but president zelenskyi is also a representative of the populist camp, so he easily finds a common language with people, regardless, well , it’s hard to call him a populist, it’s hard to call him, it’s hard to call him right or left, but he’s like that, you know, a pure populist, what kind of country is that populist, yes, that is, we have a special ukrainian populism, which is devoid of any additional ideological colors and burdens, yes, but nevertheless it gives him the opportunity to find a common language with these populists, and in fact this is a risk for ukraine, because instead of that you talk about this agenda for populist forces, it's also a form of conformism, collaborationism, i'd say political , if you're not in the studio, but if you're in the studio, then conformism, okay, and i think that this the populist agenda is not so much about conformism, but the ukrainian, let's say, in relation to the european one, and you know, i'll just translate it to a personal story, again with... friends,

analysts from europe, when we were talking about the situation over beers, and says: you know, they were just sitting among themselves, playing, they, and what would create a party that would take power, and i say, well, okay, in the plan, here are the ideological and so on, the foundations, and in short, i caught myself thinking that they are completely serious in thinking in absolutely populist categories about how to mold under... the wettest dreams of, let's say, their societies, a party with which to come to power, and why, and we will come and do everything completely differently, but this was not the case in europe before, if people came to power , they fulfilled their promises, because it changed, and this is what russia uses, a significant part, why i said about melons in italy, why in greece about syriza, why we can come up with others, the last wave, let's say, this is what we are observing now, just as we go to the ninth shaft and we are somewhere on the fifth . the sixth wave, perhaps, if not

the fourth, but the first, the first waves were already in europe, the approach of this, and it is rising from the rooster to the north, if we look now at the scandinavian countries, then in general this problem is not so acute there yet, but it is already being cursed, and if we take greece, italy, then there are even countries where already in the same greece , democracy is not in power, and it seems to me that the problem here lies precisely in this desire. to take power at any price, and overnight, without strategies, without any ideological values ​​and other restraints, and this populist cream, it gives this radicalization, that is why both the right and the left often agree in their positions, because they are not the right and not the left, in fact, they simply are, and this , by the way, is the story of putin, this is the story of putin, power for the sake of power, that is, putin, who begins as an allegedly liberal politician, who takes it in a completely different direction, that is, it is absolute... how did orbán appear, well, you know

, he was one of the most european among all europeans, and tell me, alexander, can the german elected punish the ruling forces for the fact that they just fulfill their promises or not , that's how it may look, you keep your promises, but the voter doesn't like that these promises are fulfilled, the same thing happens, i think it 's very difficult to talk about promises here, because what if the traffic light. on the so-called coalition, which consists of social democrats, the current one chancellor scholze of the greens and free democrats came to power, in fact there were two topics that could be talked about, the first is that after the crisis with the coronavirus, germany was not among the countries that were quite strict in terms of introducing lockdowns and so on and the like, and... and there was a certain

fatigue from the ruling party, and accordingly the voters at that time had already punished the christian democrats, who are actually in the opposition, but became sharply popular again, because they are not in power, and social democrats, the social democrats led the current coalition only because they had a stock of, relatively speaking, lost votes, nevertheless, it was so high that they still had more of them, and they were able to join them well, let's take two more parties into the coalition, which usually used to be below the ten percent barrier, this time they got a little more, and that's how we formed a traffic light coalition, the germans punished even then, but not for unfulfilled promises, and due to the fact that there was a crisis, which greatly changed the course of life. and to which

there were hardly any correct answers, because if there had not been a lockdown, perhaps many more germans would have died, because germany is a relatively... relatively speaking, demographically an old nation, just like italy, fortunately in germany - there was no repeat of such a deadly wave as it once was in italy, maybe this lockdown saved many germans from death, and maybe not, it’s very difficult for me to say this, i’m definitely not an epidemiologist who can speak here with some confidence, but many to the germans it very, very badly broke life, someone lost business. someone is just not on vacation, something between us has become a little connection, everyone remembers, yes please, i hope that i can be heard again or not, heard, great, and i hope that you have heard that the life

of many the germans were in fact, if not broken, then greatly changed, and actually, not knowing for what, where to put their frustration, they decided. when to say goodbye to the authorities, and this time we, not us, but the germans, experienced another crisis, it is absolutely incomparable to what they are experiencing now ukrainians as a result of russia's aggressive war, but one way or another, this war also affected the germans, due to russia's refusal to supply gas in germany, to germany, many german industrial giants actually lost their survival model. and to competitiveness, and because of this, many germans lose their jobs, huge inflation, again, huge not by ukrainian standards, by german standards, ah, people who used to be able to afford two vacations, conditions on conditional majorca, now can only one vacation per

year, again, i understand that for ukrainians it's not like nothing, it's generally a chic, beautiful life, but for germans, who have been used to living for decades and it's wonderful, knowing in advance what... they will do in two years , because everything is so stable, they know exactly what it will cost, how much the products will cost in the supermarket even next year, suddenly everything changed, and it was a big shock, and now, as we see, the existing authorities are being punished for it, hardly whether the executive power would have answers to the questions inflation, on the issue of preserving the short competitiveness of german industry, because all the foundations for these problems. they were laid in the previous decades by mother merkel, who now admits no guilt and no responsibility for the catastrophe that the ukrainians and the germans are experiencing now in a certain way, actually laid these basements without building the northern streams and

without diversifying, in fact models economic growth of germany, but it is a long story, i think we can talk about it for hours. well, by the way, this is what you said, mr. volodymyr, about the fact that the agenda has run out precisely because all social opportunities have actually been built, and people are now reacting harshly, even to the slightest relaxation of the level which, which was in euroka for ten years, looking for simple answers to complex solutions, and here it is precisely the perfect soil for the population, again, regardless of the type of ultra-left or ultra-right, who can really... promise something completely different and, and i would also like respond to what we talked in our previous conversation about mistrust of politicians, and again here russia is in a very winning situation, its propaganda, which systematically introduces

society's expectations that everyone is lying, the truth does not exist, therefore, well, there is no point in sticking to some truth, because you will lose, only because you will limit yourself in this way, and this applies... both to voters and, unfortunately, to politicians who are beginning to understand that it is cheaper to lie in order to win than to stick to some line of their own, and then later for not for her to answer, and unfortunately, again, this is grist to the mill of the same putin. i completely agree, and i would even say that putin is here simply because of russian historical actions, the ability to instrumentalize everything, this is one of the models of the russian state in general, its survival. they instrumentalize sports, the church, diplomats, anything, and they were the first to grasp just the metamodern trend , not even post-truth, but also their propaganda , the possibility of lying straight to the face, absolutely and their propaganda said that okay, then why like in 20 carry the century with you

picture of the world, ideal, some kind of communist, capitalist, etc., she is afraid of doubts, let's make propaganda doubt, listen, i have to tell you that i remember how it started, once and doubt propaganda. i was at the session of the verkhovna rada of the russian federation, when there were just conflicts between the chairman of the verkhovna rada ruslan khazbulatov and the government of yehor gaidar. and ruslan khazbelatov said a famous thing, he said that it is boys in... short pants who rule russia, a famous aphorism, and when ruslan khazbelato representatives of the government said, well, how can you talk about the government, you are the head of the parliament, i didn't say that, said ruslan khazbatov, how could i say such a thing, and here they included a recording of the interview, a recording where the voice of ruslan khasbullatov sits ruslan khazbulatov and speaks in the session hall, they turned on the recording, ugh, and we all hear these words, and journalists and deputies, boys in short pants, well, we knew that he was saying it, we heard it from him personally, and it was absolutely amazing. speaks calmly, i didn't say such a thing, fake news, oh, oh, he didn't even know such a thing

words, but this russian analogue of fake news, how can you prove it, and this is their classic and it is in their culture, so i doubt what they did, they help this destructive process, they erode not physical, but social distance, not you , which is imaginary, but real social distance and destroy the key matter without which any republic is impossible, trust, absolutely, they destroy trust. and then they say, it doesn't matter, the crucified boy does not appear at the moment when they said about him, at the moment when someone said he was not there, they say, great, come to us, let's talk with you, and why do you say a boy, and why not a girl, and maria peterivna says, a girl, but someone, destroyed by a ukrainian plane, and the fact that the plane was not hit, then it does not matter, but the plane was already there full of corpses, etc., and they say, why is your truth greater than ours, and thereby they make propaganda into doubt, doubt is promoted by propaganda, but... this is not about the reason, they only take advantage of the new social

conditions that have been created and they are just russia, going ahead as a destructive force. now the question is what healthy forces can offer the metamodern era as a change in ideology, as certain visions, and what can be the ideological, let's call it, basis for this european centrism, and european intellectuals and not only are facing this challenge. and precisely because of the inability to provide such a product, populism actually grows, behind populism are simply cynics who come to power, do absolutely everything they want, and there are no safeguards against them, well, by the way, you can ask about this very topic in the last two minutes , you can ask at mr. oleksandr, before saying goodbye to him, do europeans in principle have any understanding of how to deal with this, or will they simply watch how such forces come to power. no sound please i think yes yes

i hope it's a little better and i at least for now i can talk about germany because about other european countries i'm still not so closely following unfortunately , but in germany at least now there is no visible answer, and this is partly due, or rather, they are trying really, really, really hard to answer that. to grope, but so far it doesn't look very sure, because there are two points why it doesn't work, the first is that the far-right and the far-left resort to very radical extreme rhetoric, one of the problems in germany, which , which is really important now, this is migration, and it was not something that was taboo to talk about before, but it was very difficult to talk about it, because after all, a... the topic of migration is very sensitive and to receive accusations of racism or mi phobia, xenophobia, others

possible phobias, it was very easy, but one way or another, large migration flows, when hundreds of thousands of people with a different cultural background and a different understanding of what is good, what is bad and so on and so on, suddenly enter ukraine, always lead to certain problems . alternative. germany uses this very clearly, and we can now see that other parties are beginning to understand that migration is a problem, they are starting to be tougher and talk about the fact that, after all, it is necessary to very quickly deport those who violates the laws and so on and so on, but as always, when we see a unique original and a not very interesting fake, people always choose the original, in fact, such efforts ... playing on this rhetoric is only grist to the mill of the same alternative for germany or of the sarah

wagen kneft union, who saddled this issue first, and accordingly the typical voter sees this and says: well, they started first, so why will i vote for those who pick up this rhetoric later, and the second issue that the radical right and left much better learned, me this seems to be something that in europe, at least in germany for sure, is generally gradual. slowly, but yes, one way or another, the social, so-called social capital is being eroded, it is visible in the fact that in the churches now we see much less members of the congregation who are members of these churches. as organizations, and this is exactly what happens in parallel with many parties, the traditional parties, the so-called old parties, lose their members, fewer people join them, and the old members, relatively speaking, simply die, and thus this party is becoming more and more elitist, that is , many germans begin to feel that the politicians do not represent them, and they

will be angry because of this, but the problem is that the germans themselves do not want to join the party. they build politics and, accordingly, their perception of politics on the basis of television and social networks, and social networks are actually one of the keys to the success of the same alternative to germany, the alternativeists immediately understood that they would not be able to reach the germans with conventional methods, because traditional journalists do not perceive them very well, and in principle they say all kinds of bullshit that is very easy to refute, but saying bullshit... on facebook and tiktok is much easier, but we know it in ukrainian, which means that as far as it can be answered. thank you, thank you, mr. oleksandr, we are now back on the air after a short break. in september there are discounts on amiksin ic. 10% in

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every week, the saturday political club helps to understand the processes. what is happening in ukraine and the world? vitaly portnikov, khrystyna yatskiv, andriy smoliy and invited experts based on facts give their assessment and forecast of the development of events. if you want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow, watch the saturday politics club every saturday on espresso. we continue the politclub program on telespresso, vitaly portykov is with you, we are discussing with our guests, this is volodymyr vytrovych, people's deputy of ukraine, oleg. political scientists, co-founder of the national platform for stability and cohesion, we talk with them about how the political landscape of europe is changing, the europe that we so long for, now we

will devote some time to the polish far-right, we will join our conversation with the political scientist and journalist marik, we welcome you to our studio, congratulations, congratulations, congratulations, good, glory to ukraine, glory to the heroes, oleg sahakyan was just saying that in of poland and liberals. and there are moderate leftists and moderate rightists, not even moderate rightists, because the party of law and justice can be said to be an ultra-right party, it positions itself in the european parliament, they are all on the side of ukraine. the government of law and justice helped ukraine, the president of law and justice is a strict defender of ukrainian positions in europe, but this does not interfere there, let's say the confederation party, it is a coalition of such grouped parties, in fact. block all aid to ukraine, they organized a blockade of polish, the polish-ukrainian border, and no one tried to really oppose them, neither the government of law

and justice, nor the government of the civil platform, they advocate with ukrainophobic slogans, and their popularity is growing, it is an amazing thing that, in principle, there is a lot of support for ukraine in polish society , on the other hand, there is a party that is a parasite on all the instincts, on the historical, even on the instincts of the poles. and popularized during this war, which the poles should perceive as dangerous for themselves, you know, it is such a political one at the moment minority, but let's be honest, a very proactive minority that imposes its own agenda, and you absolutely correctly noted that there is no clear, decisive reaction from them, well, it would seem that there are no clear political opponents from the liberal side, not even in the matter of ... with these peasant protests, it all dragged on a lot, even though the reformation of the government had already taken place, nor in the matter of these, again,

surrounding historical-political discussions, as for me, these historical-political discussions are important precisely because this is a certain one the fissure through which the confederation expands its influence, imposes its political narrative on other political forces, it absolutely imposed this political narrative. in the party of law and justice, which, in principle , also had its own ideological traditions from the days of solidarity, sufficiently pro-ukrainian, even those that would speak of some contacts between the polish nationalist movement and the ukrainian nationalist movement, but then it all turned into such, well frankly the rise of anti-ukrainian sentiments, and now, unfortunately, we see what is after the reformatting of power in poland, this historical-political... narrative of the confederation is picked up by donald tusk, picked up by radosław sikorski, who also repeats, well, in fact , the phrases of the confederation in this matter, and

maybe, you know, someone will think that it is not so important, because this is only a matter of history, but no, i'm sure that this is only the beginning of this, so far, not so influential political force, starting to impose its own political agenda, and instead of some clear decisive one. the position will have some political power, so let's do it anyway let's put these historical discussions, which have no meaning now in the current political situation, on a pause, we see that in fact all politicians, leading politicians of poland pick them up, the main thing is that he seems to be the only one who said that no, let's do it anyway we will, and then the historians, first to europe and then the historical one, this was the only decisive voice, what do you think the position will be, i would say the winning position of donald tusk, that first the historical agreements, then his...

in the edition confederation, and of course that to donald tusk and shikorski, then i believe that there are no better friends in poland for ukraine today, like these people, because many actions show that they really admire ukraine, and the words, well, kuleby were also quite controversial and they could not leave it like that, but it is not like that... the federation pretends that it is so very powerful, everyone counts with it, and who bribes and narratives, on the contrary, the confederation

is good news for all of us. there will now be, as they say, a great divorce in the confederation, there love ends, as in all rights such extreme parties, there everyone wants to be a fuhrer, and soon we will see huge sparks, for us this is great news, because putin's defeat, well, i could say the hundredth bet on the wrong horse, and... and about donald tusk , he is actually gathering votes across the entire political spectrum, and this statement, i think, is unnecessary and not useful, both for poland and for ukraine, so it was actually aimed at uh, to say that he such a super polish patriot, let's not forget that both the confederation and peace constantly consider him

pro-german i would say, even an agency that works in favor of germany, and finally andrzej duda, the president of poland, but i directly named donald tusk, a person who cooperates with the russian fsb against poland, including, but that is, here for everything i would push the truth very bad. high political struggle, as not always in ukraine , everyone understands that this is actually happening in poland. by the way, if we talk about the public mood, this is also such an interesting topic that i always think about. here in poland the always obvious irritation was caused by the german union of exiles. a fairly authoritative organization in germany, which is close to the christian democratic union, which has always presented serious, i would say historical, economic, and property

claims to poland. leaders. this organization, in principle, did not hide that they wanted a certain historical revenge, well, donald tusk, by the way, was born in these territories, which are the territory of this revenge for this union, he is from gdańsk, that is, the former dancevo, and together with this, the poles who understand how such motives and such organizations are dangerous for german-polish cooperation, they are ready to accept such attitudes in their own society, that's how strange it is, practically the same, that is, in... the same attitude towards the ukrainian and polish historical heritage, which concerns precisely those the lands from which the poles were actually expelled by the soviet authorities, what is said there is a fact, they are very similar to the attitude of the germans, who, by the way, were also expelled from these territories by the same red army, as well as from the territories of today's galicia and volhynia, the rhetoric, the narratives of the union of exiles

and... the so-called krasovyaks in poland, they are essentially completely similar, and the only thing that seems to me is that the influence of the kresovyaks in the polish political system is much more powerful, that is, they really despite some political changes in poland, they leave behind, preserve the influences that, it seems to me, took shape politically somewhere back in the early 2000s and continue to remain quite strong in polish politics. it was said by our expert that it is good that putin put on confederation, this is a horse that will not go far, but you have to understand that putin never bets on one horse, i am sure that in poland, too, this is far from the only horse he bet on, and we need more to understand that once again, for putin , horses are just as important, so to speak figuratively, but what they carry with them, that is,

these narratives. the dependence of politics on history is actually beautiful for putin, and when these narratives for various reasons that we try to explain, to understand, to justify, are picked up even by politicians who are far from putin, such as sikorsky and tusk, this is putin’s victory, that is, what, why in fact, why is this all being done, this is not done by putin for the victory of the confederation, that is, for him, the confederation or any other radical force is simply a tool, and if that narrative fits. others, at least partially, this rust of doubt, which we talked about in our previous part, if at least partially it will be picked up by other politicians, that's great, that is, if it, if it begins to grow in this environment, moreover, this narrative there by the mouth of a tusk, it is much more effective than and legitimate than that of some confederate.