we all together, with joint efforts, overcoming incredible resistance, took a historic step. the spiritual occupation of ukraine is coming to an end. the last organized kremlin structure in our country will cease to exist. at the same time, we managed to preserve the right of ukrainians to freedom of conscience. no one tells them which god to pray to, but no one will allow putin to be that god. subscribe to my channel. it is very important for me. it is very important for us to change. country together, make the country better together, without your support it will not be possible it is extremely difficult, or even impossible, but together we will really build a strong, free and european ukraine, and you will simply be interested. thank you, see you soon! congratulations, friends, the politclub program is on the air on the espressa tv channel. vitaly portnikov is with you. our conversation today will be devoted to those new trends. manifested in

the political life of europe in recent years, the reason was the obvious victory of the far-right forces in the regional elections in the federal republic of germany, just as the leaders of the alternative for germany party came out with their victory press conference, they demand new elections in this country, they believe that in these elections they will be able to get new chances and influence the formation of a new german government, but of course... this is a trend not only in germany, france, italy, hungary are becoming real strongholds of far-right political forces. in the united states, many are preparing for the victory of donald trump, who has become synonymous with the transformation of the country's once respectable conservative republican party into the vanguard of far-right currents in the north america and the world in general. what is happening, how will it be reflected on the russian-ukrainian war, on ukraine's chances to become part of the civilized one. of the world

, we will talk about it today with the guests of our studio, here is historian, people's deputy and former head of the institute of national remembrance volodymyr vyatrovych, we congratulate mr. volodymyr, good evening and political scientist of the national stability platform oleg sahakyan, congratulations mr. oleg, my greetings, we we will also invite guests from various countries of the european continent, now from we are in contact with analysts, journalists oleksandr golobo, he is in germany, we welcome you, mr. oleksandr. good day so, let's start with the most relevant plot. almost half of the voters in the federal states, saxony and thuringia , voted for two parties that set the conditions, i would say, for future coalitions and the development of the political process in germany, the absence of any aid to ukraine. it is, to be brief, but it is clear that these two parties , the ultra-right and the ultra-left, are also eroding traditions. i would say the views of the germans can

influence how germany and the european union will develop in the future, and here a good question arises, whether ukraine will find a place for itself in the european union, where the ultra-right will play such a role and wish good relations with moscow, mr. volodymyr, look, the problem of ukraine is not only in far-right, but also in far-left problems, ukraine's problem lies precisely in this further radicalization of politics, and on the contrary , putin's chances lie precisely in further radicalization of politics. therefore, those who want to present putin as an ultra-right winger are mistaken the main sponsor of the ultra-left, he doesn't actually support either the far-right or the far-left, he supports confrontation, he supports confrontation, and obviously the more chances, the more support these ultra-powers get, the better it is for putin, because it's really gradual undermines this liberal, centrist order, the political agenda, which... has dominated europe for a long time

and which ukraine is obviously targeting as the one that can be a guarantor of its support. therefore, the situation is really dangerous, therefore, on unfortunately, it seems to me that you and i are now witnessing a certain unpreparedness of these precisely centrist politicians for such a scenario, when putin will simply support the ultrapowers on both sides just to destabilize the situation. and russia has done it and is doing it all the time and already. were earlier in the south of europe demonstrated what is now already manifested in central and northern europe, we remember gretske, chrysiavgi, the golden dawn and kukue, the communist party of greece, then they also thought a lot about russia, it must be said right away, the golden dawn at least, how can i say, in their rhetoric they relied quite seriously on the natives of the soviet union, the so-called panthian greeks, and in the principle of sympathy for putin, they are very seriously relevant. and

it is important to understand that for putin it is not necessary that they love putin, for putin it is necessary that they be radical enough to destroy this system, but it seems to me that there are several challenges for ukraine here: the first is image europe, to which we are going. we are integrating into europe in our perception, which has been suspended for some years in the 20th century picture, to the europe of fukuyama, when he was handsome and young at the end of history, to a liberal europe, which is already everything, and we wanted to be friends with russia, which was no longer there, too, which was even half a step closer than ukraine in all integration processes, because the capital was there by inertia, there were also territories that belonged to the zone of influence. in our music , the stock market in ukraine never appeared precisely because of this and many other things, but first of all we have to rethink what europe is for us and what is today's europe, why? ago that the second challenge is this radical right and left wave, it does not speak of the growth of right or left sentiments, because these are populists under

the banner of right and left ideas. in fact, it is about the crisis of liberal europe and about the search for another project, which should be carried out now by a responsible part of the european elites, and... they lag behind this, because they also believed in the end of history and in the fact that everything will be fine in the future and good, and it is important for ukraine to take part now in the process of co-inventing a new europe, because europe is old about what, what for, what is the value of europe for the average european now, at the beginning it was coal, steel, metal union, after the second world war, to trade, not to fight, and then we saw integration, borders that fell, then and science, culture, then... ferocity and in the end the euro launched the joint and then it is just simple expansions and now the average european does not understand what the union is about, a whole generation was born in conditions where all this is and for them it is a given, they do not know what such as obtaining a visa in order to go to a neighboring country because they simply

do not have such experience and do not think about it. i am talking to my peers from europe, i say you understand that if you leave, you will have to issue a visa to go to germany, for example, the british do not issue a visa there from italy, although they came out, well, no, britain is a slightly different story in general, but it is meant, they were already born in a situation where europe has no borders, and they do not even imagine what is behind these ideas, and accordingly, now the search ideas, so the second challenge for us is this to articulate how ukraine can have added value for that europe, and the process of european integration for us, and in particular visa-free travel, which had these consequences, is an opportunity to be on a prominent chair now in the process of forming the very europe to which we will go, we will ... don't go to this europe of the left and the right, because this is an effervescence that will give birth to something, or that europe will degrade, there will be nowhere to go, the european union will be buried or evolve, and the third important point is the security risks now, we need to have his agenda for populists in europe and

of the left and the right, why it is worth supporting ukraine outside the agenda of brussels, well , for example, italy meloni, in russia champagne was opened when she won because the right came to italy and now that's it. let's live, literally the next day the support for ukraine , on the contrary, gained new momentum, this is one of the experiences. peace in poland, with all its peculiarities, but nevertheless, precisely ukraine fell between them and orban, and before that they were best friends and took an anti-brussels position. we also need to study this experience and shape why ukraine, a we can also be defenders for them, including the traditional agenda. let's look at ukraine, at our spectrum, we are not radical, we are not right. in the classical sense, but nevertheless, if here we cannot win over putin with the traditional agenda, if we defend the agenda, then putin is 100 points ahead, not everyone in the right-wing forces is pro-russian, for them putin is a scarecrow, the anti-brussels scarecrow, if

on the ukrainian side there will be elements of the agenda that are not similar to the brussels agenda, say yes, with the left and the left-liberal agenda, that's... it's good that some of them, we can win their sympathy. now we are talking primarily about voters and the populist trend in europe. we also need to have our own leaders who will be able to communicate with these environments. because at the moment it looks like someone is for brussels, someone is for ukraine, someone is against brussels, someone is against ukraine, and someone is for russia. and this trap into which we fell because we are the last romantics of europe, and we believe in that europe, which many europeans no longer believe as such, then we because of this we are. but in this adhesion, they are glued together very strongly with the euro-optimistic agenda within europe. mr. oleksandr, we can exaggerate, by the way, the importance of this entire far-right wave, at least for germany. well, we see several federal states there, well, now it is possible that there will be such success for the far-right in brandenburg, but by and large these are only two

federal states, maybe this just shows another trend, that where there was socialism, people there are ready to accept any radical such populist views here too... germany, here and ukraine, well, everywhere where populism reigns, there was once communism, but in west germany it was not, and therefore, perhaps, germany will not fall ill with populism, the way it fell ill there... post-socialist territories, including the former german democratic republic? i think both here, both theses are equally valid, on the one hand, it's absolutely true that at the federal level, what happened doesn't look so catastrophic if we look, let's say, compared to if we look solely at the results in these states, saxony... and other eastern states, they are basically traditionally, traditionally, we

are talking in terms of the last decade, tend to vote for radical parties, and i am not only an alternative for germany before the emergence of sara wagen knecht's block, they are very, very actively voted for the left party, which in fact in the federal republic became, well, half the successor of the east german socialist party. therefore, half of them were west german leftists, super radicals, half of them were actually such people who were trying to find themselves, and a new career in german politics, from the political elites of eastern east germany, by the way, sarah wagenknecht, who received huge support from a huge, and compared to other parties and compared to the fact that she actually founded her bloc. literally on the eve of the elections to the european parliament this year, she is a typical representative of such

an east german elite, a stalinist, very, very charismatic at the same time, unfortunately for us , a person who, in fact, is now trying to play a role in all-german politics, but is winning primarily in the east , that is, where people live mentally. relatives, to whom she primarily reached, now we see mrs. sara wagenknech on the screen, but if we speak, at the same time we, i would still not minimize the importance of what happened, what happened in these elections, ah , to the local, to the lantags, and what happened just recently in the elections and the european parliament, we see almost the same voting results, indeed, and according to... and the horseshoe principle , the right and left radicals are gaining the most, in which it is very

difficult to find in some places the difference in their views, because despite being the same saara wagenknech, she's supposedly left-wing, she's now pushing some pretty anti-immigrant rhetoric, which , for obvious reasons, is again popular with the east german population, and thus scores points and so… in fact , many do not rule out that in the end, after long stories about the fact that the ultra-rights to the ultra-left will never be together in the same coalition, they will still merge, so to speak, in the ecstasy of radical politics and possibly form a ruling coalition in one of lands, or at least they will very often situationally vote for each other's draft laws when they respond. in their interest, at least the same sarah wagen knecht spoke almost openly about it

before and on the eve and even after the election, when she said that they are right, but if they will say to the sun that the sun is the sun, then we will not argue with this, in this way, in fact , announcing that this is how we will probably cooperate sometimes, so it is actually very an alarming story, why, because we see that, first of all, absolutely radical parties, well, with absolutely wild subcodes, ideas, are gaining huge support for ukrainians, this is primarily alarming because it is primarily true, as mr. vitaliy said, as mr. vitaly said, these are anti-ukrainian parties, within the bounds of what is supposedly decent, that is, everyone says that war is bad and so on and so forth, but after this remark they immediately begin to repeat putin's narratives and that we should be friends with russia, and she is big and... her there is absolutely nothing wrong with this, that's why,

firstly, this is an alarming trend, secondly, we see a very clear, as it was mentioned again, a very clear split between eastern and western germany, if you look at the map of electoral preferences after the elections to the european parliament, it is very clearly visible where the border between the eastern and west germany, and this is independent, regardless of individual polling stations, stations, literally, if... the westernmost polling station of east germany voted for an alternative for germany, the easternmost district of west germany voted for the christian democrats, this border is absolutely geographical, where eastern germany begins, there it begins, there begins the attachment to radical

parties, at least much greater than in the west, well, by the way, we have always had so electoral. long decades between that part of ukraine that was part of the russian empire and that part of ukraine that was part of the russian empire in ukraine, that is, in poland, in poland, that is, under austrian poland under russian poland, and this is really completely typical for this region, and here when we talk about these populist sentiments of the far right, far left, if specifically in germany, or in eastern europe, in general, it really is a communist bloc, it really is an example of that history is still with us, history... has not yet been overcome, the consequences of this communist totalitarian past have not been completely overcome and they are manifesting, even deeper consequences, you see, really even from the time of the russian, austro-hungarian empire, therefore, it is obvious that one must understand that history often explains the present, and to understand the process of the present, one must sometimes delve into history, but at the same time, i absolutely agree with oleg that the problem also lies in the fact that

liberal politicians, classically liberal politicians, left-centrists, right-centrists . unfortunately, it seems that they have somehow exhausted their agenda, that is, they are really not ready and do not want to think about what new things to offer, all that they offered, that they fought hard for, that gave them some impetus, energy for decades after of the second world war, this is mission complit, this is already accomplished, this is already something that happened by itself, this is already for many europeans, they are this is their water, they are fish in that water, they... no no even its needs are noticed as long as this water exists, well, as it is in great britain, as it is, it turns out that we can't do that and we can't do that, that is , that's why, that's really the challenge before the europeans, before those centrist, let's say, europeans, in front of this classical liberalism, it is to prepare some a new agenda, and it seems to me that the fact that putin is now using the absence of this

agenda should, on the contrary, add impetus, perhaps this is one of the topics just for this. er, the renewed liberal agenda, here we are talking about some kind of anti-imperial agenda, which is again becoming relevant, given the russian threat, and in this matter, again, i would rather agree with oleg that ukraine can still refresh this , a seemingly outdated, perhaps liberal agenda, because well, i'm sure that this story is not over yet, that is, it can still be continued, but the main thing is to set yourself the task that the end of the story really is. it is not the end, that we, we, we must continue this story, and, we, for us, again, for the ukrainians, taking into account the fact that this is a matter of survival for us, maybe this should give us some additional energy, for example, why should we not be afraid of some, excuse me, even missionary in order to remind europe of these some classical, classical liberalism, if possible to put it this way, to be honest, i am still very

concerned about this question of political conformity, because when at one time... in austria, representatives of the austrian freedom party and the organization haider were invited to the government for the first time, it was a general european scandal, he cannot be a radical the representative of a country that is a member of the european union, there is no such thing now, it is of course a party that no one wants to see in the government, it is an alternative for germany, but it is in fact the only, the only force, so far it is true, which is what they are talking about , we will not pass it, this it is impossible, but all the other far-right parties in europe, please, from portugal to... this same germany, if we talk about the sar vhneh alliance, no one sees any problems in alliances with them, and by the way, this applies not only to alliances , it refers, if you will, to the legitimization of influences. recently, we saw how president zelensky met at one of the international conferences with geert wilders, he is a really authoritative figure, a person who won the parliamentary elections in

the netherlands, he is a person who influences... the activities of the government in the netherlands, there are good studios, but if you are in a studio, then conformism. okay, i think that this populist agenda is not so much about conformism, but ukrainian, let's say, in relation to the european one, and you know, i'll just turn to a personal story, again with my analyst friends from europe, when we were talking about the situation with beers and says: you know, they were just sitting among themselves, playing, and what kind of party would they create, which would take power, and i say, well , okay, in the plan, here is what ideological party and so on, basics and shorter. i caught myself thinking that they are quite seriously thinking in absolutely populist terms about how to mold

a party to come to power under the wildest dreams of, let's say, their societies, and why, and we will come and do everything absolutely differently, but it was not like that in europe before, if people came to power, they fulfilled their promises, that's what changed, and this is what russia uses, a large part, why i said about melons in italy, why in... greece about syriza, why can we talk about others to come, the last wave, let's say, that's right, we are now watching, just as we go to the ninth wave, and we are somewhere on the fifth or sixth wave, maybe, if not the fourth, but the first, the first waves were already in europe , and this approach, and it rises from the south to the north, if we look now at the scandinavian countries, then in general this problem is not so acute there, but it is already biting, and if we take greece, italy, then there are even countries where over... there was already a fever in the same greece , democracy is not in power now, and it seems to me that the problem here lies precisely in this desire to take power at any cost, and

overnight, without strategies, without any ideological values ​​and other restraints, and this populist cream, it gives this radicalization, that is why both the right and the left converge in their often positions, because they are neither right nor left, in fact, they just are. by the way, this is the story of putin, this is the story of putin, power for the sake of power, i.e. putin, who starts as an allegedly liberal politician, who is taken in a completely different direction, i.e. it is absolute cynicism, how orbán appeared, well, he is the only one the most european among all the europeans was, but tell me, alexander, maybe the german voter punishes the ruling powers for the fact that they just keep their promises or not, that’s how it may look, you keep your promises, but the voter doesn’t like that these promises are kept, yes it also happens. i think it is very difficult to talk about promises here, because when the traffic light so-called coalition, which

consists of the social democrats, the current chancellor scholze, the greens and the free democrats, came to power, there were actually two topics that could be talked about say, this is the first thing that after... the crisis with the coronavirus, germany was among the countries that was quite strict in terms of introducing lockdowns and so on and so on, and there was a certain fatigue from the party in power, and accordingly the voters then already punished very strongly christian democrats, who are now effectively in opposition, but have become wildly popular again because they are not in power, and the social democrats, the social democrats... led the current coalition only because they have a reserve, relatively speaking, lost votes, it was none the less so high that there were still

more of them, and they were able to bring two more parties into the coalition, which usually used to be below the ten percent barrier, this time they gained a little more, and that's how we formed a traffic light coalition, were punished even then. germans, but not for broken promises, but because there was a crisis that changed the course of life very much, and for which there were hardly any right answers, because if there had been no lockdown, perhaps many more germans would have died, because germany is a relatively old nation demographically speaking, just like italy, fortunately in germany , there was no such deadly wave as it once was in italy, maybe this lockdown saved many germans from death, or maybe not, it's very difficult for me to say this, i'm

definitely not an epidemiologist who can speak here with any degree of confidence, but for many germans it has broken their lives very, very badly, some have lost their business, some simply don't have a vacation, something is a little out of whack with us tongue that's all remember, no, everything is fine, yes, please, i hope that i can be heard again or not, heard, great, i hope that you have heard that the lives of many germans were in fact, if not broken, then greatly changed, and actually, not knowing what to do, where to put their frustration, they decided to say goodbye to the authorities, and this time we, not us, but the germans, experienced another. crisis, ah, it is absolutely not comparable to what ukrainians are experiencing now as a result of russia's aggressive war, but one way or another, this war also affected

germans due to... russia's refusal to supply gas to germany, to germany, many german industrial giants actually lost their survival and competitiveness model, and because of this many germans are losing their jobs, huge inflation, again, huge not by ukrainian standards, but by german standards by standards, ah, people who used to be able to afford two vacations in conditional majorca, now they can only take one vacation a year, again, it’s me... it’s clear that for ukrainians it’s not nothing, it’s in general posh, beautiful life, but for the germans, who have been used to living for decades, knowing very well in advance what they will be doing in two years, because everything is so stable, they know exactly what they will cost, how much the products will cost in the supermarket even next year, suddenly everything changed, and it was a big shock, and now, as we see, the existing authorities are being punished for it, hardly

an act. the authorities would have answers to the question of inflation, to the question of preserving the short-term competitiveness of german industry, because all the foundations for these problems were laid in the previous decades, mother merkel, who now does not admit any guilt or responsibility for the catastrophe that ukrainians and germans are experiencing now , in a certain way, actually laid these foundations , building the northern streams and'. actually fixing the economic growth model of germany, but it's a long story, i think we can talk about it for hours. well, by the way, this is what you said, mr. volodymyr, about the agenda has been exhausted precisely because all social possibilities have actually been built, and people are now reacting harshly to even the slightest relaxation of the level that has been in europe for decades, looking for simple

answers to a complex solution. here, this is an excellent soil for the population, again , regardless of the type of ultra-left or ultra-right, who can really promise something completely different and, and i would also like to respond to what was said in our previous conversation, about mistrust of politicians, and again- still here in a very winning situation there is russia, its propaganda, which systematically introduces false expectations of society. there is no truth, therefore, well , there is no point in sticking to some truth, because you will lose, only because in this way you will limit yourself, and this applies both to voters and, unfortunately, to politicians, who are beginning to understand that it is cheaper to lie for profit than to adhere to one's own line, and then later to be held accountable for it, and unfortunately, again, this is grist to the mill of the same putin, i completely

agree, and i would even say that putin... it works here simply because of the russian historical ability to instrumentalize everything, this is one of the models of the russian state in general for its survival, they instrumentalize sports, the church, the diplomat, anything, and they were the first to grasp the metamodern trend just in time post-truth, and their propaganda and the opportunity to lie straight to the face, absolutely, and their propaganda said that okay, then why carry a picture with you like in the 20th century. world ideal, some kind of communist, capitalist, etc., she is afraid of doubts, let's go let's cast doubt on propaganda, listen, i have to tell you that i remember how it all started, once upon a time i was at a session of the verkhovna rada of the russian federation, and then there were conflicts between the head of the verkhovna rada ruslan khazbullatov and yegor gaidar's government , and ruslan khazbullatov said the famous thing, he said that it was a boy.