absolutely, absolutely, eh, about the fact that there is no one to do, we must not forget that now in such a very responsible time, when some contradictions are growing at such a high political level, ukraine has not had its ambassador in poland for a month now, and it is not visible for now, who exactly will be this, and well, dragging this matter out is actually very dangerous, eh, but i wanted to comment a little more on what oleg said, indeed, in the 90s, the churches played a huge role in order to don't allow yourself to sink into some... too deep historical discussions, so that they do not turn into some kind of political revenge, but at the same time, there was also responsible politics, responsible political elites on both sides, we are talking about the first generation of solidarity in poland, in ukraine, a ukrainian national democrat who was also understood , that these are the issues that need to be restrained, and this actually was the guarantor of the fact that this did not happen in the early 90s, despite the fact that then the people who were directly witnesses, affected by this polish there was a ukrainian conflict. more obvious, and this memory

was just hotter then, but there were responsible politicians, plus the church, who were really willing to delay it, but there is another danger that is connected to our first topic, which has already been very apparent in germany, which is about these anti-immigrant narratives, which are now beginning to dominate in europe, which can and will certainly be used in poland , are already directed precisely against ukrainians, therefore very often behind... these supposedly exclusively historical discussions, in fact , the fears of the present are hidden, but will things change present-day poland, considering the fact that so many foreigners, ukrainians, have appeared here, who are supposedly close culturally, but nevertheless they are different from us, will they not be a source of threat for us, will we not lose all our jobs, and if some economic slippages will begin in poland, then unfortunately, i'm afraid it will be articulated very quickly that these problems are due to how many 5 million ukrainians there.

they are taking your bread, ours, they are making it so that the pole has nothing, has nothing to earn, so far this is a very marginal narrative in polish politics, but it is growing, by the way, this magazine with a cover seems to be the problem of the ukrainization of poland, that is, this is the topic that is already gaining momentum and which, well , in fact, in which all these historical discussions will be only a microplot, unfortunately, it can go into a more global dimension if... again, on both sides, from the side of ukraine, from the side of poland, there will be no responsible politicians who will be ready to slow it down, stop it, even possibly to the detriment of some of their own, it seemed, political interest, therefore that once again returning to tusk's position, i i am sure that the fact that tusk repeated the words of kaczyński about ukraine in europe, depending on the political agreements of political and history, hardly added anything to tusk, in fact, on the contrary, it added to the political power in which, which he simply quoted for for...

to show some additional face, so from a purely political point of view, this is a losing option for tusk himself, but if we speak more broadly for polish-ukrainian relations, it is even worse. well, here there is a more serious problem, the problem that perhaps politicians like the representatives of the same confederation are using it, it is actually the fact that poland was a mononational state throughout the post-war period, there were not many such states left in europe after the second world war. that war in poland , this happened precisely as a result of the fact that this state gathered at the yalta conference territorially and nationally, that all alienated national groups were evicted, the germans on the one hand, ukrainians were resettled there from the eastern lands, which dmytro kolyeba carelessly called ukrainian from the eastern lands of poland , where the poles and ukrainians have always been neighbors, they were resettled to the western lands, where today is just the day of commemoration of the deportation, where there were no germans, this is an operation. thousands of poles were evicted from

the eastern territories of the former poland before the war, i.e. the western territories of ukraine to poland, i.e. it was actually a constructor state, but it turned out to be mononational, jeri mandering on the territory and the poles were so used to isonationality that also because the communist party was incredibly chauvinistic, it must also be remembered, this party fought at the expense of that and maintained that she actually borrowed this nationalist narrative from the late 1940s. the vistula action one way or another, it simply legitimized the polish communist party as its own for polish society. i am not saying that this communist party organized jewish pogroms, as it was , together with the nkvd, as we now know, well , people are used to such a life, and now these millions of ukrainians are really changing poland to, if you will, pre-war poland, and that's a good question, mr. america, because it absolutely is another poland, i always wonder what a country looks like in which suddenly there are... people,

not even of a different nationality, of a different culture, i've been wondering about this, you know, since the 90s, when i first got to israel , and it would seem that jews from the soviet union came to israel. union, the same jews to these same jews, but they were russian-speaking jews who did not know hebrew and among whom millions of people could speak another language, while the israeli society at that time was hebrew-speaking, was brought up in several wars, not knew of this whole socialist narrative, people who came from the soviet union, before that there were few of them, and they immediately, they were zionist in their views, dissolved in society, and here came simply economic russian-speaking emigration, russian-cultural, russian-cultural. i asked my israeli friends, what will israel look like in the future? israel looks different than it did in the 90s. in general, i have long forgotten the israel that i knew, it simply does not exist from a socio-political point of view. and here i think, and poland as? this is also a question. i'll give you, and i'll give you,

well, and i'll give you a good example, recently, at the gym where i go and dance, there was such a discussion about ukrainians. well, there was one there. a guy who says that the ukrainians are what, there and so on, and i say to him: listen, have you noticed that a lot of people from bangladesh, from pakistan, from georgia, from armenia, even from azerbaijan, from uzbekistan, from kyrgyzstan, you have heard the police reports that we are not even able to control them, because we could we don't understand the dialects at all, and they... in fact, already in poland, ukrainians are bulging out in factories, you will see filipinos, people from kyrgyzstan, from uzbekistan, yes, you will even see people from bangladesh, from india,

even from africa, but you will not see ukrainians , ukrainians dissolved in europe, and that too, you see for the word. kobachok admitted to me, he says, well, you're right, i didn't think, i say, you'll see, there will still be a moment when you 'll make amends with ukrainians and want them to be here, because ukrainians, who wanted to work, went to polish society, studied it languages, and of course there were others, maintained their separateness, national identity, and so on and so forth, but they were not like that. different and such, it will be a shock for the poles soon, they have not yet reached that point, there are still some parties, anti-ukrainian narrative, yes, but, but it will change quickly, i guarantee you that soon you will remember my words,

they will remember you will mention that they will mention ukrainians and there will still be accounts on her facebook, ukrainians come back. in poland, er, that is, there will be many different problems here, and polish society yes, it was not ready for what we have, but yes, in fact, i always say, this is a plus for poland, because we actually have integration, social integration of ukrainians in europe, this is not ukrainization, this is integration, the same can be said , that we spolonized iceland or great britain. i don't want to, although in norway there is a little polish, the same is true in iceland, in iceland they are already thinking about making it the official language, as a second polish language, where is iceland, where is poland, where is krakow, where, where is reykjaví, and i i always give an example, you can

to say such things as if we did not exist there at all, and each of us has at least one acquaintance, as there is in ireland, in great britain. even i have, even i have acquaintances of poles in ireland, great britain, even in iceland, what are we talking about here and what are we talking about here, that's why it is like this, i have such easy optimism that our relations, of course, will be difficult , because here and there they add fuel to the fire, er, and we know who it is with different narratives, and like ours, sorry for the lack of words. people pick up on it and think it is their opinions, and these are just the opinions of people about gold teeth and a dwarf from the kremlin, who implements something for us, they take it as their own, and by the way, this can also be a lesson for ukrainian society in

the post-war future, especially when there will be a situation it is not easy in the economy, emigrants from bangladesh, from india may also appear, this is the first thing that comes to mind, central asia, remember the pre-war on a large scale, but it was not so obvious, and these people did not work in factories, i by and large account, they were engaged in trade, they may be needed here working hands, and in one of... obviously, we all perfectly understand that one of the key problems of post-war ukraine will be demographic, and obviously we can be very optimistic and hope that by creating some kind of ministry of unity we will return millions of ukrainians to ukraine, but well, it is certain that many will not return and it is certain that there will be problems with the same workplaces, the same workforce, and it is obvious that there will be a need for some serious public discussion. who, under what conditions, how we see it, what tools

we see the integration of certain people into our society, and now you know, when there are periodic discussions about multiple citizenship, until recently these discussions were more about those ukrainians from abroad who would like to settle there, to have ukrainian citizenship, now the situation has changed a little, now the specific weight, if we are talking about multiple citizenships, still shifts to those. ukrainians who are already certain that they will live somewhere abroad, and it is important for us not to lose them, and it is obvious that if we say after all, about multiple citizenship, this is also an attempt to somehow involve the people we need so that they become citizens of ukraine, and here, and therefore again, there will be an important discussion, and how we will make them citizens of ukraine, what exactly are the entry thresholds to do for them in order to call them to be considered as those who are worthy to be with... worthy of the title of citizens of ukraine. and we also have a migration policy, it is still very backward, and

we do not have an integration policy, as a phenomenon in fact, as a task, we did not have this challenge, but we will face it now, but going back a little half a step back to poland and ukraine, we still have one point that can either be the thing that will unite us or the thing that will tear us apart, among other things. its name is belarus, and the policy towards belarus in a broad sense is one of those points in which we can either take different and, let's say, competitive positions with the poles, or it will be a coordinated policy and vice versa, well alliance, let's call it that, or cooperation regarding the future of belarus, and the situation inside, well, in particular. because in poland has certain ambitions in relation

to what they see, in particular the democratic transit to belarus, and in particular the role of poland and cooperation in this, i am not talking about the demographic potential from there, plus the future market, etc., ukraine obviously has its own understanding of and how should we interact with belarus, in particular, if we look at who supports tykhanovskaya's government more, we will see poland. "if we see kalinovsky's regiment, then we will understand that this is ukraine, whether they interact, but forget about lukashenka, unfortunately, ukraine, the president of belarus is actually lukashenka, not tsykhanovskaya, they liked the politicians, and unlike the same poland or lithuania, which took the democratic opposition quite seriously, ukraine thought, no, there is lukashenko, let's think about how to negotiate with him , as usual with him, we don't talk to him and from. and accordingly, and accordingly, what will happen next, in particular

, the lukashenko factor and interaction with him, because the europeans have an open, let’s say, closed interaction with the lukashenko regime, and there is also with the neighbors, and with lithuania, they understood that in poland, in ukraine just here there are also its own channels, obviously communications with lukashenka, and in principle plus or minus we now find ourselves in the same conditions, because these are security risks, but , by the way, there is an embassy of ukraine in belarus. no, it has been closed for a long time, but the embassy of ukraine in belarus really does exist, despite the fact that there is no ambassador, the embassy is functioning, not every european country has an embassy in minsk, i think it is interesting, by the way, not even every country has a functioning embassy the csto has an embassy and communicates in... but in relation to belarus, it will also be one of

points, it seems to me, on which we can either cooperate, or which can become a bone of contention in terms of both the challenges and the view of how to overcome these challenges, and in terms of interests and potential competing interests, well, again, it is us we are talking about a situation where ukraine should be a subject in politics, until this moment, i think it will be a very long, long wait, because in any case, the process of european integration of poland is still ongoing, poland remains a subject an object, an object of ukraine, by the way, literally 30 seconds we will have a stick left, do you think this idea, which is better, will still win. drag ukraine into european structures and talk with it there, or will they still consider that the conditions that ukraine must agree to before joining the eu are necessary? i think that there will be a real politician. tusk is a person who does not succumb to emotions just like that. it was also an emotional statement from him for me, quite strange, but i think that whoever i am, he knows how

to negotiate, knows how to speak, and he also emphasizes it more than once. the challenges facing us in poland and ukraine, and he constantly, me i remember that he always loved ukraine while he was in the european union, that many poles thought he was bad, where, in fact, among others, spies from his former party was dealing with affairs and justice, that he was firmly engaged in everything, europe, ukraine, and to a lesser extent poland, and that is why his was called a german agent, among others. thank you, thank you, markosiran. political scientists and journalists from poland for participating in this part of our program, we will now take a break for a few minutes, but we will return and talk about the following important topics of our discussion. doolgit cream anesthetizes and reduces pain swelling and improves joint mobility. you can also walk with doolgit cream. dolgit is the only

yellow cream for joint pain. in september, there are discounts at nephrobank. 10% in podorozhnyk bam and oskad pharmacies. there are discounts for son bam in september. 10% in podorozhnyk pharmacies, you and savings. fm: galicia. listen to yours. because of nevid there are discounts on relief, 10% in pharmacies plantain, bam and ochad. vasyl zima's big broadcast. my name is vasyl zima, this is a big ether on the espresso tv channel. two hours of airtime, two

hours of your time. my colleagues and i will talk about the most important thing. two hours to learn about the war, about the military. frontline, component, serhiy zgurets, and what the world lives on. yuriy fizar is already with me, and it's time to talk about what happened outside of ukraine. yury, good evening, two hours to keep up with economic news. time to talk about money in wartime. oleksandr morchivka field with me and sports news. i invite yevhen pastukhov to the conversation. two hours in the company of your favorite presenters. about cultural news, alena chekchenina, our art watcher, is ready to tell, good evening. presenters who have become like relatives to many. already next to me, ready to talk about the weather for this weekend, as well. attentive guests of the studio, mustafa dzhemilov, the leader of the crimean tatar people, is in touch with us, mr. mustafa, i greet you, good day, events of the day in two hours, vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for intelligent and caring people, in the evening for espresso. tsakirzonnia, the lost homeland. the banks are hilly, the former

village of boykivske. on january 1, 1939, the village had 700.90 inhabitants, of whom 750 were ukrainians. on june 12, 1946, the ukrainian population was forcibly deported to the ssr. creative. the disappeared ukrainian village on the banks of the sian. in 1939 , 960 residents lived in the village. 900 ukrainians. in 1947, as part of the vistula operation , the residents were evicted, and the village was burned down. yablinky is an ancient ukrainian village in the mountain ranges of the western biskids. as of the 38th year, he lived in the village. 600 people, 562 of them ukrainians, some were deported to the ussr, some to northern poland, the village ceased to exist. in total , more than 800 villages and towns with a ukrainian population, almost 700 thousand ukrainians were deprived of their small homeland forever. we continue the

politclub program on the espresso tv channel. let me remind you that our guests are people's deputies of ukraine. volodymyr dmytrovych and political scientist sahakyan. we now join our conversation with denis kolesnyk, a political analyst from france. congratulations mr. denis. good evening. because we will talk about what is happening with the french far-right. and here is such a topic for political equilibrium that it is difficult to understand where to start. emmanuel macron, after the recent elections to the european parliament, where marine lippin's party, the national union, won, said that all french people have. unite to prevent the right-wing from coming to power, the far-right, the french united, the left forces and macron's party removed their candidates to prevent the victory of the far-right in... the elections in france were successful, the far-right did not pass, the left became the first force in the national assembly of france, macron's party was only second, in

third place were precisely the same ultra-rights who, before the election, were sure that they will come to power and form a government. the left, of course, claimed that now their prime minister will cooperate with the french president, if they already won the election in cooperation with the french president, but the french president literally this week appoints the right politician not in the ... right, and the right politician of prime minister michel barnier, and whose support can michel barnier hope for in the national assembly of france? in support of the same ultra-rights, with whom emmanuel fought so hard not so long ago macron, of course, is a master of great political skill, but principles are not visible behind this skill, it seems to me, i don’t know, actually behind this skill there is some kind of unprincipledness that we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, the truth does not exist. some ideological principles, it doesn’t matter, power for the sake of power, maybe we are wrong, but that’s how it is at least in the case of macron, all this is now

at the service, but of centrist france, and here is the interesting thing that he took the same tools, but he is now in the mode of playing on poly populists, actually splits them and plays with just such a ladder, sewing the political field by force, where will it lead? it is still not completely clear to me, but at today’s stages it allows him to strengthen his power, that is, you think, there is some ideological goal in it, we are calling denis, because denis, you know, i just don’t agree with oleg sahakyan, i don't think it works in favor of the centrists, i think it works precisely in the favor of the far right, because if you can count on their support that they will not send this resignation to the new government of macron, then the question arises why they had to be demonized, they become respectable politically. power in the eyes, let's, yes, let's divide, in fact, there are short-term gains and gains, there are long-term gains, but in the short-term gain

there is emmanuel macron, in the long-term gain there is the hasemblem national itself, and in the next five-year plan, i think, they will show a completely different result, a much bigger one, which will still bring them really to power next time, and for now to emmanuel macron there are almost three years left until the end of power. of his mandate and the plus-minus of michelle bania - this is the candidacy that is, in principle , quite well-balanced, which is not from the left and ultra-left, is not from the far-right, but is from the republicans, who are, in principle, natural an ally of the pro-macron party, fine, but a simple question arises, if macron was ready to enter into an alliance with... in order to prevent the far-right from coming to power, why could he not find an understanding with at least part of the left, so that the french voter would have at least the impression that they voted in vain,

you know, this is the impression, but again, yesterday we had manifestason, so people went out on the street, leftists, ultra-leftists, who said that their elections were allegedly stolen, but i'm sorry, when you still have 193, i just have numbers in front of my eyes, yes 193... you have deputies in the national assembly in the ensemble plus republicans, i am 213 and 142 in the national assembly, well you did not actually win the election, you won yes, but not enough to dictate the terms society and, in principle , political in the political spectrum of the french french politics, imman macron, in my opinion, he played very well, because de facto he remained in power. well, here , volodymyr, you know what other problem we can ignore, which the french take into account, that the french can fear the far-right and the far-left equally, and

by and large, this is the same situation as in germany, which we talked about at the beginning of our dialogue, there is the far-right party of marine le pen, there is the far-left party not unconquered france of jean-luc mélenchon, these are two parties that are known for their former ties with moscow, they both went there, that lipin, that mélenchon, these are two parties that... are essentially either against aid to ukraine or for less aid to ukraine, and they are, as it were, on different parts of the spectrum, but they are very similar, and the french voter may not want a prime minister from the left, who will enjoy the support of mélenchon, to be in power just as he does not want a prime minister who is stupid, well, i was interested to hear the opinion of our experts, indeed, if this is what macron's policy is aimed at just to strengthen the center and... and she did will probably be implemented, so for me this is an unexpected, but really interesting approach. macron, it seems to me, has set himself the task

of taking the mandate for foreign policy for... his speech at the sarbonne is a programmatic speech, in fact, and i think that in the future in a good way, in general and now everyone who likes france or not is engaged, it must be studied with a pencil, in the future i think it will be in textbooks, he took a course to prepare for war, in fact, and he now needs a mandate for foreign security policy, and he is forming a government for himself, which he's going to be good for that, and that 's good for us, and certainly, and i think we're already literally a... this fall , we're going to see macron go back to a proactive security policy again, he doesn't have a strong economy like in germany, well , the truth is in germany now as well, because merkel made the key mistake of any drug dealer, she herself got hooked on the needle of russian gas, and not only sold it, but still berlin remains the economic capital of europe, and it has always been converted into a political one, because the economy was converted well

into politics now, in the times of not post-war dividends, as it was said in britain, in the times of preparation, the pre-war times, on the contrary, security is converted into politics more profitably, and macron is turning paris into security in the capital of the european union and wants to claim leadership at the expense of this, and then this leadership is already to be converted more widely, and his calculation, judging by everything in his second term, he will not go any further, and he wants to prepare now to the maximum, in this he sees his historical legacy, and in particular from the point of view of the political aspect. he will act quite unprincipled in tools, but marginalizing both extremes and forming a security agenda for the centrists who will advocate for the protection of the republic, for a greater role, a greater role for france in the pan-european project, etc. , firstly, and from which philosophical school he is, secondly, macron was a consensus figure of the elite. of the french and

the right and the left, yes, well, the intelligentsia, who saw the threat of lepen, then the whole situation is realistic now with the parliamentary elections, well they also widely played it, that is, it is nothing new, in principle, he is simply in a more difficult situation, more filigree, but he played the same combination, another thing is that at that time hollande was the only president of france who fulfilled his pre-election program, and he because of it. .. i apologize, i was disgusted with the french, and they were ready to support him for a second term, he was supposed to go for a second term, macron was being prepared for another term, and he had to be falsely started one electoral cycle earlier, and then the whole country rallied behind him flower of france, all directors of france, all journalists, all commentators, political scientists, political technologists, there was simply an act of unity of the intelligentsia in opposition to le pen, and he came earlier, he came as a consensus, and

he was necessarily connected all the time. not with this, but with the french intelligentsia, with whom this agenda was set, and now i think that this is a certain consensus of the intelligentsia, and macron will play in this very river, and lipin is quite profitable that they will now knock out the foundation from it in the near future, effectively taking away some of that order daytime, what they actually started doing already during the election campaign, we saw how le pen started to deflate, they forced a false start, by the way. some of the things from french politics and how macron came are very interesting and important, i think, now for a better understanding of what 's going on in the united states, because the democratic team, i can see right from some of the milestones, how they are inspired by the macron campaign, how he was brought to power, and in particular, i think there will be more republican certain speakers who will say that they are ready

vote for... kamela harris, and they will act out a somewhat similar situation, well , political-technologically, the american soil is transferred with all the differences, but certain touches, let's say, inspiration from france is definitely taken there, maybe this is the recipe that we were looking for at the beginning our conversation, the fight against populism, with the ultra-right, no, no, no, this is exactly what oleg is saying, that is, perhaps, this is the strengthening of that centrist european course, which is sorely lacking, but tell me. denis, you are also so optimistic that macron will succeed to ensure my continuity, because i don't have such confidence, to be honest, looking at the situation now, actually, i probably misunderstood the format of the discussion a little bit, but less so, i would say that, first of all, it's not a mistake to translate events in france to events in the united states, the second thing i'd like to say is that we don't take into account, or we don't take into account very much, two things, it's…