are slowly growing in this sense, and this is really a very big problem, i also saw the best sociology that has been in recent times, this was done by the maruszewski center, and unfortunately, especially among young poles, the attitude towards ukrainians in general and towards those ukrainians who are in poland, it may not be radical, but it is getting worse, there are explanations as to whether the poles will be able to make a decision on assistance in return, well, there may be some soft ones, but those that mr. skirka spoke about are definitely not, i don't see for it now space, nor in polish politics, and not in any other country of the european union, and last but not least, in order for us to start a wide wave there, we need to first understand what ukrainians live in, we don't have a systematic communication. we do not know about

fears, not about dreams, well, that is, we do not know , what we see is sociology, it is not our sociology, here are the germans, by the way, what they show me, they do a lot, but what we do, do we know the systemic situation in germany, as well as in poland, this is a question well, what will we offer in the sense, in the sense of return, it must be some kind of positive picture for the world, that is, and what, that is, security? and ukraine is a country of opportunities, what opportunities, what kind of ukraine, when and so on, well , time still flies, that is, the further people are there, the further the children integrate, the further they get used to it, that's why i , what i can say based on german sociology in different cities, somewhere from 60 to 80% of ukrainians are not going to return in the short term. perspective, that

doesn't mean they won't be able to accept it the decision once depends on changes in circumstances, but in the short term, if the circumstances do not change, they do not even consider such an option, but first you need to understand what, what people live with, ukrainians are actually very fragmented, once vladyka borys godziak started a fantastic project, which i later joined, and the meaning was something... ukrainians live, who do they trust, who do they trust, you know, whom ukrainians most distrust abroad, and this is very clear to ukrainians, not the state, not even the embassy, ​​which some love, they don't trust themselves, and this was the case with those in france, it was with those in germany, and in fact, it is global ukrainianism itself, it is quite fragmented, we need to put it together now... in the sense that it

was a real force, this is a task with which no one yet knows how, in principle, not what to cope with, but to approach it, this is a fundamental challenge, in my opinion. mr. myroslav, those ukrainians who left after 2022, how much will they integrate into the ukrainian diaspora of poland? can we talk about two communities, a community polish ukrainians, let's say, native inhabitants of these... er, this state, who were always there in the territories where they were born, or were resettled after the vistula in the so-called new territory of poland, but this is such a traditional ukrainian diaspora, known good, and these ukrainians who arrived in recent years, especially after 2022, are they two communities or one community, after all, are they three or four communities or one community, we... saw this when after 24, after 22 ,

after february 24, when the entire ukrainian community in poland, and it was a national minority, and these migrant workers who were here began to help ukraine on a scale that no one expected, it was, it absolutely united us all, it does not mean that the cities are the same , i would say that these differences remain, but... and they will continue, because it has come to us, if you look to walk the streets of warsaw, you will hear that here people speak russian or ukrainian , in addition to obviously polish , and most people who speak russian - this ukrainians, but these are ukrainians of eastern eastern ukraine, for whom the ukrainian language is not the language of first use, and this community differs from others in that, this vi...

the community also differs in that each of us has slightly different problems now, because those people who are refugees after february 24, well , they experienced a tragedy, a refugee tragedy, that is, they left. everything they had, they took the children, came here and found them in another world, those people who were there before february 24, they were already here, quite often they received those they helped their relatives, acquaintances, neighbors, the fact that there was no humanitarian crisis in poland due to the appearance of such a gigantic number of ukrainian refugees, it is also thanks to the fact that there were a lot of migrants here who simply accepted their, their relatives, acquaintances and so on, obviously this does not mean that they were not accepted and the poles were also accepted, that is another thing, but i want to say one thing, there are a lot of us, a very bad job here in poland was done by a statement that once minister kuleba once said that ukrainians are abroad tsiugulants, that this is such a worst category of people,

that it is unknown who is such, so i want to say that ukrainians abroad, including ukrainians in poland, are citizens of ukraine, and they should be looked at as citizens. ukrainians abroad who potentially have the right, the opportunity and should be returned to ukraine, that is, there is no point in insulting or scaring them, on the contrary, you need to conduct a dialogue, a conversation, they are not, they are not children of separate custody, who you have separate custody, these are mature people, but with whom, who must be seen and understood, and they help a lot, i know how much ukrainian business, which later appeared here after february 24, helps. ukraine, the armed forces of ukraine. it is, it is help, which goes in hundreds of millions of gold. uh, and as someone says to them that you dodge, there, hide and so on, this offends those people, they do not go to the front for many reasons, but not in every state everyone should go

to the front, but these people have the right to be themselves here and work for ukraine. and i think we need to change the perspective. i wouldn't agreed with what mr. pavlo said about ukraine not leading. there is a dialogue, there are channels of the ukrainian community in poland, as well as that dialogue established between the ukrainian government and the community of refugees and migrants, we communicated together on various levels with representatives of ukrainian ministries, we had quite close cooperation with the then vice-prime minister, mrs. iryna veryshchuk , who has been in contact with us here quite a lot on the issue of ukrainian education, formed the policy of the ukrainian government, this is a very current matter in front of the two. three weeks, but this one the process has been going on for more than a year, maybe thank you, thank you, ukrainian politicians come to us here, ukrainian diplomats come to us and want to talk, but also another matter, we understand that the ukrainian state now has a much more serious problem, i.e. the war, than that we should be engaged here, and we can

take care of ourselves, we do not need any special measures there, so that we feel not abandoned here, we help ukraine very much and we will do it regardless. to talk about it once, or about those migrants, or some ukrainian politicians spoke about those refugees. thank you, mr. myroslav, myroslav skirka, head of the association of ukrainians in poland, but it seems to me that this is a very important topic that has just been raised, it's not even about dmytro's statement, it's about the fact that ukrainian politicians are currently working with exactly the audience that is here in ukraine, and they will be elected by both parties, this is such a political focus. are you sure? what some ukrainian politicians think about it now, no no, i think it's a good question, i'm not sure, for example, secondly, how will the next elections be built, and they will be unique, they will be neither

ordinary nor extraordinary, and there will be a separate unique law for them, and what mr. myroslav says, i wholeheartedly support, the only problem is that ours. .. communication in communities, it is with those who want to communicate, and there is always a proactive minority who wants to communicate, and people of any diaspora, and 100%, the only question is that if we talk about even a hypothetical our desire to return at least a large part of people, i'm not talking about all of them, or even more, but significant, then we have to talk to everyone, not those who are proactive and... by the way, a significant part of the proactive ones are those who are there constantly, the same in germany, the same in other countries, what i see, just last week i had two interesting conversations, in some countries, the russian special services, well, the fact that they are recruiting

people there, it is clear there, who will return, some of them will be arrested, they have always recruited, today one of such people became a member of the council of the federation of federal assemblies of russia. but it is done as a group, not on some personal realities, and i am... absolutely sure, and from two countries, my friends, they are already telling me about it, that someone will be deliberately lit later, and in this way draw lines of tension and some kind of fragmentation in society with those who return , and so part of our society, there as politicians tend to see those who are abroad as someone else, this does not mean that this is definitely a rejection, but... nevertheless, we and them, we are here and they are there ,

there is such a line if it will be played along with and deliberately supported by moscow, and it will to be supported 100%, this is definitely a strategic and systemic story, then we need some kind of answer, and a systemic answer is also desirable, this is a very, very difficult story, and in general, ukraine is now. polish relations, what we see, there are surges in polish, in polish media and political reality, when for the first time the opposition there and the government there have merged into their own, and exactly, and lo, you follow polish politics, and very, well like me, i know for sure that it is not a matter of dmytro ko's statement, in general, what dima said is in general, the 15th reality, it belongs to the media and political. but they found an issue around which they can say the same thing, it is

the presidential election next year, but it is even more, and i can say on camera that now poland has some kind of desire to keep ukraine and us in the field of its fundamental, fundamental interests and lead us by the hand, and there is a fear that we will work with someone else in europe on the principle... in matters of european integration, so what is expected of us in ukrainian-polish relations there are a lot of creative solutions, and we are talking about this, by the way, i will be in frankivsk on thursday-friday with polish experts, we will talk about a lot of things there, but in terms of what will happen in our relations, well, still did not start, because they will not block european integration, but... someone will definitely want these historical questions, and well

, they are not historical, they are actually political, since history is history, politics is politics to be used, and you and i, like no other we know because we started this one history, when pis came to power, so yes, before that, this history was not a part of each other, it was so obvious, but the history is openly and... we did not politicize, and the way mr. myroslav gave the numbers, how we increased polish gdp, yes, i saw figures from polish sociologists that the politicization of our historical issues brings from one percent to one and a half percent in the parliamentary elections, imagine 1.5% on the scale of poland, that’s a break in the brain, and again, i don’t i do not point the finger at anyone and do not blame, but it is so mythical. mythological, i would say that the union of the authorities and the opposition around our issues

worries me very, very, very, very much. we will now take a break for a few minutes, but please stay with us and we will continue our discussion with the diplomat, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2014-2019 pavlo klimkin, so we will see you in just a few minutes. in beresnev, there are 15% discounts on sudokrem in the psyllanyk bam and oskad pharmacies. when you sleep on an uneven surface, the spine takes the wrong position, because you you can't feel energetic in the morning and productive during the day, but with toper matrik you will forget that you are sleeping on an imperfect surface. order a matrik topper for comfortable sleep at an affordable price. more and more ukrainian families choose topper matryk, which comes in convenient packaging. which is quite easy to remove, it can be used within a day after removing the factory film. a unique

cover, in which you can hide your topper, will become not only a new interior item, but also quite a functional thing. you can it can be used both when resting and while working at home, the toper itself is quite easy to take out and spread out. toper from the factory means faster production, one to three days and prompt delivery. delivery is made. throughout ukraine within two to five working days. with us, you know what you're buying, not choosing a set of features. matrik is your universal thin mattress for uneven surfaces. at an affordable price. order topper matryk from one of the country's largest manufacturers of orthopedic mattresses and furniture, and also with a 20% discount. almost any sofa, even a small one, will become a comfortable sleeping place. spread out the sofa, spread the topper matrik and enjoy a flat sleeping surface. joints are almost

always an integral part of folding sofas. simply spread the topper metric to get a flat bed without joints. and inequalities. buy topper matrix. join the families who have already forgotten what the inconvenience of sleeping on sofa beds is. orthopedic air foam, cover with winter-summer function and an affordable price thanks to the order from the manufacturer. here are three benefits for which ukrainians choose topper matryk. call or follow the qr code and order right now. there are discounts on relief from september. 10% in podoro pharmacies. september discounts on reza stol 10% in pharmacies podorozhnyk bam and oshkad vasyl's big broadcast in winter two hours of airtime two hours of your time 2 hours

to learn about the war and what the world is like two hours to keep up with economic news. and sports news for two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become familiar to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio, events of the day two hours, a big broadcast of vasyl zima, a project for smart and caring people, at dinner at espresso. every week, the saturday political club helps to understand the processes taking place in ukraine and the world. vitaly portnikov, khrystyna yatskiv, andriy smoliy and invited experts. based on facts give their assessment and forecast of the development of events, want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow, watch the saturday politics club every saturday on espresso.

we continue the politclub program on the spresso tv channel. vitaly portnikov and a diplomat are with you the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2014-2019, pavlo klimkin, we are discussing the foreign policy priorities of ukraine, we will discuss what is happening with the ukrainian diaspora now, how the situation is changing with ukrainian migrants in europe, in general in the west, now we will add rostseslav sukenyk to our conversation, chairman of the association of ukrainian organizations in germany, congratulations, mr. rostislav, good evening, mr. vitaly, mr. pavle, well... you know, this is such an interesting thing, mr. rostislav, we discussed these elections in quite some detail in thuringia and saxony, of course , such results may not be repeated there in brandenburg, it may be similar, more or less, but there are many ukrainian migrants in the east of germany, not in the west, and anyway,

even their presence there, it is not changes, let's say, public opinion in favor of ukraine. how does this happen? probably so, well, history probably doesn't teach the germans anything. er, here it is probably a matter of perception, let’s say this, surprisingly, at the beginning of the war, the germans completely opened up in the positive sense of the word, and accepted ukrainians, both in the east and in the in the west, that is, when the war began, it was, well, i... i wouldn't say that it was completely unexpected, but nevertheless, the germans accepted ukrainians very openly. with all that, of course, there were those who were not determined to support ukraine, but most of us take this into account. today, with the war, we

are talking about, probably, this understanding of exhaustion from the ukrainian war and... no forces use this element for their political preferences, and in this field, probably the populist, let's say so, the right and the left used it the best, here is an interesting moment how much do you think, these are all the new statements of the federal chancellor, his so peaceful plans that russia should be invited to the peace summit, well, this is... in principle a small sensation, but when the federal kansta also says that he will not allow the use of german weapons for strikes in the deep, how are they related to these political changes? it is a derivative of two things. the first thing you 're talking about is domestic politics, which is very complicated, and the second is the frantic whining of german

business, and a large part of it, it's not just misses, she is nostalgic for discounted russian gas. who saw the last report of mr. mario draghi, the former president of the european central bank, but by the way. the latest statistics for germany, and in germany the situation is the most difficult, because there are very cool such traditional, productions, but such high-tech, digitalization is not their strong point, and what you asked is absolutely, in germany, facts, a recession has actually started and everyone in germany is totally scared of immigrants. the germans are too many for the first time years, as long as i remember, they put checkpoints on all borders, not only poland there, but including the dutch, the swiss

and so on, which never happened at all, but for showing activity to what the right-wing populists, the left , there it is actually difficult to understand who is right-wing, who is left-wing, the wagenknech party is there, there are left-wing populists and right-wingers, they join them, and immigration is simply treated there, treated in chat rooms, treated in social networks, so this factor of immigration, on the contrary, significant roasting of german society has a very negative effect, and what we see, and with our help, yes, of course, somehow they will try to bring her back there with 50 billion, but when will it be? but for next year , it is less than this year, because if you look directly at the budget, the queen almost fell apart when she discussed the budget, they have a deficit of 27 billion,

this has not happened for a long time, that is, there are really new problems, but they are looking for a way out of these problems in order to sweat and somehow lower the rates and not raise them, please tell me , mr. rostoslav, but the ukrainians are dumb... those who are citizens, they are such an electoral a unit that german politicians pay attention to, because we see that when there is an association of jewish organizations in germany they make a statement, it may not be numerous, but it immediately causes a reaction from german politicians, and it always forces them, i would say, especially in the pre-election period, to react quite nervously to any claims against them, and what about ukrainian organizations, eh , before the start of a large-scale war, ukrainian emigration, or, let's say, the number of ukrainians, or even, let's say, immigrants from ukraine, was somewhere around a quarter,

well, a quarter of a million, eh, and they did not have a big, big influence on the election results, although we were in contact, we expressed our opinions, we made our reservation, they took it into account, but a big there was no influence today with, let's say, with the big war, with the number of people who came as protection seekers, probably precisely from the point of view of whether they will influence the elections, it certainly does not, but this topic is important, and this topic will be in the elections already in the next one, on next fall, it will be very... important among the people who will be elected to the german bundestag, there are already ukrainians, that is, those who today will occupy, well

, be delegated in these parties and will actually apply for a place in the parliament, well, this is interesting, yes we can generally use this global ukrainianness as political factors, especially in europe, perhaps, well, we have what we can, but for this we need... to, as i said, understand who lives what and reach the wrong proactive minority, and this minority is the same not 30%, in fact there are 3-4-5%, but to a significant number of ukrainians, who are largely fragmented, and secondly, i absolutely agree with mr. rostislav, but ukraine has now started playing in the negative for many german... politicians , and the reason is enough simple: when we talk about 250 thousand of our ukrainians with german passports, more than 3 million speak russian. and

this is a real electoral force, in some federal states, in some districts, it is in fact, and russian-speaking germans who came from kazakhstan and came from other countries, that is, in one berlin, when i was the ambassador, mr. rostislav will correct me with new statistics, 250,000, mr. rostislav, then it was more than 10 years ago, i think it is more now, and the fact that... ukrainians have now appeared in state parliaments, in particular in berlin lantz, this is of course a very cool story, and it makes us all happy, but this does not mean that we are there, neither in terms of number, well, in terms of activity, we are there, we want to dream, we can break this russian wave, which is actively supported there by crazy money, former stasi employees there and those who are now being bought wholesale and...retail,

that's why actually german policy is a very, very big challenge for us, do we ukrainians have a systemic influence on this policy, i absolutely agree with mr. rostislav, we don't have it yet, and on the contrary, the russian wave, it is starting to turn there, if not into a tsunami, then into a real wave, which is seriously hindering us, well, the logic of today's not... government, it is better to reassure everyone by saying that somehow we will manage everything there, that everything is really well, we will not raise the rates and to blame the lack of discounted russian gas and business support there for what is happening, and it has already started, we see it both in the public and in social networks, this is history, it is called sweating, and

sweating will have to be done, this year is a rabbit hole, i am almost sure , i can't say, there may be black swans, but it's sweating, and it means that their maneuver, it's absolutely narrowed, and for germany, to be completely honest, i only hope for american leadership, because germany, as a rule, tries to go in fairways of the united states, although now scholz began to say what he had never said before, he says: well, well, let the others there allow long-range shots, but we do not allow german weapons anyway, that is , even here he begins to play, to play my fiddle, so what we can do with our communities, with our active, proactive parts there, it's a very cool story, but a big electoral impact so far, i totally agree here, we unfortunately

don't have, say, mr. rossislav? here it is the question that we also asked mr. myroslav skirka, the head of the ukrainian association in poland, in principle, how do you consider the community that was in germany before the year 22 and the community that appeared after the year 29 , of the 22nd year, these are integrated communities, or are they after all two different parts of people who do not always even have such close contact with each other, no, they do have contact, but it must be separated. what was before, what happened after, that is, before there were people who, let's say, the ukrainian community, let's call it that, it consisted of the post-war part, that is, those people who, after the end of the second world war, could not return, for obvious reasons, for the reasons that when they returned, they ended up in siberia, so they stayed here,

accordingly... they did not have the opportunity, in there was no way for them to return. the second part - let's take somewhere those people who were able to leave with the collapse of the soviet union, before the beginning of the collapse of the soviet union, and during the already independent ukraine, they left there in small doses. these were conscious people who left because they could not agree, or saw some other, greater prospect of being abroad themselves. realize more, the people who came at the beginning of the war, they came under compulsion, that is, they did not intend to, perhaps, leave there, probably a small part who dreamed, but could not, but most of them were people who were forced to move here, plus an extremely large openness played an effect and this is protection, the so-called paragraph 24 collective.