who will say that they are ready to vote for kamala harris, and they will act out a somewhat similar situation, well, politically technologically transferred american soil with all the differences, but certain touches, let's say, and inspiration from france is definitely taken there, maybe this is the recipe that we were looking at the beginning of our conversation to fight populism with the ultra-right with no no, this is exactly what oleg is saying, that is, perhaps this is the strengthening of that centrist european... course, which is sorely lacking. and tell me, denys, you are also so optimistic about what is happening to macron will be able to ensure my succession, because i don't have such confidence, to be honest, looking at the current situation. actually, i probably misunderstood the format of the discussion a little, but that's okay. i would say that first, it is a mistake to translate events in france to events in the united states. the second thing i would like to say is that we are not taking into account, or we are not taking into account two things, which is... the first thing is the personal

ambitions of manuel macron and he is targeting , let's say, supranational bodies. and one more thing - this is what, let's put it this way, no matter how you twist it here, this is the end, in my opinion, of such, let's say, central, moderate forces in france? because we see that there is a need in society, there is a demand in society for ultra and... but due to the fact that a number of unresolved issues, which, let's say, were unresolved not only by president macron, but also by alland , and sarkozy, and others, this is the issue of migration, and by the way, we can even listen to the first interview of the new prime minister michel bagni, dagni, i'm sorry, he clearly said that the issue of migration, it will one of the key issues of him, his government, and...

the issue of migration is not a left-wing issue, it is a right-wing, far-right issue, so still, in my opinion, it is worth understanding that france will most likely move more to the right , the ultra-right spectrum of politicians, taking into account the banal processes that take place on the territory of france itself, as well as on the territory of the countries where france is involved, here we can also talk about africa and even about eastern europe, the eastern flank. nato, so the situation is quite difficult, but from another point of view sides, again, the figure of michel barney, she is, in my opinion, quite balanced and quite intelligent from the point of view of emmanuel macron, but you should not think that michel bagni will play, let's say, the pipe, dance to the pipe of emmanuel macron, it won't be like that, well here is another question again, we are talking about whether macron is a person capable of uniting the elites for the future or for... until he

splits these elites before the next presidential election, so why is he doing it for the future, and not just like that, this choice of the prime minister and all his steps. well look, if you look at the past, how it happened, in the past macron kind of tried to split, and he basically took part in the destruction of the republicans, he was very happy about that, he was happy about the fact that the socialist party basically disappeared, well, okay, now she's reborn a little bit, she got her 16% there, it seems like 14, but the situation is that of course he, he's a very cool student of machiavelli, it's rule, divide and rule, it's, let's say, it's followed among his, his policies from the species, from the beginning of his term in the 17th year, but also from the other side, it is necessary to understand that france needs, let's say, some new political stories. new

political forces, new political trends, and if there is a desire among the french elites, after all, to go against the grain, and somehow prevent the coming to power of the far-right, gazamlema nasional, you need some figure who will still have a right-wing influence, some political a force that will be from the right, but which will also not have an association with mamanuelle macron, because we saw this casting on prime ministers, and very few even... edouard philippe, he basically did not want to have anything to do with emmanuel macron now, because everyone understands that his power will end in 3 years. well, these are interesting moments, because we have to understand, in principle, that this situation, it creates for all the ultra-right forces, when traditional politicians, they are forced to maneuver between them and other ultra-radical forces there. this is what happens there

not only in france, actually macron, what we see, these are maneuvers between the far right and the far left, to keep some out, to keep others out, and all the political forces, they are strong enough to... fight for their interests, and, but this is a temporary solution, yes, well, when they unite, they are very strong, by the way, it must be said that they simply cannot unite with each other, melanchon and lipin, an alternative for germany and saravykhnechtalo, when they unite, they simply have a majority, actually arises electoral majority in many countries, a perfect example is italy, there the far-right have united, here are the brothers of italy. and the league and the party have already died, silvia berlusconi, force italia, and they have a majority, these are three far-right forces, they found the strength to unite, and what they became when they united, well, they became different, well, so right with the center, well, the right, they destroyed

the right center, there is no center right, they themselves became it, in fact, well, this is such a strange story, and the question always arises in my mind, how it will develop, because if eh... we saw it today, let's say, there the press conference of olaf scholz, we saw the press conference of the leaders of the alternative for germany and act as someone who makes promises on the run, now the federal chancellor is forced, as well as macron, he is running on the run of marine le pen, look at danis, in fact he is out barnier is chasing after marine le pen, when these parties, as we said in the first part of our program, try to push the migration agenda, the voter thinks, well, if they say that, then here... the right-wingers were right, they just didn't want to listen to them , them then they wanted to allow them to come to power and demonized them, in fact, all these problems they are talking about are real and serious problems. migration to france, migration to germany. the migration agenda, i said in a way that everyone understands from the left, i'm not talking about elefius

milanshon, but from the socialist party to hasamlimational, of course, let's say, the solutions, they are different, but all of them. that this problem needs to be put to an end or at least some adequate solution should be found that would satisfy not only the voters, but in general the country, because the country cannot continue to function like this when the borders are essentially such that hundreds of people come through, these people get here, i'm sorry, there is very little, let's say, very little opportunity to follow them, those who get into the system , they are also very difficult to express. there are problems with algeria, for example, with the readmission of their citizens, they refuse to accept them simply, and these people just sit in france, after 90 days, when they are in these detention centers, the door opens and they just leave, you see, and this situation, no one likes it, not even

the socialist party, the problem is that the socialists have, let's say, one vision for this problem, and the national assembly has another vision, and emmanuel macron is trying , let's say, to maneuver. and this is their ensemble trying to maneuver between the left and the right, or let's say, the ultra-left and the ultra-right, that's it, a single party, a single block that supports, let's say, the migration madness, which i would call, this is melanchon, this pro-russian melanchon, by the way, i would like to draw your attention to the fact that all our guests, from germany, from poland, from france, all talk about migration problems, they simply name different countries, some talk about syria, some say about bangladesh, someone is talking about algeria, fortunately they are not talking about ukraine, but this topic can also come up at any moment if some mélenchon wants to raise it in order to, say, find a common language somewhere in moscow. and this means that the problem of migration is becoming a serious problem

for europe, and that this history of integration, this political legacy of angela merkel, it is no longer relevant, all this has been lost to the traditional political elites. i agree with everyone, probably because, after all, this is a slightly different migration, and in the same ireland, the polish issue has not been raised for many years, conditionally, or in germany, or well, because it is the european union, and we are talking about migration migration outside the euro area is an interesting story that i think the problem is not only with the country, the problem is still with culture, with the possibility of community reintegration, indeed, poles easily integrate into the icelandic and irish environment, as well as ukrainian and polish ones. and the story is that when it's algerians, bangladesh, it's a completely different culture, and it's easy to say, it's us - it's them, and ukrainians, if they don't appear as certain ethnic groups, etc., they're still, well, it's harder for the crowd to recognize them, let's say times, and

accordingly, even from the point of view of political technology, if mélenchon comes out and says, these ukrainians are migrants, they will say, yes, i have syrians, i have algerians, that i do not see those ukrainians, even going out into the street, well, somewhere... there is probably, and the borders were opened to the west for us, our westerners, in particular because of the fact that russia is constantly playing out the narrative that the syrians were standing in line. here the ukrainians were let out of the queue and told: you come in, that’s all for you, and you will go through the full procedure, and because no matter what, but on us, in particular, the brand of a white person, the brand of europeans, etc., in his and the good, in particular in this case beneficial for us beneficial for us indeed, yes please denis, by the way, i wanted from you to ask, you are talking about algerian emigration, but there was more algerian emigration in the 60s than now, not only that, and it did not change anything in france then, do you remember a huge number of people, others, well they were supporters of france, but they

were people of arab origin, very often muslim, well, there were different ones, there were kharks, for example, you can talk about them, of course, but there were others, but i would like to say a little about something else, here was a remark about ukrainians and just about france that mélenchon himself, he cannot say what is there ukrainians interfere and so on, because ukrainians seem to be the number of people in france in... in europe, this is the smallest number of refugees who came to france, if at the beginning of the war there were, it seems, 140 thousand or 120 00, now if i i'm not mistaken, 60 kopecks, that's less than in belgium, so the number, it's quite funny actually for france, and ukrainian refugees, they don't pose any problem here, if we talk about general migration, also france is not a country where ukrainians are migrating, ukrainians... mainly to the czech republic, to poland, first of all, to countries where there is a close culture, where there is a close language, where there is a familiar language, there a part

migrates to england and so on, so i would not say that the issue of ukrainians can be strongly instrumentalize, yes, the issue of aid to ukraine can be instrumentalized, and it has already been instrumentalized, but here is the issue of ukrainians in france, well, it seems to me that this is a rather marginal issue, which even in statistics, it looks rather marginal, and we can say that the french ultra-right no longer margi do not externalize the issue. aid to ukraine, that it now remains exclusively ultra-left, that le pen is, shall we say, more pro-ukrainian than melanchot. i would say that lupin is more pro-ukrainian than she was in 2022, i would say it like that, for example, but there is a general consensus, there is an understanding that russia is the aggressor and that ukraine still needs to be helped. there is no consensus on how to help ukraine. if, for example, emmanuel macron, at some point he pedaled the issue there,... sending mirages to ukraine, then, for example, the same marine

lupine, let's put it this way, she would not want french weapons to enter ukraine, so it seems that the most truly radical person who has remained on these radical positions of not helping ukraine, is such a melanchon. well, it is interesting that here is marin lipen, she went through such a revolution, she was absolutely committed to ukrainian politics. at one time and maintained ties with the ukrainian association svoboda, then she suddenly became completely pro-putin, although it was understood that this would break her traditional ties with freedom, let's say, it was difficult for the polish right to get an alliance with it in this situation, well, this is an evolution that resembles the evolution of orbán in the same way, that is, also an anti-soviet anti-russian politician who, who was carried so far in both in the volume the kremlin does, and the question arises, how do these people change in general, that... we can make them continue to change to our side, and not to moscow's side, well, obviously, this is a strengthening

of their own subjectivity, that is , the stronger ukraine, the more ukraine succeeds, the more it will force everyone others to focus on ukraine, as long as we do not have this subjectivity, or we will have a weak subjectivity, well, there is no point in betting on ukraine, there is no point in somehow losing something by investing in ukraine, which is to... . he is weak, i agree, but i might even just touch on a slightly different aspect of this, the weaker russia is, the more they will look in the direction of ukraine, because russia looked strong to them in the 2000s and later, and now it is no longer so. , denise, that the stronger russia is, the weaker it is ukraine, and the stronger ukraine is, i would say simply what ukraine can offer, as of today, nothing, and that's it for now. will not offer anything, but live in their

corruption stories, in the villas for the heads of the tcc in spain, that is why it remains, will remain a kind of marginal, if ukraine is ever able to offer something, and i think, in fact, the values ​​of ukraine, ukrainians, they after all, are more in line with the values ​​that marine lupin proposes to promote than the values ​​that he promotes. and if ukraine ever can do something to offer, then i think, other folding. and here we return to what i said, but that ukraine can update european political narratives. but can you somehow refresh this european project, if it becomes a subject, a subject, and not a country that helps everyone simply because it fights with russia for its sovereignty, then you can close your eyes to ukrainian corruption, to that , that ukraine, even when fighting for its sovereignty, can ignore the advice of allies, the fact that it is quiet here parliamentary democracy and

freedom of speech are dismantled there, because it is so beneficial for those people who are in the same high offices that in europe... cause an association with corruption, that's the whole problem, because i really think that denitz is absolutely right, when he says that in order to be a subject, you need to offer something real, and you need to be a country that does not differ in its values ​​from other european countries, not just a sick person in europe, let it be sick not because of its own fault, but because who became victims of russian aggression, but a healthy state that understands that it declares european values... because it needs to gain membership in the european union or nato, security protection, or not because without a declaration of these values ​​you simply will not be helped in confrontation with russia, and because these are really the values ​​that society shares, because a worthless society, it is doomed, not even to defeat, to integrate with other worthless societies there with some moscow and

beijing, we will now interrupt, too, literally for a few minutes, thanks denis. charioteer, who was in this part of our program, and literally in a few minutes we will sum up our today's such a long conversation. and what do you think about lakal fix ? so, lacquer fix is ​​your choice. the latest issue of krania magazine is about the heroes who gave their lives for the freedom of ukraine. how does the country honor its defenders? how are loved ones notified of a loss? how does society choose a place for military cemeteries? difficult questions that cannot

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let's write a story of victory. details on the official pages of the sbu. we continue, now we can say, at the moment we are finishing the politclub program on the espresso tv channel with deputies of the verkhovna rada of ukraine, historian volodymyr vyatrovych and political scientist olek sahakyan. and in principle, it seems to me that this is our conversation with experts from various european countries, it showed that there is a real problem on which. indeed, radical movements can speculate quite calmly that there is a real problem of migration, people even if they talk about it subconsciously, it escapes from them as a part of their life, because it is... everyday life that they face, and they see that the current government is not capable of solving this problem, that it has no approaches, and then, of course, when these people may not vote, of course for

the far-right, but the voter is an ordinary person who sees that there is no solution, he is looking for new forces, well, by the way, this is the same story as in ukraine in 2019, as to end the war, well , no way, but if someone tells you i can, then this person will definitely be voted for, here another one is added in europe... uh, this everyday life, this problem of immigration, this is a silent problem, that is, it was not discussed in society, that is, it was considered a movieton, it was considered absolutely some kind of radical discourse and, well , intolerance, that is, it was impossible to talk about these topics in general, and indeed those who took up this topic were, well, very radical, very unsympathetic to the majority of politicians, but they were the only ones who talked about it, now that this problem has acquired on such a scale that... other politicians cannot remain silent about it, it really added some additional political value to those politicians who were the first to talk about it, even without taking into account the fact that they

were talking about these problems, but they remember , that they spoke first, so they were noisier, so they, so they are perhaps smarter than those who, perhaps, entering this discussion later, are ready to offer something really more effective, but this discussion is actually very important for us as well , for ukrainians, we talked about the issues that which... will be faced by post-war ukraine, the issue of the demographic crisis, as well as the issue of migration, so in some things it is important for us to look at what europe did wrong, what mistakes it made in matters of immigration, how, in what way this multiculturalism collapsed , so as not to repeat them, because we also have a lot, even among politicians, among experts, of those people who are now voicing narratives related to the same multiculturalism, which... well , it is absolutely not relevant anywhere in europe , they want to sell it to us as, excuse me, some european secondhand, that it is still relevant here, let's do as germany did in the 90s, well, we see

what it led to in germany, so we have a unique opportunity here, due to that we are lagging behind, to learn and not to repeat these mistakes, but at the same time, well, we already talked about this today, on the one hand, we should learn something from europe, on the other hand, acquire subjectivity and try a little and teach europe. in the first place, well, i think that one of the topics with which we can go to europe and teach europe is what russia is and what we should do with russia, it seems to me that after all we have a unique experience, understanding, experience steeped in terrible suffering , that we can be reinterpreters of what russia really is, why it threatens not only ukraine, but also europe, that we can be not only reinterpreters of russia, but we can be, to a certain extent, reinterpreters of europe as well , because they, looking at us, can get to know themselves better, and what they push into themselves. in europe, we

now have a whole range of options for how the situation can develop. there is the greek option, syriza and chrysiavgi, then new democracy came because they proved that they are incapable. we have italy. yes, we have italy, where the right has united and moved more to the center. we have a situation. france, where macron divides the reigns, took and aprikin the first and the second, in fact, in order to strengthen his center. europe is looking for an answer to this question, but it is obvious that it cannot continue to simply silence the problems faced by society maybe and the ukrainian case of the 19th year also shows here that when intellectual elites lose their sense of nerve, what society lives on, and they do not provide a vision. in complex, simple issues in general, then the society still revolts, and then it still throws it out, and it happens in europe, that they tried to keep quiet for a long time and

say that there are no migrants, and there is no problem of doychaban, which trains just stop in the field, do not go, are late, etc., that this is not the old europe that it was, then this reality catches up, and it catches up then people, but they are brought out by romantics, the tsinni take advantage of this. but they create this agenda, to which then politicians are forced to respond and in particular to wake up the national intelligentsia, which feels responsible, and then they can intercept this arrived what macron is doing, take it and further structure it, give answers, etc., so it seems to me , that here will be a very interesting situation, when we will see in europe at the same time different trajectories at different speeds, which will go, and ukraine just might be, with on the one hand, those who... are learning, because we are lagging behind in many things, but on the other hand, we and that small ship that was carried far out to sea, we meet the first waves, we shoot back at the enemy, repair on

the go and have... . and keep their course, and therefore, while their ships are standing in the harbor, they are just shaking a little, then here, i apologize, all the rats are already sick, they have already thrown all of them off the ship, and we already understand this challenge completely, we feel, we are already finding answers to him, well, such a european laboratory, yes, but where to look for such a one the fate of the frontiers, well there is another very important point here, i believe that in any case the country should take its chances, even when some political forces from abroad can... it may not like it or those people who vote for these political ones, oleg mentioned the greek party syriza, which was a classic ultra-left political force, when it came to power, everyone was in awe, because they, they were going to abandon the euro and even tried to negotiate with russia, russia had no idea that they would leave the euro zone to help, they were going to default on their debts to european banks and

thus actually put them under. sad own obligations to the european union was such a complete disaster and everyone watched this disaster. on the other hand, there was a problem on which greek conservatives and greek socialists speculated for decades, related to the republic of macedonia. ugh. and the fact that they blocked its accession to nato, explaining it as a historical problem. here we have the wrong name, you want the legacy of macedonia greek, and you can get it, and you can do that without any eu and no nato, and this is the solution to the historical issue of no eu, it turned out that for the syriza party, this entire historical situation has no meaning at all, because it is an ultra-left party, which in general does not live in the time of alexander the great, unlike conservatives and socialists for whom this was the number one issue, i remember how the late prime minister of greece andreas papandreou gathered huge rallies in thessaloniki, we will protect macedonia and

won the elections. in conservatives who are not fought vigorously with the small former yugoslav republic, and it turned out that it was at this time that the prime minister of the then greek alexis tsipros, i think that this is his main historical merit in general, he removed this issue, the republic of macedonia became the republic of north macedonia, and it joined nato, and thus we can in principle hope that the republic of north macedonia will not be part of the russian sphere of influence in the balkans, there are problems there, we see, they are problems now. with bulgaria, i dream to be in bulgaria forces came to power that will not be so interested in history, and they also stopped bothering macedonia about its historical heritage and language, and it turns out that sometimes when non-traditional political forces come to power, when the ultra-left or even the ultra-right, who live their own, in their own agenda, then it allows other countries

to solve the problems that seemed. absolutely unable to solve for many decades, i never believed in principle that greece would withdraw its questions to macedonia, while macedonia is called macedonia, is it northern or not northern, that is a completely different question, it was just called macedonia, all greek politicians said the word macedonia is taboo, you will not be macedonia, or you will not be anywhere, and here it turned out that it can be solved, i think that ukraine needs to learn this lesson, even if in other countries... they are afraid of certain political trends, if these political trends will benefit us, tactically, we should use them, and we should receive more from them, even from those who seem political fringes, therefore, in principle, let volodymyr zelenskyy meet with geert wilders, if it helps us, here is an important point that i would like to emphasize, thank you to the guests for this studio, we had

a lot of historians on the air here. volodymyr yatrovych of ukraine and political scientist olek sahakyan, we talked about how political trends in europe are changing in the politclub program, which vitaly portnikov conducted for you today, i wish you all friends a calm evening and a good night, no flights, and victory and peace to you , come on good luck, goodbye, tsokyrzonnia is a lost homeland. the banks of horishna are the former village of boykiv. on january 1, 1939 , 790 people lived in the village, 750 of them ukrainians. on june 12, 1946, the ukrainian population was forcibly deported to the ussr. a creative, disappeared ukrainian village on the banks of the sian. in 1939 , 960 residents lived in the village.