on, how do you treat it, this, this, if we talk about the historical composition, it seems to me , is the most important component, well then, if you turned to the topic of russia, then we can also ask a question here, which was very relevant the first time. months of war, now about he is not talked about so much, but i tried to think about him too, and now i think that this is not the responsibility of the russian peoples of russia, but the russians really have their own state, and indeed this state gave birth to vladimir putin in one way or another, and it is not even a question of national origin , because in the russian leadership there are people of different national origin, serhii shaigu, tuvynets, let's say by ethnic origin, but it is so clear that all these people serve russian chauvinism in one...or another form, but the people of russia, who have quasi-states that essentially do not protect their

interests, where their national languages ​​are not studied, where their national culture, their heritage is distorted, where everything is done to prove their second-rateness and second-rateness, they are as responsible as the russians for this war , do you remember how at the beginning of the war , even russian propaganda tried to talk with... and many of us accepted this and presented the facts, but you see, there were buryats in our village here in the kyiv region, they acted like beasts, and the chechens , kadyrovtsi still they acted in a more animal-like manner, and as if from the russians, who essentially created this state and this army and this aggression, who need ukraine as their original land. the responsibility was transferred to small nations, which in principle are very far from it. everything from it, even from europe, but they became much more responsible and

cruel than those who started this war and those who have their own, if you will, state interest in this war, well, of course, this is a classic imperial imperial practice, that is , you conquer territories, then you consume these territories, this population for... actually continuing their imperialist war, and then you can, you can hide behind them, that is, this, this, this, this, this is not the first time, not the first time . that is, all these wild divisions and so on, that is, you can later say that it is not us, it is the asians who came somewhere in europe and did something there, and so on, but here we have tchaikovsky, we read, we admire bots and so on and so forth, i.e. these these

these things have already happened, the responsibility of these peoples as such... i don't i don't have any specific formula to talk about, but i have a very specific parallel that i think can help us think about this, what is our responsibility for what the soviet union did in that same eastern europe in '39 in '40 years, for what he did in europe after the 45th year. and that is , in fact, ukraine did not have sovereignty in ukraine, ukrainians did not have sovereignty, on the other hand, well, the ukrainian party elite was one of the most influential in the union of ardennes, that is, i studied the history of kyiv, i studied the history of the caribbean crisis, well then

key decisions about whether or not to shoot down an american plane over cuba were made by two generals. the last name of one was buckwheat, the other was pumpkin, that is , buckwheat and pumpkin, that is, i do not know who they were in terms of self-identity, that is , the question is ethnic or territorial, that is, it is a difficult question, but it is a very real and important question , and i think it will be better for us today to answer the question about buryatia and the provinces, thinking about us and about our role in the empire. importance, we talked at the beginning of our conversation about all these new russian textbooks, but the context is also important, if you like, forging in an imperial or non-imperial narrative, even from soviet times, you see, i thought about it, just when i was

in boredians and looked at this shot monument of shevchenko during the shevchenko awards ceremony, that shevchenko... in one way or another, was a soldier of the russian empire, who always derided this empire, branded it and created such an image in his poetry of this russian empire, on which we were all brought up, and which is an alternative to the image of the russian empire that russians know, i mean not even from history textbooks, because it seems to me that culture can act more strongly than history in the soviet union it was said that ... and the russian empire oppressed other peoples, at least until the 17th year, but students in the schools of soviet russia taught lermontov, taught pushkin, about georgia, which blossomed under the price of friendly bayonets, about the polish uprising, the disputes of the slavs among themselves, and this was written by the best russian poets, in beautiful

words, in beautiful works, with landscapes, i would say, of those countries that were conquered by the russian army, whether in the caucasus, or in poland, or in in ukraine, one of the best ukrainian landscapes was created by pushkin in the poem mazepa, which is essentially an imperial myth about mazepa and such a response to byron's admiration, and on the other hand there were students of schools in soviet ukraine, we learned all this in schools, from a moldovan to a finn on everything is silent in all languages. chureky saklya everything is yours, i am it i remember from my childhood, and this, i would say, could create an anti-imperial narrative, and also pavlo grabovskyi, and also ivan franko, and also lesya ukrainka, all these poets were anti-imperial, while their russian ones, you could say, contemporaries, the best of their russian

contemporaries, praised the empire, and this is already, you know, a pitfall for centuries of misunderstanding. well , yes, you remembered shevchenko's words about from a moldovan to a finn. the finns are also mentioned in alexander pushkin's will. and fina's friend stepey kolmyk should consider him his own national poet. and, his national poet. yes. yes, yes. that is, these, these, these are very, these, these are very different narratives. and they seemed to be. are present, in particular in ukraine, and one in the lessons of russian literature, the other in the lessons of ukrainian literature, but the question is also about... the fact that children who, who studied it, means, well, there are creations, which, which are being formed, which are formed by the teacher, and

the understanding of the reading is also formed by the teacher, and because of this, i would like to emphasize the importance, the importance of the role of the teacher and the importance of the role of the interpreter, in all of this, in all of this history, but... because non-willing could happen and actually happened in any texts, that is, the same shevchenko was appropriated by the soviet, soviet literary narrative, after the end of the soviet union, tamara gundorova wrote, wrote a book about francona kamenyat, yes, that is, franko was only a stonemason, er, shevchenko was only a serf in... so a fur coat, which, so, he specially wore for taking pictures, and this, this is the question of what we do with our heritage,

as we try to understand it, and i i join this conversation now from cambridge, united states of america, where a great debate is currently unfolding regarding the decolonization of russian or russian-centric history. where, in fact , almost for the first time in the mainstream, that is, the main questions are questions about the imperial, the key imperial narrative of russian literature, which, imperialism was recognized as the basis of french and english literature, but somehow russian, actually remained the subject of absolute adoration and idealization, and this is now. .. is changing because of the events in ukraine, and specifically because of the ukrainian ukrainian resistance,

so i would simply like to say that these processes do not only concern ukraine or the post-soviet space, in general the image of the post-soviet space, the russian space in the world, and the trigger for these discussions. became just the opposite of ukraine. well, we can say that ukrainians can be not only witnesses, but also participants in this reinterpretation of the russian imperial cultural narrative and the russian imperial past, because it seems to me that we are not of the end, we even give ourselves an account today of the role in which this russian heritage played in the formation of even the current ukrainian perception of the world, it is this. the situation that opened thanks to the heroism of the ukrainian army, the ukrainian people, will not last forever, if we want to somehow

influence it, we need to be included in these processes, we need to speak, we need to communicate, sometimes it is very difficult, that is, look at modern discussions on the ukrainian internet about good russians, that is, the idea of ​​communication with anyone... anyone actually excluded, interpreted as a possible betrayal, but what this means is the creation at this pivotal moment of a ghetto where we remain our own truth and limit our ability to actually affect change in the larger narratives and perceptions of ourselves and the world around us. again, this is a unique opportunity, to somehow squander, which from my point of view was... a crime, well, there is another big question, to what extent the russian community itself, even emigre, even liberal, is ready for a discussion, if it does not put this

community, i would say her too cultural-historical preference on a pedestal, because this is how people can speak out against putin, but they still have no doubt that russia is the center of this whole civilization, everyone who is considered either an enemy or someone who pretends to ... for the sake of hype, just to say it, i totally understand what you're talking about, i know people like that, but i also know other people who weren't around until 2022, who are here now, and with these people need to talk, i mean, it seems to me that russian society itself, at least partially, should carry out own work on mistakes, to realize at least the weight of one's own... culture in the world context, it seems to me that this is also a soviet influence, mr. sergey, because in the soviet union everyone was sincerely sure that they were aware of the role of their own culture, and

that ... can be compared with world cultural values, and this is a complete lie, because soviet culture existed in a certain isolation from the world cultural context, and from the historical context, and from the scientific context, and only now people can, have the opportunity to understand, well, the real weight of one's cultural and scientific heritage on the scales of a common history with the world, and the majority does not want to do this, yes, that is... there is hiding behind the idea, that is, of a separate civilization, uniqueness and so on, if we are a separate civilization , of course, of course, anything that happens here is unique, it does not need any dialogue with the surrounding, because it, because it is different, it is different, and this, this, this is, this is very serious, very serious problem, but...

changes have begun, and we have the opportunity to support them changes, or isolate yourself and not support and, therefore, subject it, therefore, to someone else? in fact open the way for some interpretations, which in fact will be, will be completely different, if not contradictory. with our experience, with our ideas, i.e. not to knock on the door that was opened by the ukrainian army and the ukrainian people, this would be great strategically, well then, this is also very important to understand, we can enter any door, which, if we ourselves do not consider ourselves to be somehow separate a civilization that is constantly trying to reinvent the wheel, and this is what

ukraine should be in... europe in the future, what should be its place in europe, in your opinion, ending our conversation, well, today ukraine has appeared in europe as in some in the robes of a knight, i don't know, the defender of the border, the european border, ukraine rose to... a war with the russian army, which only the finns were fit for in the 40th year, the poles, for various reasons, could not fight on two sides, in in 1968, czechoslovakia did not even try to do it, hungary did failed, that is, in such a large industrial, large-scale war, well

, we... repent like a soldier, and it was not, it was not our choice, it was not the choice of ukraine, and thus we have already entered, then the question of entering socially , economically, civilizationally, culturally, and here, here the biggest question for us is not even... although now there are big question marks about how far we will be able to survive the military experience and remain a democracy, i still remain an optimist here, but the question is woloflo , that is, in fact, as far as we are we will be able to be a people, a nation, a country that will put the law above. above any other

ethnic, social, economic and so on, the interests of certain groups, that is, this is a key issue, but it seems to me purely from a military point of view, that is, we chose the place, we, we, we, we create and we continue the border, the border of europe further to the east, that is, from my point of view, it is a matter of time, such integration, integration in the sense of a secure europe and the provision of this security, but - culturally, culturally, legal integration, under culture, first of all, i have, i have a culture of law, this will historically be the biggest explanation for us. thank you, mr. serhiy, once again i congratulate you on the holiday, i congratulate you.