therefore, the bigger projects that we want to create one day are such as the jewish community has a birthright program, where every child has the right, well, up to a certain age, to go to israel and work there for three or four weeks with the funds of the fund , we would like to do something similar in ukraine, in ukraine with ukraine, you know, i don't really like these analogies, no, no, because it means that there is already some big diaspora that lives its own independent life and it lives . parallel to the state, just like the jewish state the community has always lived, and here are the people, we are jews of ethnic origin, we have come to terms with it, there is a national state, there is a large diaspora in the world, it lives, functions, spends money to preserve identity in the countries of residence, and there is israel, in which people there made a choice at the expense of their own state and its protection, you are drawing such a model for ukraine right in front of my eyes, i am not saying that it is not an unrealistic model, i just do not like them internally, i do not draw, i show specifically... what, what works today, how

it works today, it’s not a new concept, it ’s already working like that, we’ve been doing everything since ukraine regained its independence for the past 32 years, we’ve been living like this, and that’s why we’re 33, well, we ’ve become much more now, and we we know that the resources of the state are impossible to do all this, so i tell our communities that do not expect that someone will organize it for you, that someone will build you a cultural center or a church. will organize a school, money will not come from kyiv, from lviv, on the contrary , you will give money for kyiv, absolutely, yes, but therefore, we must teach all ukrainians, whether they live in ukraine or abroad, to be self-sacrificing, to understand that the way, how, how, how to organize a ukrainian school, no one will do it, get together with your friends, and form a ukrainian school, contact the world congress of ukrainians, we will give you a package on how to do it, how to organize it, help with all the materials, we are preparing together with the ministry. education and

with other scientific institutions, we will give you everything, you just organize, and this is how we call our communities, and so communities are being built, they are then stronger, when someone gives money, it is a bit of a knock, but when the ukrainian community gathers and says, let's collect funds, build youth, buy and build a youth organization and some kind of housing where our children can camp, these organizations will be successful, and they will be positive, and they will be creative, and if someone... gives you money, you will do according to the order, well, we often talk about the fact that there is a certain fatigue from the russian-ukrainian war in the west, but ukrainian communities are tired from the war? i don't think it's fatigue, but that, unfortunately, life is going back to business as usual, that is, people feel, well, let's not go to the sea there once, they said, let's maybe this year we will transfer this money to ukraine, they are already a little bit...

to return to their normal daily life, well, maybe i won't go to this demonstration, because we, we are going to the country somewhere, for example, you know, we have to, it is my responsibility, my role is, to constantly encourage them, encourage them and tell them what i saw on the front lines, in pokrovsk, in dobropyll, what is it that ukraine needs, and we cannot give up, we must actively act as we did 2.5 years ago. well, it is also important to understand how ukrainian communities can work with western governments here, to what extent they are able to overcome this general fatigue from the war and this, i would say, the mood of the western elites regarding the fact that this is, well, such a long conflict , it is necessary to live with this conflict again, accept it as reality and work further. it is our responsibility to vitaliy that we present every day interests of ukraine. we are every ukrainian who lives abroad or was born in... or has

a drop of ukrainian blood, should be a lawyer, a diplomat, for the interests of ukraine every day, and we call for it, once, i say this very often to my own, i say, in the diaspora, i say, one day your granddaughter will ask, grandmother, grandfather, what you did during the great war for independence to help ukraine win, and everyone must think about it today, how they will answer it, and how they should help, and advocacy work is... critical, so i urge even those who are stateless, the fact that they are stateless does not prevent them from joining any political process, whether it is in the states or in germany, that they join some political party, start working there , to find, to know how, how, how these processes work, and then, and even those who have citizenship, that they went into politics, and that they went to the very top of society in business, so that they could help finance our community and ukraine, in education, in literature, in art,

that is, we have to stay away from everything and just live, we have a responsibility to protect ukraine, and only we can do it, we cannot hope that... one ambassador in this country can do all this, but by the way, about working with other communities, people, perhaps, who are really not ukrainians, but who in one way or another can be connected with this war, i was very interested in how kamela harris during the debate with donald trump, quite unexpectedly speaking about war in ukraine, turned to the polish one community of pennsylvania, not to ukrainian, but specifically to polish, you see, mr. president, that if all these recipes of yours... are carried out, then poland, their homeland , could be next in putin's war, and i've always wondered, to what extent it is possible to generalize the ukrainian efforts, let's say, with the efforts of the polish communities, with the efforts of the jewish communities, grammarians are interested in the fact that there is no war at all in central

europe, so that this war does not inflame this crisis situation in the middle east as well, to what extent in general possible this dialogue, because we know that this dialogue was not always there. normalized, quite often communities exist in an isolated world, although offices may not be located on neighboring streets, as between ukrainian and polish communities, there is no communication between them for years. i will say that this cooperation has been going on for many years, we were very involved in the issue when poland and the baltic countries and other eastern european states demanded or wanted membership in nato, we helped them a lot and... they are helping us today and they help, that's why there are such coordination, i head the coordination group at the global level, the central and eastern european coalition, and such similar coalitions exist in canada and america, and we closely cooperate with the communities, because i will give the example of canada, there are already more than

1.8 million ukrainians, well, to the full headquarters, 1.4 officially according to statistics, but together with other central and eastern european ones. we would reach closer to 6-7 million, because as we said, as one coalition, it is a stronger voice, and we encourage our communities that are still developing in other countries to find a coalition with others, the jewish community in america especially, but also in canada, is very supportive, i very often, when i was the president of the ukrainian congress of canada , signed joint petitions published in newspapers, where, for example, i will never forget during . revolution of dignity, the head of the jewish congress of canada and i wrote a letter or an article that ukraine has, has, has many problems, but anti-semitism is not one of them, because at that time there was a lot of such disinformation that

maidanyuts are all nazis, things like that , and there are examples, i can give a lot of them, how we work with other ethnic groups, it is very important that they support us, and there is an example, even the iranian... community, where we find a common enemy in iran, where we together we organize demonstrations on various issues, and this needs to be repeated and deepened, well, it is interesting to what extent, let's say, the politicians themselves in the united states are aware of the importance of such communities, kamela hudiston also addressed the poles in pennsylvania, and here is donald trump, he would probably also like to cooperate with these communities for when it comes to every vote is worth its weight in gold. to what extent do they make such contacts with different teams of different politicians of this level? i cannot say exactly about both teams, how they work with all ethnic groups, but i will say that work with the ukrainian community works,

but at the level of congressmen, that is, unfortunately, frankly, unfortunately, whether it is the trump team or it kamly gerres' team does not... actively work with the ukrainian community, so this is problematic and we must correct it, as far as we can now influence this situation in the two months she has left, do you have some kind of victory plan, so to speak? yes, first of all, we must call on them to specify how they will help ukraine, specifically, how they will behave and what they will force ukraine to do, and this is very important in other countries as well. we conduct such polls before the elections and call on the political parties and leaders to decide how they stand, whether they will continue to actively support the military and provide at least the same the very support, if not more to ukraine and

to pledge them, so that then the voters would know for sure, not to play with words, that i will decide and there will be peace in ukraine, but specifically how, and that is why we can in this way in... the next two months influence to specify their, their plans, or what they are ready to do? well , you and i always turn to the topic of ukrainians in the russian federation, and the question arises , you... do you see any new trends during this time, the possible strengthening of some repressions, on the contrary, the appearance of some people from there who could we talk about what is happening there with ukrainians, in general, are there any people left there capable of declaring their ukrainian identity, i am afraid that those who declare their ukrainian identity very much may not be the greatest friends of ukraine, and i think those who were really afraid for themselves, they were real leaders, they either hid in... completely in russia, that is, they did not show it, or they left abroad, and many of our leaders of the ukrainian

community in russia left abroad, just as we think with them, as best in this situation to help, but frankly any contact with the world congress of ukrainians and with the ukrainian community in russia can lead to very bad things, criminal cases for sure, well , that is, it is like an extremist organization in fact absolutely, well, we are recognized as an extremist organization, so we even went . criminal cases before a full-scale invasion against the leaders of our community, that is why i advise ukrainians in russia to live underground, as, say, the ukrainian greek-catholic church lived during the soviet era, the same must be lived now, will be, there will be a change in the regime, i am convinced of this, as when it will happen is not known, but be yourself, stick to ukrainians, please tell me, by the way, about ukrainianness. about citizenship, i cannot but ask you about this law on multiple citizenship, about some kind of

discussion, but it is not as if under consideration, but it will not be adopted, how interested are you in the adoption of this law, as a representative of the ukrainian world community, and how this law should look like? for many years, even before zelenskyi's presidency , we have been calling for a formula for the plural or dual citizenship, because it's just a reflection of reality. the reality is that the majority of ukrainians living abroad, well, let's say, before the full-scale invasion, have the citizenship of another country, that is, this is the reality today, but they did it, well , theoretically, illegally, and this laws should be adapted to people, to society, and not the other way around, and that is why we believe that plural citizenship has become even more important especially today after a full-scale war. because this is one of the keys to the return policy and to the e

their involvement in the matter, because her child will be a mother, the mother will have a choice, the child will be born there in another country, she has a choice whether to apply for ukrainian citizenship, because i want her to have another citizenship, or take it myself citizenship, do i have to renounce the ukrainian one then, we don't want that, we will lose this very... this is a very important connection for us, i will say that regarding this question, i think that in the war it is real, we meet with many politicians, we just discussed it, gathered all the pro-ukrainian factions in the verkhovna rada, in a week where many issues were discussed, including plural citizenship, i would say that there is a consensus among all factions that in general we should have a plural citizenship law, but the question is what kind of law, and it is very important that... this the law was discussed so that there would be an opportunity for all political forces

and the world congress of ukrainians to join the discussion of this law, because there is this law, which we have seen, we welcomed it, but it needs to be greatly refined, we need to put safety fuses there, let's say, we , we we call for it to be specifically written out which countries can, we recognize that there can be dual citizenship, secondly, that in principle there must be one classer. we cannot have two classes of citizens, and what does this mean, it means that if you have dual citizenship, you cannot, for example, run for the verkhovna rada, you cannot be the head of a department, you cannot be a school director, because all this requires having one citizenship, we saw this in earlier laws, and this is harmful, because we want ukrainians abroad to join the reconstruction of ukraine, but also as we have 25 million, maybe more, who... are abroad today, we don't want them to have a voice, maybe in the verkhovna rada, and why

can't a ukrainian from abroad aspire to be a deputy in the verkhovna rada, and there are just restrictions in other bills that we've seen that those two classes have created, but on the sidelines, explain, valda sadamka was going to be president of lithuania, being a citizen of the united states, he renounced his american citizenship, vare vika freiberge was elected president of latvia, she renounced her canadian citizenship, ugh, so they were ready to participate. in the political development of their countries, i am simply mentioning the first people here, because i remember it, to give up the passport that they had from birth, in fact, and i know many who are not ready to do it, well, there were even. some are very professional, maybe they were even potential diplomats for ukraine, but they were not ready to give up their own, that is, these are the cornerstones, obviously, how does someone become the president, i would hope that she refused, but there i don't know whether to be an ambassador, or to be the head of a department, you still want to delay your social security service, such as

access to state secrets, well, it depends on who, it depends on who, it is decided by... individuals, not not, not at the position, because how is it taken a person for some position, then you check whether you, you think that he or she has one citizenship, or has two citizenships, you still check whether this person is worthy to have this, this access to secret information, maybe it's just the experience of the post-soviet years, when people there went to some positions, they had russian passports in their pockets, all this was adapted, as if it had to be, then he can now be afraid of anyone. citizenship of another, well, but we also want to become members of the european union, and as we want to become members of the european union, it then makes it automatic that there must be a permit to have dual citizenship, well, it must still be some kind of model, to me it seems to be legislative, because on the one hand , i would really like ukrainians from other countries to take part in the development of ukraine specifically political, well, we are many people with a good education, with an understanding of how

real political processes develop, and not post-soviet ones, that’s all clear, but on the other hand, this question is always... what choice do they make, well, you can’t become an ambassador for 5 years, and then return to another country, any country and continue to work there, as if you did not work here in the civil service, well, i think, so what is the level of interest, so it is necessary, so congratulations, it is necessary that we discuss it, because even if everyone understands what are the pros and cons of any law, we can't just the law was presented, everyone votes, whether you like it or not, it is important that it is discussed in committees, that all political forces... an opportunity to consult, to include civil society in this, so that we can have a discussion, that all those questions, what are the real issues, are they resolved in this law, and you and president zelensky discussed this in april in chernivtsi, when there was a meeting, they definitely discussed it, the president supports multiple citizenships, supports the concept that there should be one class of citizen , and we hope

that it will be so reflected in the legal law, in general, when was this meeting, what was the main thing? at such a moment, if we talk about it, it was the last meeting with the president, true, so extensive, extensive, well, we see each other, for example, there was a short meeting in washington, when the president was at the nato summit, we then had the opportunity to meet, but such to have an in-depth discussion, it was last april, and the president called on us to help collect military aid, in particular air defense, and called on all our communities, that they actively act in their countries, that they put political pressure on... their governments, that they provide maximum air defense and military aid, the second is the entry into nato membership and the entry into eu membership. and thirdly, it is very interesting what the president presented to us, he called us to promote the ukrainian identity, and it was very good to hear from the president, we obviously do it, but what the president

calls and sees the importance of, so that we do not lose consciousness of those millions who left. and that we keep this ukrainian identity so that either they return or became our, our lawyers abroad. and by the way, i wanted to ask you about identity and generations, because we now see that a real generational change is taking place at the public, political level, there are more young people, to what extent is this process taking place in ukrainian communities, uh, in the west first of all, isn't there aging, let's say communities, there are many people... who feel they are ukrainians, but they are english speakers in the united states and canada, they don't know the ukrainian language, they have a ukrainian identity, what to do with it, how integrate these people into this general process. i will start by saying that i will return from a working visit of the scu to south america, where our communities worked, but also the main thing was to work with politicians, and i use them as an example, because these are

already old communities, there are many of them, 4,000 in argentina. 600,000 in brazil, and this is already the fourth, fifth generation, they went there 135 years ago, the first settlers and we were the krapolkas of the new wave, there was a little bit of the third, a little bit of the fourth, but these are small groups, they lost their language, so there is a conversation in spanish-portuguese, spanish -portuguese, but they cherish ukrainian culture very much, and that is why they consider themselves ukrainians, they have lost their language, but the dances are ukrainian. who love the kitchen, the church, singing, i was surprised how wonderful they are, how beautifully they sing, but they do not know the ukrainian language, but they sing in the ukrainian language they speak, that's it. perhaps each one is a spectrum of this, as it should be, but it is important to be ukrainian, obviously we want them to crush ukrainians, we will nurture it, but we do not want us to have a political

a mature ukrainian community, which may not all know the ukrainian language, this is real, i look at the powerful organization of the congress of ukrainians of canada, there are many, even the heads of the community, who do not speak ukrainian, but they manage ukrainian issues, and they are professionals, they are capable and they can help a lot, we will nurture, we won't, but we can't reject them, by the way, you talk about south america, that's an interesting point, because that can be the effort in the global cock, where we like we see governments are neutral to both parties to this war, prefer to maintain good relations with russia, economic relations, how much can the communities there change the public's point of view, with the elections, brazil, we may not we don't like lula's politics, i also don't like... , but still i didn’t like takinar anymore, well, but i think he understood, i met with his former ministers, and they understood their mistake when they were in power, and i

think that, by the way, their former minister of defense was recently in ukraine, and i met with him, so i think that they are ready to change their policies, but brazilian deputies and senators are still so democratic. and that's why i called on my community to become politically active, to join politics, to become deputies, among other things, i met a very interesting member of the baazir parliament, his name is pavlo bilynskyi, he is the second and third generation already in brazil , but he has a trident drawn on his forehead, considers himself a patriot of ukraine and he really wants to work with us, he shows you dad, dad yes, well... in brazil you can see everything, well, we also had dinner together, it was more informal, but, but

we have to influence through civil society, because i felt that in brazil, argentina and other countries, civil society supports us, they understand it, and we have to find different levers of influence to influence these governments, and it is possible, i think, looking at the senate and looking at the parliament, how they treat ukraine, i would said, they are very positive, we will see, we are calling for them to pass laws by november to recognize the holodomor genocide, they are discussing it right now, and it will be such a breakthrough moment that we can pass a law in brazil recognizing the holodomor genocide , then we will , through the parliament and other political forces , try to influence politics, and politics, as we know in a democracy , changes, that is, lula will not be around forever, and we hope that the offensive... the force that will be may be pro-ukrainian, but still we can and even to influence him, as i met with his minister of crown affairs, i urged, i said, how can you be neutral, when there is

clearly an aggressor and clearly there is a victim, that is, there is a country that is at war, and they are playing big politics, it seems like a big policy, but brazil frankly, it is in the pocket of china, as you have mentioned more than once and... i see all over brazil, how many chinese banks are everywhere, everywhere, everywhere on the street, so it is a difficult situation, there difficult situation that brics is expanding and we have to think how we we can counteract this brix. i want to end this conversation of ours, maybe you would like to address ukrainians here and ukrainians outside of ukraine, at the end of our program today, maybe something. do you want to say something that i did not ask you about, well , thank you very much, vitaliy, as always, everything is nice to talk to, but dear ukrainians, i

strongly urge you that today, as ever, we must help ukraine, in every direction, and donate, and volunteer, and go out , and actively participate in politics, and think to yourself what you will do every day to help ukraine, because how... each of us, 25 million ukrainians abroad, will do something every day to help ukraine, whether materially or politically, we can soon win this war, but only with joint efforts, we cannot hope that only the government or the state of america will save ukraine, it depends on all of us, so join the political processes and help finance our work, join united withukraine.com and you can help purchase critical equipment for armed forces of ukraine. thank you. it was pavlo grokht, president of the world congress of ukrainians. and this conversation and this program, hello to you, vitaliy portnikov, a whirlwind of victory. friends good luck.

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