the most important thing is not so much the horses, to put it figuratively, but what they carry with them, and these narratives of the dependence of politics on history, this is actually great for putin, and when these narratives, for various reasons that we try to explain, understand, to justify, picked up even by politicians far from putin, such as sikorsky and tusk, this is putin's victory, that is, why in fact, why is this all being done, it is not being done by putin for the victory of the confederation, that is, for... part , if only partially it catches on which we talked about in our previous by other politicians, it is wonderful, that is, if it, if it starts to grow in this environment, moreover, this this narrative there by tusk's mouth, it is much more effective than and legitimate than in any particular everyone knows that he is a lunatic,

there is nothing to listen to him, but oleg, maybe the rulers are really wrong when they say that in ukraine they do not really imagine the mood in polish society, and the truth must be said that ukrainians are always not critical enough of their own attitude to historical events, especially in times of war, in such trials one really does not want to talk about one's own negative role in history, this characterizes any people, not only ukrainians, but now is just such a moment, even i would say that it is not just critical or not critical look at yourself, in us... the textbook on the history of literature is written according to the principle of getting fat and rebelling, we don't have any kind of subject in general that exists except for rebelling or complaining, it is not there, and the state subject is completely absent, we have a history of lands , on which there is a state ukraine, who belonged somewhere, were somewhere, etc., and only individual figures, and the figures who did, lamented, rebelled, lamented, rebelled, well, relatively speaking, bohdan khmelnytskyi, affected the family. mazepa, it's the

same, we'll see the princes - the same. with us , everything is due to personalities and simply the territory that passed. and, accordingly, we simply do not have our own historical narrative, and because of this, we often pretend that we are simply good, everything that is bad means that someone else, well, who is bad, that moskal, for example, well here with poland it is difficult to say as if there is no muscovite, although in some moments we also have muscovite. he is not wrong, we have a common problem with the poles in this, they often made the jews guilty of problems, in territories that somehow knew the common polish-ukrainian history, but relations with poland seem to me to be hostage to several things, the first - the 90s, the role of the church, john paul ii, etc., and accordingly there was a clear effort of the elite, first of all the church, this... plays a significant role in poland in order

to build a common future, reconciliation, mutual forgiveness and close the historical page the church turned its head artificially, the turning of the head is limited to 90° by 180, so that it does not turn back into history, but only looks back and looks forward. the second point is the economy. we were in a situation where there was no economic gap before... after the collapse of the soviet union, it was the other way around, then there was a plus-minus, and now we have a big gap in poland, and accordingly it also fuels polish pride, and this and the history itself, which is also present in german-polish relations to a certain extent, and accordingly the third moment, in this economic growth, in the fact that now the elites no longer stand on the ground that was necessary when they were going through their path of european integration, development, poland is the only country in europe that will fly by... almost without noticing the crisis of the eighth

year , because their economy did not slow down, they were just on the trend of growth, they have a whole generation that lived a little better and better and better every year, but all this prosperity was not connected with ukraine, and accordingly, if we now take our connections economic, our broader connections that are connected with financial and economic activity, there is almost no ukraine there, if there were these conscious and capitalized converters. in political, social capital, etc., economic ties, then it would be unprofitable to quarrel, then the farmers would be blocked by others and told not to block the arteries, we lose money because of that, where the farmers themselves would not go out, because they would understand, that this is a question of the pocket, polish culture is quite pragmatic, and accordingly, where there is a zloty, there, in particular, history is not completely forgotten, but it is a little advances because the pragmatism of polish. culture allowed

the poles to survive, or to go through all the historical tragedies that were on their way, and that's why it seems to me that these are the three challenges at the moment, the church, economic imbalance and lack of integration. in our connections, the absence of ukraine as part of the solution for the poles, they will hurt us even further, not only in the populist trend, but also in the fact that poland's successes will now be built from the position of looking from the top down to ukraine, and already in 5 , in 10 years even the surnames of some politicians will change, but we we will have these problems in a hypertrophied state and not only in the marginal right and left radical movement, because we simply have roads with different speeds and go slightly in different directions. mr. merik, what do you think, right oleg soakyan, when he talks about the fact that we may have an even more serious exacerbation of this, i would say polemics in the future, if we do not take some decisive actions now, of course yes, i agree here that we will have

a very dynamic process here, which will quarrel us, so in fact, we will not be in other positions, so that first just take such a historical factor here, it will be a shirt closer to the body, my shirt is closer to me, and each nation has its own historical memory, ukrainians have theirs, poles have theirs, and here, of course , there can be no agreement, the germans also have theirs, and it is not at all similar to the polish historical memory, it is the first, the second is about economic relations, i remember that in the last two years a lot has changed in that mess. ukrainians work for the polish economy in poland, many companies, this is the first time in two years that a polish pension fund, there is no other minus, with a very negative demographic, i would say demographic crisis in poland, very few children are born, as in the whole of europe,

in fact, and thanks to ukrainian companies and ukrainian taxpayers, who turned out to be polish taxpayers, because they conduct business in poland, there is no in germany, they are just revanchists and everything that is ukrainian, for them, almost, causes very, very unpleasant emotions, but, but look, there are many people who, in whom something has changed, i remember the first months

of the war , when there was no polish government was prepared and could not be prepared for what happened on... the polish -ukrainian border, one must understand that what happened there is simply the position of polish society, which came to the border and took people to their homes, , of the self-governing authorities, which provided money to the firefighters and other services to carry this aid to the border, er, and it was the decision of the very foot of society, and not from above... the order came and then they started going to the border, there were many spontaneous, there are many non-governmental organizations, but it is necessary in ukraine with us to communicate with polish society, and it seems to me that ukraine does not communicate there, and our government does not even communicate with

our society, and i do not speak pro-ukrainian at all, because imagine that until today the polish government does not have a press secretary . there is no such person, the main public relations officer of ukraine, and when tusk is asked why, he says: there is no need, because every minister is a bit of a public relations person, and he has to give reports, it is not his job to sit, during the information war, to do only that, we , as journalists, as political scientists we understand very well, then some information flies around the world four times, like some press service or something. will decide, if you write something there, then something will scratch you, but here there is no one to do that at all, there is no one to communicate, to direct these info politicians, that is, we are really walking like - like a blind man walking through a minefield, and this is how

it looks today. in poland, internal politics, anyway, in fact , polish-ukrainian relations, and it must be said frankly about the fact that... there is one more thing to do, well, it is so polish and ukrainian society looks like they are always changing the state and there is absolutely nothing to do, we must not forget that now is such a very responsible time, when some... contradictions are growing at such a high political level, ukraine has not had its ambassador for months of poland, and it is not yet clear who exactly will be it, and here the prolongation of this matter is actually very dangerous, eh, but i wanted to reflect a little more on what oleg said, indeed, in the 90s , the churches played a huge role in order not to allow to plunge into some too deep historical discussions, so that they do not turn into some kind of political revenge, but at the same time there was a responsibility to fly. responsible political elites on both sides, we are talking about the first generation of solidarity in poland, in ukraine, ukrainian national democrats, who

also understood that these are the issues that need to be restrained, and this actually was a guarantee that no it happened in the early 90s, despite the fact that then people who directly witnessed the victims from this polish-ukrainian conflict , there was many times more, obviously, and this memory was just a joke then, but there were responsible politicians plus the church, who were really ready to delay it, but there is another danger... the one that relates to our first topic, which has already manifested itself very much in germany, we are talking about these anti-immigrant narratives that are now beginning to dominate in europe, which can and will certainly be used in poland, are already directed precisely against ukrainians, so very often behind these allegedly exclusively historical discussions, in fact , the fears of the present are hidden, but will the current poland change? considering the fact that there are so many foreigners, ukrainians, who are supposedly close culturally, but nevertheless, they are different from us, will they not

be a source of threat for us, will we not lose all our jobs, and if some economic slippage in poland, unfortunately, i am afraid it will be articulated very quickly that these problems are due to how many 5 million ukrainians are there, they are taking your bread, ours, they are making it so that the poles do not has nothing to make money from, so far this is a very marginal narrative in... politics, but it is growing, by the way, it seems that this otsya, this magazine with the cover is the problem of the ukrainization of poland, that is, this is the topic that is already gaining momentum and which, well, in fact, in which all these historical discussions will be only a microplot, unfortunately, it can go into a more global dimension, if again on both sides, from the side of ukraine, from the side of poland, there are no responsible politicians who are ready it is to slow down, to stop, even perhaps to the detriment of one's own, it would seem political interest, because once again, returning to tusk's position, i am sure that the fact that tusk

repeated kaczyński's words about ukraine in europe, in dependence on the political agreements of political and history, hardly added anything to tusk in reality, on the contrary, it added to the political power, in which he simply quoted in order to show some additional face, so from a purely political point of view, this is a losing option for tusk himself, but speaking more... for the polish-ukrainian relations are even worse, but here there is a more serious problem, the problem that may be used by such politicians as the representatives of the same confederation, it is actually the fact that poland was a mononational state throughout the post-war period, there are not many such states in europe at all remained after the second world war, this happened in poland precisely because this state gathered at the yalto conference territorially, nationally, when all the others were settled. dmytro kolieba is a ukrainian from the eastern

lands of poland, where poles have always been neighbors, ukrainians, they were resettled to the western lands, where today is the day of commemoration of the deportation where there were no germans, this is the vistula operation, the poles were evicted from the eastern territories of the former poland before the war, that is, these are the western territories of ukraine to poland. that is, it was actually such a construction state, but it turned out to be mononational, jeri mandering, and the poles were so used to this mononationality, also because the communist party was incredibly chauvinistic, this must also be remembered, this party fought at the expense of that and maintained that she took the position, essentially borrowed this nationalist narrative, but the end of the 40s, the action went one way or another, she simply legitimized the polish communist party as her own for polish society, for a part of all polish society , of course. this is revenge, i am not saying that this communist party organized jewish pogroms, like this, together with the nkvd, as we now

know, well, people are used to such a life, and now these millions of ukrainians are really changing poland into if you want pre-war, and that's a good question, mr. america, because this is a completely different poland, i always wonder what a country looks like, in which millions of people suddenly appear, not even of a different nationality, of a different culture, i wonder about this, you know, with 90s, when i first got to israel. and it would seem that jews from the soviet union came to israel, the same jews to these same jews, but they were russian-speaking jews who did not know hebrew, who among themselves, millions of people could ... speak another language at that time, as israeli society at that time was eurythic-speaking, was brought up in several wars, did not know all this socialist narrative, people who came from the soviet union, before that there were few of them, and they immediately, they were zionists, dissolved in society by their views, and here came simply economic russian-speaking emigration, cultural, russian-cultural, that's how i asked my israeli friends, and what will

israel look like in the future, israel looks different than the 90s, i'm that israel in general. which i knew long ago forgot it simply doesn’t exist from a socio-political point of view, but i think, and poland is like, that’s also a question, i’ll give you, and i’ll give you, uh, and i’ll give you a good example, after all , the sports club i go to and dance there was such a discussion about the ukrainians, uh, well, there was one guy there who said, what about the ukrainians, what are they, and so on, and i say to him: listen, did you notice? that a lot of people from bangladesh, from pakistan, from georgia, from armenia, even from azerbaijan, from uzbekistan, from kyrgyzstan are appearing in poland lately, eh, have you heard police reports that we are not even able to control them, because we don't understand their languages ​​and dialects at all, and they actually push out ukrainians, already in poland, at

factories, to see filipinos, people from kyrgyzstan. from uzbekistan, even, even to see people from bangladesh, from india, even from africa, but not to see ukrainians anymore, ukrainians have dissolved in europe, and even that one, you see for a word, admitted to me, says, well, you are right, i did not think , i say, you'll see, there will still be a moment when now it's just... with the ukrainians and you'll want them to be here, because ukrainians wanted to work, went to polish society, learned languages, and of course there were others, they maintained their individuality , national identity and so on and so on, but they were not so different and like that, for the poles it

will be a shock soon, they are not yet we have reached, while there is still... the party's anti-ukrainian narrative, yes, but, but it will change quickly, i guarantee you that soon you will remember my words, they will remember, you will remember that they will remember the ukrainians and they will still be on facebook accounts appear, return ukrainians to poland, er, so there will be a lot of different problems, and the polish society, yes, it... was not ready for what we have, but yes, actually, i always say, this is a plus for poland, because we actually have integration, social integration of ukrainians in europe, this is not ukrainization, this is integration, we can also say that we have spolonized iceland or great britain or ireland, i don't want

the polish language to be used in norway, the same is true in iceland, in iceland they already think or not. you can say such things as if we did not exist there at all, but each of us does at least one acquaintance, as in ireland, great britain or iceland, i even have, even i have acquaintances of poles in ireland, great britain, even in iceland, what are we talking about here and what are we talking about, then... that's why there is such i have such a slight optimism about our relations, of course it will be difficult, because here and there they add fuel to the fire, and we know who exactly is who with different narratives, and like ours, sorry for the word, short-tempered people pick up on this and

i think that it is theirs thoughts, and these are just people's thoughts about gold teeth and a dwarf from the kremlin. they accept it as their own, well, by the way, this can also be a lesson for ukrainian society in the post-war future, especially when the situation is not easy in the economy, migrants from bangladesh and india may also appear, this is the first thing you think about from the countries of central asia, remember the full-scale war, yes, but it was not so obvious, and these people did not work in factories, i think by and large, they were engaged in... this is trade, labor hands may be needed here, and in one with, obviously, we all perfectly understand that one of the key problems of post-war ukraine will be demographic, and obviously we can be very optimistic. and hope that by creating some unity ministry we will return millions of ukrainians to ukraine, but it is certain that very

many will not return, and it is certain that there will be problems with the same workplaces, the same workforce, and it is obvious that there will be a need for some serious public discussion, who, under what conditions, how we see it, what tools of integration of certain people, we see in our... and now you know when they continue periodic discussions about multiple citizenship, then until recently these discussions were more about those ukrainians from abroad who would like to stay there, to have ukrainian citizenship, now the situation has changed a little, now the specific weight, if we are talking about multiple citizenship, everything after all, it goes to those ukrainians who are already certain that they will live somewhere abroad, and it is important for us not to lose them, and it is obvious that if we are talking about multiple citizenships again. this is also an attempt to somehow involve the people we need for for them to become citizens of ukraine, and here and there again it will be an important discussion, and how we will make them citizens

of ukraine, what exactly are the entry thresholds we will make for them, so that we can call them and consider them as those who are worthy of the title , worthy of the title of citizens of ukraine. we also have a migration policy, which is still very backward, as well as politics. we do not have gradations as a phenomenon, in fact, as a task, we did not have this challenge, and now we will face it, but going back a little half a step back to poland, ukraine, we still have one point, which can be either what will unite us or what will divide us, among others, its name belarus, and the policy towards belarus in a broad sense, it is one of those who... in which we can either engage with the poles the positions are different and, let's say, competitive, or it will be a coordinated policy and vice versa, well, alliance, let's call it

that, or cooperation regarding the future of belarus, and the situation inside, and why this can cause discord, you can find out, because in poland they have certain ambitions of their own in relation to how they see, in particular , democratic. in belarus and in particular the role poland and cooperation in this, i am not talking about the demographic potential from there, plus the future market, etc., ukraine obviously has its own understanding of how we should interact with belarus, in particular, if we look at who supports the government of tykhanovskaya more, we will see poland, if we see kalinovsky's regiment, then we will understand that this is ukraine, whether they interact, well, very linguistically. about lukashenka, unfortunately, ukraine, the president of belarus is actually lukashenka .

placed on the democratic opposition, ukraine believed, no, well, there is lukashenko, let's make an agreement, we will not talk to him, and we will know, and what will happen, accordingly, what will happen next, in particular, the lukashenko factor and interaction with him, because... europeans have unopened, let's say, closed interaction with the lukashenka regime, and their neighbors and lithuania have it, and we understand that poland does as well. ukraine obviously has its own channels of communication with lukashenka right here, and in principle, plus or minus, we now find ourselves in the same conditions, because these are security risks, but the embassy of ukraine in belarus has, by the way, i don't know if it is functioning, because, because it is, and by the way, recently they threatened that they left the temporary chargé d'affaires, the belarusian embassy. in ukraine, it seems to me, there is none, it has been closed for a long time, but the embassy of ukraine in belarus really does exist, despite the fact that there is no ambassador, the embassy is functioning, i think, not every european country has

an embassy in minsk, but i think it is interesting , by the way, now not even every csto country has an embassy and communicates in minsk, but with regard to belarus, this will also be one of the points, i think, on which we can either cooperate, or... which can become a bone of contention in terms of both the challenges and the view of how to overcome these challenges, and with from the point of view of interests and potential competition of interests, well, again, we are talking about a situation where ukraine should be a subject in politics, until that moment, i think it will be a very long long wait, because in any case , while the process of european integration of poland is underway, poland remains a subject of ukraine objects, by the way, already literally 30 seconds to... leave the piles america, do you think this idea will still win, that it is better to drag ukraine into the european structure and talk with it there, or will they still consider , that conditions are needed that ukraine must agree to

. before entering the eu, i think that there will be a realpolitik, tusk is a person who does not give in to emotions just like that, it was also an emotional statement for me, quite strange, but i think that who i am who, he knows how to negotiate, knows how to speak, and he too, more than once emphasizes the challenges that poland and ukraine face before us, and he constantly, i recall, he constantly loved ukraine. being in the european union, which many poles thought was bad for him, where, among others, he actually lists business and justice from the former ruling party, that he firmly deals with everything, europe, ukraine, and not enough poland, and that is why he was called a german agent, among others. thank you, thank you to mark sirant, a political scientist and journalist from poland, for participating in this part of our program, we will now take a break for just a few minutes, but let's come back and talk about the following.

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on espresso. verdict with serhiy rudenko from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, more more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world , the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the bad day with the help of a phone survey, turn on and be included, verdict with serhiy rudenko , from tuesday to friday from 20 to 22. two hours to learn about the war and what the world is about, two hours to keep up with economic news and sports news, two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become likeable to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio, the events of the day for two hours, a big broadcast of vasyl zima, a project for smart and caring people, in the evening for

espresso. we continue the politclub program on the espresso tv channel, i would like to remind you that our guests are people's deputy of ukraine volodymyr dmytrovych and political scientist oleksaakyan, we are now joining our conversation with a political analyst from france, denis kolesnyk. congratulations mr. denis. good evening, because we're going to talk about what's happening with the french far-right, and it's generally such a topic for political equilibrium that it 's generally difficult to understand what... from what to begin emmanuel macron after the recent elections to the european parliament, where marine lippen's party, the national union, won, said that all french people should unite to prevent the right-wing, the far-right, from coming to power. the french united, the left-wing forces and macron's party removed their candidates in order to prevent the victory of the far-right in the elections in france, they succeeded, the far-right did not pass, the left became the first force in the national.

in the french assembly, macron's party is only second to third.