the claims that the west has against telegram, that we have against telegram, this is not massive disinformation, absolutely, i would say, planned and completely unregulated, which has a very strong effect on brazilian society, because in brazil twitter itself is the main network receiving information. as in ukraine now the main border network for receiving information is telegram, in brazil , you can imagine every tenth brazilian is a twitter user. we don't have twitter as popular, ex-twitter, i mean, we have telegram as popular, but the essence of both networks, one after buying the masks, the second after it was created by the durov brothers, it is absolutely the same, it is the uncontrollability of information dissemination and its anonymity, it is the fact that information... is distributed by people

who are not responsible for its origin. at the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned maryana bezogula, who made public the information about the death of the f-16 plane, right? mariana byzugla is a living person, a member of the verkhovna rada, and you can have claims against her, you can eventually sue her, however, for disclosure of any information. you can argue with her, as they used to do, let's say, once upon a time. the commander of the air force of ukraine, mykola likschuk, and the former press secretary of the air force, yuriy ignad , responded to her in a strict manner. now , remember andriy, how many anonymous telegram channels there are in ukraine, which are engaged in exactly this kind of information dissemination, which is very difficult to respond to, because they are nobody, they are not named, and even if there are people, i mean, there are journalists. ..

the owner of the telegram channel, another one, this drain tank, then this person says that she has nothing to do with this telegram channel, she sold it 100 years ago, she does not know at all who takes care of it, and that's all in there is a telegram, and there is a lot of high-profile information, and a huge number of our compatriots who read these anonymous channels quite often do not even know whether they are really close to the ukrainian government, it is, after all, to the russian government, and because you you know that a huge number of channels... has been created, which pretends to be ukrainian channels, but they are channels of russian propaganda origin. and durov, like musk, is indifferent to this, that this is freedom of speech. i want to convince you that this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. if there is an anonymous telegram channel, the author of which is not responsible for the distribution of fabricated information. this means that you can become an object of propaganda. the whole society,

not only you and me, if people start to trust such information, of course they will lose everything they can lose in their lives. traditional journalism, as you know, also works with sources that it does not name, but each of us, when publishing certain high-profile information, knows exactly who it comes from, he checks this information more than once or twice, and for sure it is known that the information has not been verified in several ... proper sources, there is no information, but this is our work with you, a huge number of consumers of information, that is, ordinary people, they simply cannot realize this, and just like the post-soviet society before, this a very infantile society, very ignorant, very uncritical, and before, as people said there that they would not lie in the newspapers, now an incredible formula has appeared, i will say that the formula screams.

idiocy, i read it on the internet, and when i ask a person, and where on the internet, what does it mean on the internet, after all, it is on the internet, from politics to pornography is on the internet, where did you read it, here is something you told me, that tomorrow everything will explode, be destroyed, perish, where did you get it from, dear reader, or viewer, or listener, what is my answer, as a rule get the answer when i ask this question, what should i remember? somewhere i believed, that is, this complete lack of information hygiene, it is used this way, you know, there are media of different political views, relatively speaking, some of them we may like and some we may not like, some like cnn, some like fox news, some ukrainian truth is liked, some people like cenzu, but all these media are one way or another. stand for their brand, they

try to verify information, they do or otherwise protect the information they provide and we can say for sure that we read this info here. here we read this information, you and i are living people, when we make some information public, we understand how we will confirm the fact that we made public, and what is anonymous, please tell me , anonymous, who can be sitting somewhere in yasineva and a sincere ukrainian to run a telegram channel, in which to tell how ukraine will disappear from the political map of the world in three months, how zelensky is collecting money to run away. and so on and so on, or anonymous sits somewhere in kyiv and says the same thing, but about poroshenko, because he knows that his employers will like it, and in fact , in this way, helps the russian special services to strengthen the credibility of their slander against

zelensky, because i believe that any anonymous work, even if the people who carry out this anonymous work are sitting right there somewhere in the bankovo ​​district, this is work for the russian special services, and the security service should deal with these people. of ukraine, because it is the creation of an anonymous information background - this is work for the special services of the russian federation, this is work that sooner or later will end with the disappearance of ukraine from the political map of the world, and no army, no ukraine will save ukraine in such a situation, because it will have an absolutely demoralized and demotivated society, and i absolutely firmly state that these people are working on it, i don't know for russian money, or for ukrainian money, how money smells to me, but i know exactly what they are doing, they may not understand it, they may just be idiots. there are such idiots in our country and the carriage is small still a carriage, but one way or another, uh, yes, yes, but one way or another, this is a very dangerous moment, and this moment is not accidental, andrei, when durov created telegram, he knew what he was doing,

and you remember that the network vkontakte, it was exactly like that, you haven't forgotten, yes, of course, but i don't remember why, we, we all used it, we all used it once. yes, we were already used to it then, anonymous accounts, remember, you could register, just write that you, elon musk and a photo of alain delon on the profile print elon musk, and no one stopped you, no one tried to remove this fake profile, from these fake profiles, then it was going and by the way, it is going now, obviously, we just don't use the vkontakte network there. any unforgiving propaganda, telegram is actually a modernized vkontakte social network, and nothing else, we just banned vkontakte, the russian special services caught us from another entrance, so to speak, that’s all, if we are talking about

the context of ukraine, we need think about what to do in general in ukraine with social networks, and this is the case... not only, by the way, in telegram, this is also the case in many other social networks, in particular the tiktok social network, which is actually owned by the chinese, and which is currently undergoing this transitional process in the united states of america about a possible ban, yes, it also brings a lot of negativity to our country, there are a huge number of fakes, by the way, just like in telegram. what do we say about the legal aspects, as early as march of the current year 2024, by our lawmakers, in particular the presented the draft law by people's deputy mykola knyazhytskyi was a bill that concerned

the actual regulation of telegram and social networks, so now, as far as i understand, this is what they want to do with the former twitter. as far as i understand, mr. vitaly, now the profile committee of humanitarian and information policy is going to finalize by the end of september, as well as a complex document, as far as i understand, on the basis of this draft law i mentioned above, in general regarding the regulation of the state of ukraine, social networks, in particular and... . a telegram, we we have other problems. in fact, we in ukraine are watching how a russian product is being promoted even on legal platforms, musical, film, cultural, informational, you can call it differently, for the same money that goes

to the russian state budget every day, and we also need , i’m sorry, something should be done about it, because actually, well... people, some people who don’t quite understand or understand, it’s up to them, the use of such social networks, such programs, actually pay money to the russian that is, the issue is very complex with telegram, and with tiktok, and with various platforms, and so on and so on, this is a long-term conversation. still, the question is for you, your personal opinion, what should we do with all this, with telegram, with tik tok, regulate some part of the information, prohibit it, or demand to reveal the ultimate owners of the channels. what is your opinion, mr. vitaly? i believe that regulation of social networks is not

only a ukrainian task, it is a global task. there can be no open-faced journalism and next to this media space is actually closed, apparently. do you understand? there are internets, there is darknet, there everyone understands that these are different rules of the game. and here everything happens in one and the same space. owners of social networks, by the way, this is what facebook does. however, they must learn to work with verified information, unverified information cannot be found anywhere, the owner of the information channel, information space must be responsible for his actions, well , of course not in a situation where it is some kind of dictatorship, when you are just some kind of you secretly publish high-profile information, but this is another story, you and i are talking about a civilized world, a world where there is a judicial system, here... you and i, if we publish some unreliable information, right

now on this tv channel, we will slander someone , you and i can be sued if our investigative colleagues have found something incredible, you know that well, and here on any other channel, the first thing they will do is meet with lawyers to properly file this information, to protect against a possible lawsuit against... specific people, specific organizations, and next to us there is a bozna that can say anything about anyone, and there will be no responsibility for it, it can't be, so that this is the end of civilization, you know, not only in ukraine, it means that the liar will always win, freedom of speech is not freedom to lie, i say this all the time, i say that the standards of the bbc are completely wrong, when you give two positions, one of which is the truth and the other is a lie, you you can give two different interpretations of the same

fact, but you can't force a person to discuss with this person who is simply outright lying, do you remember how it was with the story of the downing of the malaysian plane by a russian missile, so you had to give two positions, one position was ukrainian, dutch, who want it to be a russian missile, and they expressed themselves here. some russian official there, who was quoted as saying that it was actually a ukrainian plane, shot down that plane, even though there was no ukrainian plane in the sky, nothing at all connected with ukraine, in this tragedy, but they talked about it, they lied, but at least they were officials, there was some press secretary of sechin lyontsiv, he just said it with his lips, and we already knew that it was a lie , and that even if this lie meets ... the bbc standard, it really does not meet any standards of decency, just a regular lying scumbag who

hypes the death of innocent people, now imagine what this lyontsev or some other russian propagandist will create anonymous the channel, why is it being created, it has probably been created for a long time, and it will report all this information, yes, as if he is not a russian propagandist, but a ukrainian official, how can we protect ourselves from this? well, if telegram or twitter allow you to do this, if after elon musk bought twitter, verified users who were socially significant persons, those verification ticks disappeared, blue, remember, yes, yes, yes, and this extravagant billionaire started trading these ticks, meaning now any person who is a nobody can buy this is... a verification mark and under this verification mark to spread misinformation, well

, i always believed that this verification mark, when i had it there in my profile, it means that here i am, i am a ukrainian journalist, i am responsible for my words, twitter confirms that i am a ukrainian journalist, so that people know that they are reading a real person, now i do not have any verification mark, because this ... free bought, twitter buyer, who, as we know, now bought it with the money of people close to the russian oligarchs, they him borrowed money peter avin's son lent him money, avin himself, as you know, is close to putin, here's the whole story for you, and it 's as if alisha rusmanov, a person close to putin, gave money to the fool, so this is really a real political madness, not a medical diagnosis, but a political one diagnosis, and one must

simply return to the common sense of england. not only the ukrainian verkhovna rada, the ukrainian verkhovna rada among other parliaments of civilized countries of the world, protection of freedom of speech is protection of freedom of truth. again, i repeat, i have not finished this thought. in cnn and fox news can have completely different interpretations of the storming of the capitol. and this is absolutely logical in a situation where there are different television or media platforms, but neither cnn nor fox news will hide from their viewers. of the storming of the capitol itself, and russian television, let's say, hides the facts from those who watch it, and that's what the anonymous telegram channels do, they hide the facts and they make up the facts, and in this way they plunge people into complete darkness, in an abyss from which there will never be a way out, and when you and i read such

channels, you and i are professional journalists, we know how to analyze information, we understand how a... information differs from verified information, we may even be interested, yes, as if we bought tickets with you to some theater, or we were led to some mental hospital and we can see through the glass what is happening to her patient, but imagine an ordinary person who has no information skills, this is just an ordinary psycho psychologically raping people, that's all i can tell you. unfortunately, we have what we have, like me i say, this also applies to telegram and other social networks, in principle, i think, the verkhovna rada, our people's deputies, and the world community in general, and mr. vitaly is right, it is necessary to comprehensively, methodically, comprehensively approach this issue

that we have in recent years, it has already grown. to the incredible scale of the issue of disinformation in the world and in ukraine, it has grown to simply unprecedented scales. there are still other issues, and these issues are being raised again, unfortunately, this is the issue of relations, relations between ukraine and poland, here we have again a topic that it concerns historical... contexts, yes, and mr. vitaliy and i have discussed it several times, another scandal, polish prime minister donald tusk announced that ukraine will not join the european union until it resolves historical issues, the so-called with ukraine, whether it will settle historical problems. at the same

time, this scandal also affected the minister. of border affairs of ukraine, mr. kuleba, in particular kuleba also stated that, more precisely, he mentioned the vistula operation, which is also one of the infamous pages of the history between ukraine and poland. he reminded that these people were evicted from ukrainian territory, they were actually resettled in the territory of the western part of the republic of poland, and already... many polish politicians, in particular from the right wing, they say that kuleba should be banned from entering poland, well, that is , such exchanges statements, but the fact that there is already a level of the prime minister who says that ukraine will not join the european union means that we are entering

the next round of these discussions, and discussions, perhaps number of and in the context of the upcoming presidential election, which will take place already in may 2025, i.e. next year, but less than that, this issue will still need to be solved in some way, it will be necessary to discuss somehow, and ukraine, of course, will need to defend itself, but also to talk with poland, talk with polish colleagues, how to reach some result. er, mr. vitaliy, why again, why again the last months, i remember that, and july, we talked with you, and here it is already the end of august, the same thing again, er... this situation, well, why it would seem now, when it is clear to poland that ukraine

is currently fighting against a russian terrorist, that we understand that this issue also needs to be resolved somehow, why now, why is it being raised now and what should we do in this context, at least in the coming months, at least understanding that there will be elections in poland and this issue will be ... will be used, here we will not get anywhere without it, well, first of all, i have to say that we may not do anything in the coming months, because the issue of ukraine's accession to the european union is not an issue of the coming months and the coming months years secondly, i would like to clarify to you that , as far as i understand, polish politicians attacked dmytro koleba, not because he mentioned the vistula operation, but because he called the territories from which ukrainians were evicted ukrainian, right? he misspoke, he meant ukrainian ethnic territories, but then again, we call them that. and in poland, the poles do not think that it is ukrainian ethnic, as you understand, and here too it is necessary to realize, especially to people who are in high diplomatic positions there, that in a certain situation it is necessary, well

be careful with your statements, and don't answer, don't mention the vistula operation, when you are asked about the gumming situation, because these are completely different tracks, each one is important, but diplomacy itself in principle, you yourself are like that, it never leads to. .. free results, this is also an absolutely obvious thing for me, but i am absolutely not going to throw stones at dmitry koleb here, because it is absolutely obvious to me that his discussion with radoslav sekorsky was simply used to raise the hype on this topic, it is clear, there is an absolutely obvious reality, a reality that concerns primarily our contacts with neighboring countries, and i am talking about this reality... i always say that if someone thinks that ukraine will be able to join the european union without regulating complex issues with neighboring countries, he is wrong, i think i

have been saying this for many years in a row. and i always give the example of the republic of north macedonia, which initially could not join nato, because it could not settle the issue of its constitutional name with greece. and greece clearly said that as long as macedonia is called macedonia, it is not called macedonia. the union will not join. in the end , macedonia found a moment, maybe we too will find this moment someday, when in greece there was such an unconventional government for greece in power, i would say very left, even i would say radical left government, prime minister tsipras, and this government was not so excited about the historical legacy as the traditional greek right and left parties, which always did to you always to themselves. era on history and this government was able to agree with macedonia, that it will be renamed north macedonia, macedonia will remain, but will be northern, and macedonia was able to join

nato. but this is where the problems with the european union started, because when the story with the european union started, neighboring bulgaria said no , there will be no negotiations until you accept the bulgarian idea of ​​what northern macedonia is, until you accept that the bulgarians are also always lived in this territory, and... in general, bulgarians consider macedonians to be bulgarians, the macedonian language to be bulgarian, and this is such a complicated story. bulgaria started to block north macedonia's negotiations on joining the european union. and they were blocked until the moment when the macedonians, who were not fed up with it all, voted in the elections for patriotic parties, who do not like the fact that north macedonia is called north macedonia, and now greece can also block these negotiations. and the question arises, and... how many years does this continue? 10. 10 years since macedonia is a candidate for membership of the european union. what about her negotiations? nothing, how long can it continue, it's 25 more. i sincerely wish the macedonians,

that it ended quickly for them, but i still don't see any objective reasons. and what fate awaits ukraine? maybe so. and it is very dangerous, it is true. and this is dangerous not only for our neighbors, but also for us, because i always remind you that if we sit like this in front of the door of... the union, we will hold negotiations, our neighbors, be it poles, be it hungarians, be it slovaks, whether the romanians will demand from us something that we cannot do in order not to disturb our public opinion, then in the end the post-war situation will intensify here russian influence, and the majority of society will say, listen, we have been waiting for the european union for 15 years, well, we had a war with russia 15 years ago, but they don't want us in europe, and russia wants us, so we can join the eurasian union , what? our parents there were such idiots that they boasted about this european union, it is better to be with russia, it does not put forward any conditions for us, well, that is if russia will not put forward any, of course, but

the danger is huge. and this must be explained to polish politicians, and hungarian politicians, and slovak politicians and romanian politicians. all this will be a problem. and we can already see this from the claims that hungary puts forward there, now they are also historical claims for the recognition of transcarpathia as a historical hungarian historical territory. that poland will be more difficult than hungary when it comes to practical matters. i guarantee you that. and you won't do anything special here either, as you understand, but we need to really think about it, well, if not today, then tomorrow, i think, we need to look for mediators, ugh, ugh, mediators there, let's say, in france and germany, to create joint commissions, to look for a compromise, to create a joint commission of historians, with the participation of, say, polish, ukrainian, french

historians, well, for example, to have some kind of referee, so that the countries, other countries, neutral of the european union offer our own option for solving these problems, many such things, many things depend on the extent to which we are able to explain to poland that there are problems of a national nature and there are problems of a local nature, because for poland all relations with ukraine rest on what happened in... actually for people who live in kharkiv oblast or poltava oblast, poland is as different a country as france or belgium, uh, they have nothing to do with poland, i mean from the point of view conflicts, from the point of view of the past, and it is the poles who cannot understand that what

is the central issue for them. for politicians is actually a regional issue, that people in kyiv and in lviv look at these polish-ukrainian relations completely differently, that this is for galicia and for volyn, poland is a big a subject of past history, because the territories were part of the polish crown of pre-war poland, but what to do with the territories that parted ways with poland during the time of bohdan khmelnytskyi, or were never part of poland at all. since kharkiv or dnipro or odesa have never been to poland, they do not understand at all what polish politicians are talking about, you see, they have a completely different historical and political heritage, and these people make up the majority of the population of ukraine, that's what the focus is, and that's why stepan is there for them bandera is a figure of the national movement who fought against the russians, and not at all a person who organized assassinations of polish officials, do you understand, andriy? well, sir.

vitaly, i completely agree with you, and moreover, let's be frank, even for the residents of khmelnytskyi region or bukovyna, uh, they don't quite understand this context, but i often visit khmelnytskyi region, and now it was the same, i also discussed this issue with people, and as you say, the perception there is actually for the majority of people in poland similar to how we we are talking about kyiv or kharkiv, that is, people are not... so of course, and plus we must not forget that this context in poland is also played by such openly pro-russian, maybe former now marginal political forces, for example, the same confederation , which you and i also talked about on live broadcasts, it is already gaining 12, 14% in poland, and they are also

beating it all up and it is clear that they... will, will raise this issue, and the russian forces too in poland, including those masquerading as polish forces, they will raise this issue in a similar way, so here, as they say, all of us, moderate people, people who understand this context on both sides, somehow, somehow think, somehow negotiate, somehow develop a common vision for a common future. and one more topic that i would like to discuss today is, of course, the press conference of the president of ukraine volodymyr zelenskyi, it took place this week, the president said, answering journalists' questions about the situation at the front and the kursk region, of course, there were certain ...