to answer, and unfortunately, again, this is grist to the mill of putin himself. i completely agree, and i would even say that putin is acting here simply because of the russian historical ability to instrumentalize everything, this is one of the models of the russian state in general, its survival, they instrumentalize sports, the church, the diplomat, anything, and they the first ones simply grabbed the metamodern trend just in time for not even post-truth, but also their propaganda. century to carry with it a picture of the world that is ideal, some kind of communist capitalist etc., she is afraid of doubt, let's make propaganda about doubt, listen, i have to tell you that i remember how it started, once upon a time i was at a session of the verkhovna rada of the russian federation, then there were precisely conflicts between the verkhovna rada chairman ruslan khazbelatov and yehor gaidar's government, and ruslan khazbullatov said the famous thing, he said that these are boys.

russia is ruled in short pants, a famous aphorism, and when representatives of the government said to ruslan khazbolato, well, how can you talk about the government, well, you are the chairman of the parliament, i didn't say that, said ruslan ka, how could i say such a thing, and here they turned on the recording of the interview, the recording where ruslan khazbulatov's voice is sitting and talking, in the session hall they turned on the recording, ugh, and we hear that too all these words, both journalists and deputies, boys in short pants, well, we knew that he was saying it, we heard it from him personally, yo... he speaks absolutely calmly, i did not say such a thing, fake news, oh, well, he didn't even know such a word, but it's a russian analogue of fake news, how can you prove it, and this is their classic and it's in their culture, and therefore doubt what they have done, they are helping this destructive process, they are eroding not physical, but social distance, not what you call, but real social distance, and they are destroying the key matter without which any a republic is impossible, trust, absolutely, they destroy... faith, and then they say

never mind, the crucified boy does not appear at the moment when they said he was, at the moment when someone said he was not there, they say , great, come to us, let's talk with you, and why do you say boy and why not girl, but maria petrivna says, girl, someone was not killed by a ukrainian plane, and the fact that the plane was not shot down does not matter then, and the plane was already full of corpses, etc., and they say, why is your truth greater than ours, and thus they doubt is being made by propaganda, doubt is being promoted by propaganda, but... this is not about the reason, they are only taking advantage of the new social conditions that have been created and they are just russia, going ahead as a destructive force. now the question is what healthy forces can offer as a change in the metamodern era ideologies, as certain visions, and what can be the ideological, let's call it, basis for this european centrism, and european intellectuals are facing this challenge. not

only that, and precisely because of the inability to provide such a product, populism actually grows, behind populism are simply cynics who come to power, do absolutely everything they want, and there are no safeguards against them, well, by the way, you can ask the last two minutes on this very topic, you can ask mr. oleksandr, before you, how to say goodbye to him, whether europeans in principle have some understanding of how to deal with it, or will they just, just watch as such forces come to power. we have no sound. please, i think so, yes, i hope it sounds a little better. ah, i, at least for now, i can talk about germany, because about other european countries, i still, unfortunately, do not follow so closely, but in germany, at least now, i do not see any answer, and this is partly connected, or rather, they are now trying very, very, very hard.

the answer to na mitzy, but so far it looks not really sure, because there are two things, er, why it doesn't work, the first is that the far-right and the far-left are resorting to very radical extreme rhetoric, one of the problems in germany that is really important, it is migration, and it was not that it was taboo to talk about it before, but it was very difficult to talk about it, because after all , the topic of migration is very sensitive, and to receive accusations of racism or phobia, xenophobia, other possible phobias , it was very easy, but somehow large migration flows when hundreds of thousands of people with a different cultural background and a different understanding of what is good, what is bad and so on and so on suddenly arrive in ukraine, always leads to certain problems, the native for germany

uses this very vividly, and we now see that other the parties are starting to understand that migration is a problem, they are starting to be... tougher and talk about the fact that, after all , it is necessary to deport very quickly those who break the law and so on and so on, but as always, when we see unique the original and the not very interesting fake, people always choose the original, in fact, such attempts to play on this rhetoric only feed the mill of the same alternative for germany or the sarov union, who saddled this topic first, and accordingly the typical choice... sees it and says : well, they started first, so why will i vote for those who pick up this rhetoric later, and the second topic, which the radical right and left have mastered much better, i think, is that in europe, at least in germany for sure, in general gradually, slowly, but yes, yes or

otherwise the social, the so-called social capital is eroded, it is visible in the fact that in the churches now we see much less members of the congregation who are members of these them. churches as organizations, and this is exactly what happens in parallel with many parties, the traditional parties, the so-called old parties, lose their members, less people come to them, and ah, the old members, relatively speaking, just die, and thus this party is becoming more and more elitist, that is, many germans begin to feel that politicians do not represent them, and they will speak out because of this, but the problem is that the germans themselves do not want to join... a political party and, accordingly , they build their idea of ​​politics on the basis of tv and social networks, and social networks are actually one of the keys to the success of this same alternative to germany , alternativeists, it is immediately clear that they will not

reach the germans with the usual methods, because traditional journalists do not perceive them very well, and in principle they say all kinds of nonsense that is very easy to refute, but he said... there is a lot of nonsense on facebook and tiktok it's easier, well, we we know this in ukrainian, but this tells us how much it can be answered. thank you, thank you, mr. oleksandr, we are now back on the air after a short break. tingling, numbness, bother you. the dolgit antineuro complex helps to normalize the functioning of the nervous system. dolgit antineuro capsules. helping your nervous system. september discounts on lactial. 20% in pharmacies, plantain, memory and savings. lacquer fix fixes reliably, my dentist advised me. yes, and reduces gum inflammation. and the price is good, economical. lakalut fix. czech republic, ukraine, only on

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buying a large package of 150 g, you save up to 50%. there are discounts for mukaltyn once again. 10% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. a new week on espresso, a weekly summary information and analytical program, a clear understanding of the key events of the past week, analysis of the causes and consequences of these events from experts, forecasts of the development of the situation on current week, the opportunity to ask your own questions and join the discussion, spend the final monday evening with us and sure. step into the new week. the new week project with khrystyna yatskiv and andriy smoly, every monday at 8:00 p.m. on espresso. the verkhovna rada regularly passes new laws, but how do these changes affect our lives? we have analyzed the new decrees to inform you about the latest changes in

ukrainian legislation. how do legislative norms change our lives, what should we prepare for? on these and other questions, which ukrainians are concerned, leading lawyers will answer. watch every tuesday at 7:55 in the legal expertise program on the espresso tv channel. we continue the political club program on telespresso, vitaly portykov is with you, we are discussing with our guests, here volodymyr vetrovych, people's deputy of ukraine and oleg sahakyan, political scientists and co-founder of the national platform for sustainability and cohesion, we are talking with them about how the political landscape of europe, this europe, is changing , which we so long for, now we will devote some time to the polish ultra-right, join them to our conversation. political scientist and journalist marik, welcome to our studio, congratulations, congratulations, congratulations, glory to ukraine, glory to the hero, oleg

sahakyan was just talking about the fact that in poland there are liberals, and moderate left and moderate and right, not even moderate right, so that the party of law and justice can be said to be an ultra-right party, it positions itself in the european parliament, they are all on the side of ukraine, the government of law and justice helps ukraine. the president of law and justice is a tough defender of ukrainian positions in europe, but it is not let's say the confederation party is hindering there, it is a coalition of such grouped parties to actually block all aid to ukraine, they organized the polish blockade of the polish-ukrainian border and no one really tried to oppose them, neither the government of law and justice, nor the government of the civil platform, they are in favor of... with ukrainophobic slogans, and their popularity is growing, this is an amazing thing that, in principle, there is

a great support for ukraine in polish society, on the other hand, there is a party that on all instincts, on historical, even parasitizes the instincts of the poles and is popularized during this war, which the poles should perceive as dangerous for themselves, you know, this is such a political minority at the moment, but let's be honest, a very proactive minority that imposes its own agenda, and you absolutely rightly noted that there was no clear, decisive reaction from their, well, it would seem, clear political opponents from the liberal side , nor in the matter of these peasant protests, it all dragged on a lot even though reformatting had already taken place power, nor in the matter of these historical-political discussions, as i see them, these historical-political discussions are important precisely because... this is a certain crack through which the confederation expands its

influence, imposes its political narrative to other political forces, she absolutely imposed this political narrative on the law and justice party, which in principle also had its own ideological traditions from the time of solidarity, sufficiently pro-ukrainian, even those that would speak of some contacts between the polish nationalist movement, the ukrainian nationalist movement, but... then it all turned into such, well, an outright increase in anti-ukrainian sentiments, and now, unfortunately, we see that already after the reformation of power in poland, this historical and political narrative of the confederation is picked up by donald donald tusk, picked up by radoslav sikorsky, who also repeats, well, in fact, the phrases of the confederation in this matter, and maybe, you know, someone will think that it is not so important, because it only concerns the question of history, but... no, i'm sure that this is just the beginning of what this so far, not so much an influential

political force begins to impose its political agenda, and instead of some clear, decisive position, there will be some political force, let's put all these historical discussions, which are not make sense now in the current political situation, we see that almost all politicians, leading politicians of poland pick them up, the main thing is that he seems to be the only one who said so. why not, let's still go to europe and then history first to europe and then historical, this is the only decisive the vote was, what do you think will be the position, i would say the winning position of donald tusk, that first historical agreements, then european integration, or szymin's position are the most important, what is first, what was kaczynski's position before you, what is the position confederation, by the way, but you can say that, of course, simply tonali tus is the prime minister, or this position, about which he said. volodymyr, first european integration, and then the resolution of historical, i would say, differences between poland and

ukraine. it is necessary to understand one thing, it is so in fact, russian slogans and, above all , populism in the edition of the confederation, and of course, as for donald tusk and shikorsky, i believe that today there are no better friends of poland for ukraine, like these people, because um... it shows a lot of ranks , that they actually admire ukraine so much, the words, well, kuleb were also quite controversial, and they could not leave it like that. but it is not the case that the confederation pretends that it is so very powerful, that it counts, and that someone is bribing its narrative, on the contrary, the confederation - this is good news for all of us, now there will be, as they say, a big divorce in the confederation, there love ends, uh, like

in all such extreme right-wing parties, everyone wants to be a fuehrer there, and soon we will see her... huge sfarti, this is great news for us, because putin's defeat, well, i could say the hundredth, bet on the wrong horse, and as for donald tusk, he is actually gathering votes across the entire political spectrum, and this statement, i believe, it is unnecessary and not useful, both for poland and for ukraine. so was actually aimed at to say that he is such a super polish patriot, let's not forget that both the confederation and peace constantly consider him to be pro-german, i would say, even an agent working in favor of germany, and finally, andrzej duda, the president of poland, well

directly called donald tusk is a cooperative man. with the russian fsb against against poland, including, well, that is, i would push all of this into a very brutal political struggle, as not always in ukraine everyone understands that this is what is really happening in poland, by the way, if we talk about public mood, this is also such an interesting topic that i always think about, here in poland , the german union of exiles has always caused obvious irritation. a fairly authoritative organization in germany, which is close to the christian democratic union, which has always presented serious, i would say historical, economic, and property claims to poland, the leaders of this organization, in principle , did not hide that they wanted a certain historical revenge donald tusk, by the way, was born in these territories, which are the territory

of this revenge for this union, he of zgdańsk, i.e. of the former danzig, and together with that... who understand how dangerous such motives and such organizations are for german-polish cooperation, are ready to accept such attitudes in their own society, that's how strange, practically the same, that is, the same attitude towards the ukrainian polish historical heritage, which concerns exactly those lands from which the poles were actually expelled by the soviet authorities, what you say there is a fact, they are very similar to... in which, by the way, they also expelled from these territories the same red army, as well as from the territories of today's galicia and volhynia, rhetoric, narratives of the union of exiles and the so-called krasovyaks in poland, they are essentially absolutely identical, and the only thing that seems to me is the influence of

the krasovyaks in polish politicians are much more powerful, that is, they are really on... with any political changes in poland, they leave behind, keep behind themselves the influences that, it seems to me, they took shape politically somewhere back in the early 2000s and continue to remain quite strong in polish politicians, er, our expert said that it is good that putin bet on the confederation, it is a horse that will not go far, but you have to understand that putin never bet on one horse, i am sure that in poland is also this this this. is far from the only horse on which he bet, and moreover , it is necessary to understand that, once again, for putin , it is not horses that are just as important, if we speak so figuratively, but what they carry with them, and these narratives of the dependence of politics from history, it is beautiful actually for putin, and when these narratives for various reasons, which we try to explain, understand, justify,

are picked up even by politicians who are far from putin, such as the same sikorsky and tusk, this is putin's victory, that is, it is also... what is the real reason, why is it all being done, this is not done by putin for the victory of the confederacy, that is, for him, the confederation or any other radical force is just a tool, and if this narrative picks up another, even partially this rust, of doubt, which we talked about in our previous part, if at least partially it will be picked up by others by politicians, it's great, that is, if it, if it starts to grow in this environment, moreover, this one told the story of tusk. he is much more effective and legitimate than that of a particular confederate whom everyone knows is a lunatic, there is nothing to listen to him, but oleg, maybe he is really right when he says that ukraine is not very popular. .. in polish society, and the truth must be said, ukrainians are always not critical enough about their own attitude to historical events, especially in times of war, in i really don't want to go through such trials

to talk about my own negative role in history, this characterizes any people, not only ukrainians, but now is just such a moment, even i would say that it is not just critical or uncritical to look at yourself, we have a textbook the history of literature is written on the principle that they got upset and rebelled, we have it there in general. some subject that exists, except when it revolts or complains, it is not there, and the state subject is absent at all, we have a history of the lands on which the state of ukraine is located, which somewhere belonged, were somewhere, etc., and only individual figures, and the figures who did, lamented, rebelled, lamented, rebelled, well, relatively speaking, bohdan khmelnytskyi, the family was affected, stood up, there are other figures, let’s take mazepa, the same as we will see princes, the same. all because of personalities, just the territory that passed, and accordingly, we simply do not have our own historical narrative, and because of this

, in many ways, we grab for the fact that we are simply good, everything that is bad means someone else, well, who bad, that muscovite for example, well, here with poland it is difficult to say that there is no muscovite, although in some moments our muscovite is also wrong, we have a common problem with the poles here, this is often done. in the territories that in one way or another knew the common polish-ukrainian history, but relations with poland, it seems to me, are now held hostage by several things. the first - the 90s, the role of the church, john paul ii, etc., and accordingly, there was a clear effort of the elite, first of all the church, the church plays a significant role in poland, in order to build a common future, accept. mutual forgiveness and close historical page, the church artificially turned its head, turning the head is limited to 90°, to 180, so that it does not turn back into history,

but only looks back and looks forward. the second point is the economy. we were in a situation where there was no economic gap, before the collapse of the soviet union, it was the opposite, then there was a plus-minus, and now we have a big gap in poland. and accordingly, it also fuels polish pride, and this is the same story that is also present in german-polish relations to a certain extent. and accordingly, the third moment, in this economic growth, is that now the elites no longer stand on the ground they needed when they were going through their path of european integration and development. poland is the only country in europe that flew by almost without noticing the crisis of the eighth year, because their economy did not slow down, they were just on the trend of growth. they have a whole generation that lived a little better and better and better every year, but all this prosperity was not connected with ukraine, and accordingly, if we now

take our economic ties, our ties more broadly, which are related to financial and economic activity, there is almost no ukraine there, if these economic ties were realized and capitalized, converted into political, social capital, etc., it would be unprofitable. then the farmers would be blocked by others and they would say don't block the arteries, we are losing money because of that, where the farmers themselves would not come out, because they would understand that this is a pocket issue. polish culture is rather pragmatic, and accordingly, where there is a zloty, there, in particular, history is not completely forgotten, but it is a little advances because the pragmatism of polish culture allowed the poles to survive, or to go through all the historical tragedies that were on their way, and therefore... i think that these three challenges at the moment, the church, the economic imbalance and the lack of integration of the economy into our ties, the absence of ukraine as part

of the solution for the poles, they will continue to hide from us , not only in the populist trend, but also in the fact that poland's successes will now be built from the position of looking from the top down towards ukraine, and in 5, 10 years even the surnames of some politicians will change, but we will have these problems in a hypertrophied state and not only in... the marginal, right and left radical movement, because we simply have roads with different speeds and go slightly in different directions. mr. marik, what do you think, olek soakyan is right when he says that we may have an even more serious escalation of this, i would say, controversy in the future, if we do not take some decisive actions now. of course yes, i agree here that we will have a very dynamic process here, which will be us we won't quarrel like that in other positions, because first of all, it's easy to take such a historical factor here, it

will be a shirt closer to... the body, my shirt is closer to me, and every nation has its own historical memory, ukrainians have their own , the poles have their own, and here, well, of course, there can be no agreement, the germans also have their own, and it is not at all similar to the polish historical memory, it is the first, the second, about economic relations, i remember that in the last two years , a lot has changed in that shack, ukrainians work for the polish economy in in poland, many companies, this is the first time... once in two years, the polish pension fund is not a minus, with a very negative demographic, i would say a demographic crisis in poland, very few children are born, as in the whole of europe , and in fact, thanks to ukrainian companies and ukrainian taxpayers taxes, which turned out to be polish payers, because they conduct business in poland, there is no, there is no deficit, and ukraine does not communicate about this either as a state or

as a society. it causes her very, very unpleasant emotions, but, look, there are many people, which, in which something changed, i remember the first months of the war, when the polish authorities were in no way prepared and could not be prepared for what happened on the polish-ukrainian border, it must be understood that what happened there

was simply .. the position of polish society, which came to the border, took people to their homes, the self-government authorities, which gave money to firefighters and other services to carry this aid to the border, and this was a decision of the very bottom of society, and not from above the order came and then they started to go to border, many were spontaneous, there are many from... government organizations, but ukraine needs to communicate with us with polish society, and it seems to me that ukraine does not communicate there, and our government does not even communicate with our society, and the pro-ukrainian ones do not either. they say, because imagine that to this day the polish government does not have a press secretary, the person who is the main public relations officer of ukraine does not exist, and when

tusk is asked why, he says: it is not necessary, because every minister is a bit of a public relations person, and he should give from there, it is not his task to sit, during the information war, to do only that, as journalists, as political scientists , we understand very well, then some information flies around the world four times, as some press service decides something there, you write something there, then what do you scratch, but here at all there is no sign to do that, there is no one to communicate with, to guide these informants, politicians, that is, well, we really walk like children, like a blind man walking through a mine field, and this is how internal politics in poland looks today, as well as polish-ukrainian relations in reality, and it is necessary here to say frankly, that there is no one to do , there is one more thing, that polish and ukrainian society is so similar that they always change

states absolutely absolutely. about the fact that there is no one to do, we must not forget that now at such a very responsible time, when some contradictions are growing at such a high political level, ukraine has not had its ambassador in poland for several months, and it is not yet clear who exactly will be, and here is the delay of this case, well, in fact, it is very dangerous, but i wanted to respond a little more to what oleg said, really in the 90s a huge role was played by the churches in order not to be allowed to dive into some too deep historical ones. discussions, so that they did not turn into some kind of political revenge, but at the same time, there was also responsible politics, responsible political elites on both sides, we are talking about the first generation of solidarity in poland, in ukraine, the ukrainian national democrats, who also understood that these are the issues that need to be restrained, and this actually was the guarantor of the fact that this did not happen in the early 90s, despite the fact that then people, who were directly witnesses, affected by this polish-ukrainian conflict, were shocked.