of ukrainian production, but ukraine's capabilities are limited and cannot be compared with russian potential, therefore we cannot win without allies and their military-industrial complex, and they are in no hurry to make strategic decisions, and when they do make them, it is too late, hence the victory plan in the end, it can be left as it is... another unrealized document, the war will continue according to its own laws, not subject to any plans, strategies and forecasts. congratulations, friends, the politclub program is on the air on the espresso tv channel, vitaly is with you portnikov, and today we are talking about what is happening with russian propaganda during all these years of war. how is it

changing, how is it harming ukraine and the world, how to deal with it, is it propaganda at all, or some kind of conviction? our first guest in the studio is olga len, a journalist, my colleague on the spressa tv channel, host of the chronicle of information war program. congratulations ms. olga. congratulations. well, this is actually quite an interesting moment that happened with russian television, not even in these 2.5 years, but i can say for all these decades, i have... now to reveal a secret, here you are hosting the chronicle of information policy program on the espressa tv channel, and i hosted the chronicle of national policy program on russian television, in the late 80s, early 90s , because then my russian colleagues said: "we need to talk with the people of russia, we need to solve the issue of how people of different nationalities live in russia and throughout the soviet union, an equal approach is needed, we need to talk." the truth about

these repressions, which were carried out against the peoples, and here i am for a short time, i will say right away, it was not some stellar career, and that is why i hosted this program, i remembered that these are chronicles of national politics, and i am convinced by it hosted by boris yeltsin, he said: "you should come to this new democratic channel, because you know the national issue, and what channel was rtr, russian television, created by the verkhovna rada of democratic russia, my god, that's the main operator, the main operator , but he was..." native to soviet union television at the time created just like democratic television and all these stars are the future of russian television yevhen kiselyov tetiana mitkova i apologize dmytro kiselyov they all started there in the vesti program it was not uncensored by the party television such a community, but the essence is not in this, the essence is that when i talk about i remember this now, here we are talking, it was as if it was not the same as in another life, in some other country, well, that's how it was in another country. objectively it is so, because at

a certain moment russian television stopped to be television, journalism, when someone is trying to tell me now, well, it is also journalism, no, these are civil servants who come to work, they have a task, they are there, some of them are included in the structure, for example, of the army, and they work for the army, someone is included in the structure of the ministry of foreign affairs of russia, they work for the ministry of foreign affairs. in russia, there is a person who is directly included in the structure of the administration of the president of russia, who simply works as an administrator with the administration of the president and works, well, for the office of the president of russia, let's say this, in a narrow circle, that is, he works exclusively there, this is one person, there is a film crew, and they are all very clearly divided, because what they do is not of any journalism, has been gone for a long time, and it happened like this, well, in principle, in 2000, when they hacked... ntv. after that, even

there, a large part of people, those who made ntv, by the way, dobrodiyev, remember, or several of the best journalists in russia, they switched to the same rtr, and that’s it, and that’s russian television, and russian television journalism simply ended. but interestingly, interestingly, this is the ideology, this is the imperial one, this is just a lot of money that they started to receive, here is a great example, this is solovyov's villa on lake koma. each of them has some of these. yes, well, this is a lot of money for a television journalist, even for an american tv star, sorry, how much work do you have to buy a villa, and i remembered, here is the episode, we are sitting, this is exactly the period when ntv was broken, illustration, we are sitting in the then ambassador of the united states of russia federation in moscow, alexander verzhbow, breakfast, leonid parfionov, yevhen kiselyov, oleksiy. benediktov, oleksandr kucher,

volodymyr solovyov and i, i represent radio svoboda at this meeting, which is dedicated to how to protect independent russian media from the pressure of the authorities, the ambassador wants to listen to the stars of russian television. and here is volodya solovyov, he says: what are you telling us about all this, mr. ambassador, you give us money, and we will do everything to have independent television, give money, well, maybe they just gave him as much money as there was it is necessary, it is not true, they were given money, to the americans as well, because, by the way, this is what is happening now, when i think, well, for the first time in a very long time... well, some intelligence community and some independent institutions there have generally assessed that , what is done by russian propaganda, that is the same rt, that it is simply a state russian influence on journalism, and those who

cooperate with them, accordingly, simply cooperate as spies, mind you, not as those who spread fakes, no, it's just like professional fsb officers. professional agency, it was the first time now, just now, when several investigations on this topic came out, it turned out that there are politicians who cooperate, there are journalists who cooperate, independent bloggers who were simply kept for the money of the kremlin, and they already, well, by the way, this is the program of the chronicle of national politics, see, see, see, yes, yes, yes, and for the first time it was said only now, that is, only now did they say, well, at all... should we talk about it as it is, not that there are two countries, one profession, there are russian ones, there are some journalists, there are ukrainian ones, there is a need for journalists somewhere programs, don't forget, solovyov also worked in the united states, and simonyanyan was on the united states exchange program,

but in ukraine we encountered this much earlier, remember, there were various envoys of the russian media and political centers here and there , such a political scientist, bondarenko, seems to have been his last name, that's what he is now, well, he is. no no not here he is here he was here he is no, this is another bondarenko, it was bondarenko, a citizen of the russian federation, i don't remember his name, oleg or serhiy, to be honest, i just don't remember anymore, that's it this bondarenko, he even created a center in kyiv, where discussions were held, respectable people came, in fact, this was my debut, just like that, it was, of course , an intelligence center where people were recruited, where people who now... flowed came to the discussion to moscow and there they work for this russian propaganda, and it was not journalism and it was not an exchange of positions, it was just another intelligence center of the russian federation, something like the famous roskomsotrudnichestvo, which was also here at the russian embassy, ​​held various festivals,

writers were re-invited there, but wait, what was headed and supervised by konstantin zatulyan, and the statute of the cis countries, it was created as an intelligence agency from the very beginning. yes, well, but he also acted here, he acted and his representative was here, this volodymyr karnilov, yes, who is now, in principle, well, everything fell into place, because he is just now some kind of naked, such a talking head on russian television, but he was not just the head, he was just an officer of the special lodges, what did he do, it must be good that we mentioned it, he wrote a book, i don't know if you've read it, called danetska krivorozskaya republic, it was not just a book, it was actually an ideological preparation. before the secession of donbass, because this donetsk-kryvyorizh republic, it was shown in this book, as a really real entity that was destroyed by the vile bolsheviks, and it was a real state, it had every right to be a state, the bolsheviks destroyed it bastards, and i have

karnilov several times after various tv shows where we were both participants, i wanted to read it, well, me was generally interesting. history of the donetsk-kryvyi rih republic, and i said to him: can you bring me a book? i want to read your book, he never brought it to me, i didn't see it until i managed to find it somewhere in a russian translation, because they distributed it in donbas, he didn't want me to read it here, because he understood what conclusions i would draw about this book, because this book had a clear, i would say, instrumental meaning, he did not need to be in kyiv someone read... and commented, well, you know, there was not only the case in knyzhsky, there was also the fact that they actually united people on the basis of this institute, who later became the very people who organized mutinies and in donetsk, and in luhansk, and in the crimea in the end, because it was on such

and such a staircase, he once had the impudence to invite me, i saw there, well, kalynychenko and a bunch of all these all kinds of leaders of all kinds of kazas. and so on, but i was careless when he asked me, well, well how about you, i said, well, it's a kind of markabesis, and that's all, and after that i was never invited to it, now we'll invite you to a conversation at... the program of the professor of manhattan university in the united states, igor aizm, congratulations, mr. igor. greetings to you, friends, greetings to all the viewers, well, we already mentioned with ms. olga that, in fact, now at the event they are beginning to understand that it is not about journalists, but about spies, of course, and that all their activities, they are activities absolutely of a different nature, as is now becoming apparent in the united states, well you see, it becomes obvious, since even the state department is two weeks old. in a row, this is three weeks ago and two weeks ago, introduced a number of sanctions against, this is already, i would say,

not even secondary sanctions, this is already there for the third or fourth time the same rasha today, and various agencies under sanctions, and that the well-known kiselyov is under sanctions, but appropriate things have also started regarding american citizens, well, in particular, such a well-known person. a us citizen like dmitry simes, who, however, had been in moscow for several years, and now it is unlikely will return to the united states, since he is generally criminally charged for violating sanctions against russia, since he constantly appears on the russian channel one, and channel one is under sanctions, you see, but they could not, at least for all these years activity. to find evidence that, that evidence that could help charge him

with espionage, well at least charge him with violating sanctions, you know, in the united states there is another problem because there are american propagandists who are not by russian agents who are not officers of the russian special services, but who promote these russian narratives, like tucker carlson himself, like even members of congress, and ... god of chambers, i was watching cnn this morning, and there was an interview with the senator from arkansas cotton. well, i remembered how in 2017, in an interview with cnn's tomas, senator cotton said that there is a civil war in ukraine. and here he is one of those who constantly use russian narratives in any of his interviews, in any speeches, he spreads them, or take a candidate for vice...

which may somehow be related to their mentality, by the way, you mentioned dmytro simes, it's an incredible story, dmytro simes did it to himself. built a reputation for a career in the united states on the reputation of his parents, his mother, dina kaminskaya, was one of those lawyers who defended dissidents in the soviet union, not like medvedchuk, but really, she lost her job, and they harassed her was forced to leave the soviet union and, together with her husband, her father, hosted right-wing programs on radio liberty, many years, but he left earlier. i understand that this was also an important issue, that they tried to blackmail them with the fate of their son, and then

when he left, after a certain time it turned out that he was not a democrat, not a liberal, but he was a person who was close to richard nixon, let's say, organized the visits of richard nixon to the russian federation, that is, the person was at the very center of the american political elite, could influence the opinions of not only people like toker kanson, wait, he is still the leader of this... and on him this magazine is permanent they refer to, they wrote there as if this is not a russian project in the usa, but some american one, well, that’s it, as far as symes is concerned, of course, it’s russian, it’s despite the fact that this person just constantly runs the program on the first one, sorry, well so everything about sai is really a russian project of the usa, but when we look at people like that, yeah... carlson, or like members of congress, like, like senator cotton, like like marjorie taylor

green, uh, such a different senator kennedy, who , however, lately we have not seen him we hear, but we've heard it before, it's just me or senator vance, the candidate for vice president, who simply repeat all the russian narratives over and over again, especially which narratives russian narratives relate to russian aggression against ukraine, avoiding the word aggression at all . senator cotton said that there is a civil war in ukraine, i wrote him a letter then, it just infuriated me, you know, when you hear this on cnn, i wrote him a letter. big z and so very outrageous, of course he didn't answer anything, i then also wrote to wolf plitzer, the anchor of cnn, in an interview to whom he said this, that if plitzer had to deny such and such statements, perhaps he would have denied them now, for example, today, today, senator cotton gave

an interview to another to the cnn anchor who said he disagreed with what he was spreading... veteri senator uh and well that's that i think that's a decent thing to do by the anchor, but unfortunately, unfortunately, it's very, very rare that this happens, well, i just think that this is what the presenter refuted, this is a certain movement in a positive plan, and it's actually me, well of course you know, it's better than me, but it still looks to me. as a result of that is the exposure of the entire network of this agency that created feikin, for which bloggers worked and received money directly from the hands of russian agents, and you know, here you can only act like this, that is, if you expose the source of all this and show:

look, and then this is repeated verbatim by one senator, another senator, then these bloggers are distributed by elon musk, also, that is, you, when you give more information that the source is incorrect, that it is compromised, then of course, in this way, the person who spreads it raises the question of whether he spreads it because he does not understand, or whether he spreads it also because he is compromised and also, because he is a part of this, well, sorry, not even some kind of system. fakes, but just outright political corruption, i think it is worth talking about it, the problem of mrs. olyu is that mr. vitaly just said at the very beginning, when the three of us started talking, what is american politicians who have such views, frankly, these far-right politicians have far-right views, so this russian

propaganda, it is designed so that they will be happy to repeat these russian narratives, because they... look, for example , to elon musk, what the former twitter has become, and we 're just seeing this host, jack taper and senator cotton, this morning on cnn, and jack taper said at the end of this interview, i disagree, almost completely, that senator cotton taught veterinary science there, senator cotton today accused kamela harris of not liking jews, when jack taper told her, come on, she, she has a jewish husband, and there's no for... and so on and so forth , the fact is that they, they are these russian narratives, like the same cotton, like the same, like the same marjory taylor green, like the same takry carlson, they repeat them with pleasure, like the same elon musk, here on what he turned twitter into, there are no

fuses, twitter is very similar to telegram now with its anonymous telegram channels, you can spread whatever the... musk actually all the safeguards that were on twitter to prevent misinformation from spreading there, he, he removed them, and what he does, he spreads the same misinformation himself in his own tweets , here only to prove political corruption, you know, only to prove political corruption and insist that the source is poisoned, that the source is funded by the kremlin, and there, well, excuse me, there is simply no way here, it is obvious that a politician who it spreads will run into such a possible reaction of journalists, well, only in this way from the other side, let's think about the fact that we have come a long way forward, now there is anthony blinkin, the secretary of state of the united states, he calls rasha today an organization that spreads propaganda, where

russian spies work, and we remember the time in 2017, when a person who worked with rashit... and who at the reception in honor of the anniversary today was at the same table with the president of russia volodymyr putin, michael flynn, you remember what he was, he was the national security adviser to the president of the united states, the author of the rash and nothing, trump removed him under pressure, but he was very unhappy that he had to remove him, remember this, mr. igor, this story, of course, he, he pushed it when washington post journalists simply published the whole thing. the story of how he lied, lied when he testified to the fbi agents, and actually so that, he was compromised just so that he, he, if he... he didn't they accused him of being an agent of russian intelligence, of being dependent on russia, of the fact that he

worked for russia there with russian money, because he went to moscow for russian money, simply, simply he was completely compromised by all of this, and if the journalists had not written about it, he probably would have remained trump's national security adviser, that is, for trump, it was all, everything was fine. of course, there is a huge problem here due to the fact that the west does not fully understand the nature of these russian media, which appeared precisely in putin's time, that is, they understood that the media in the soviet union is controlled by the party, that all these people are most likely agents of the kgb, or just party workers, that they are not journalists, well, even if a person appeared whom they considered to be a journalist, this person still had some kind of party or soviet origin, let's say. during the caribbean crisis, they had closed negotiations there with the editor-in-chief of the izvesti newspaper oleksiy madjubey, well, he was a journalist on the shutters, but he was taken by khrushchev, that is, they spoke to him not as a journalist, but as a representative

of the soviet nomenclature, a high-ranking, well, just a journalist, but in the 90s they began to perceive russian journalists precisely as journalists, and many of them, especially during the putin period not that it is possible that someone was not a journalist, but from the very beginning was a check officer, someone became one. employee of this new nomenclature, and this misunderstanding by the west of the nature of things, it is usually also given as a sign of reactions to all this information, you know, you know, it's interesting that the former soviet intelligence officer yuriy bezmenov warned the west, he, he worked under the roof of the apn in canada, ah, but he switched to the west, simply, he surrendered, reported that he was a russian spy, and. .. after that, in particular, he gave several public lectures, you can find them, by the way, they are on youtube in america, ah, the year 84, he

warned about all this, what the kgb would do, about this plan , when, when they will give up their propaganda of communism, and when they will kill the west for with the help of freedom of speech. using these institutions of western society, first of all using freedom of speech, that 's what they do, that is, they throw in these narratives that are picked up by those in the west, who are then used as useful idiots, and it definitely works, look how it worked in in the 16th year during the election campaign in america, very successfully, it's not, no, no, i'm making it up now, if we take the special's report. prosecutor robert müller, about his possibility based on the results of his investigation the cooperation of then-

presidential candidate trump's headquarters with russia, it's terrible. mueller has already indicted several dozen people there, russian gru employees, precisely because they were engaged in spreading the kind of propaganda that is picked up by the useful idiots in america, it's... it's really terrible, has anything changed since then, but we can see from these recent news that, basically, nothing has changed, russia continues to do the same thing, well you know, unfortunately, we'll only see it during the election, because uh, well, that's going to be an indicator, because if it is not an obstacle for the american voter that the people they want to elect directly cooperate with russia, directly ...

consume, because they think that russia is a province, there are people who are happy that it is a white christian country, with which they need to be friends, and ukraine in their coordinate system. does not exist, this is a minority of americans, but unfortunately there are many such people, in particular in the american province that votes for republicans, well , i'm sorry, i'm sorry, but it's not the first time we've seen this, well, sorry, well the day before, more precisely, when the second world war began, well, the same situation existed, there were also people in the american hinterland who believed that there was nothing wrong in hitler's germany, moreover, there were whole bodies... they all had to be killed in 1943 it's just normative to shut them down and say that they are spies, but now it seems to me

that essentially the same thing is happening. i will tell you, i had the experience of communicating with absolutely simple very people, i lived in an american province for quite a long time, the state of arkansas, and with quite ordinary people, quite ordinary people told me back in 2008 that they, for example, they will not participate in the presidential elections, why, because there is no one to vote for, because obama is a communist, and mccain is also a bad person , because he, he wants to fight with russia, and we have to be friends with russia, and this is not the eighth year... now it was still the eighth year, well, that is, it was such a request for trump, they actually constructed trump, who did not exist yet , just like that, just like that, just like that, and what to do with such people, i, moreover i think that these are people, i heard it from not one person, i can't say from many, but from a number of people, ordinary simple people, they live in the hinterland, they watch tv, mostly there , let's say the fox channel, and all this is their

coordinate system through which they ... perceive the world, how can you, how can you prove to such people that they are their coordinate system, it is wrong, well, only when a sufficiently large part of the leaders of public opinion it rejects only so, and for this there is just the argument is that those who support this ideology, people who work with russia, and they work not just like that, but receive money, this is not ideological cooperation, this is cooperation exclusively for money, this should be exposed. yes, yes, this is happening now, this is the first time i saw it when it was really revealed, well, when all these bloggers on the platform can't say that they didn't know from whom they received millions, because it sounds stupid, what do you mean didn't know yes, please, mr. igor, unfortunately, a lot of time has been wasted, because in fact, look, for many years it was done, i think after the collapse of the soviet union, when it just stopped, all these attempts through the communist parties of the west, there... to destabilize

the west, and then switched to exactly what they're doing now, which they've been doing in general for the last 30 years, that is, they're destabilizing the west through these kinds of intrusions, and more of the far-right of this, very right-wing nature, in order to stir up various contradictions in western societies, particularly in the united states, and this one, you know, the post-information space that we 're all in, where a lot of people are... and they're just painting a picture of the world that they believe in, and they're only taking in things that confirm what, what they believe, any disinformation that confirms their picture of the world drawn by them is perceived by them, and real information is not perceived, that is, if something is not liked, then all this, all this, as trump says, is fake news, this is a big problem , therefore, on the one hand, yes, it is necessary to expose, say, those who receive directly from russia.

money, these are those who simply repeat russian propaganda word for word, but we need to do something else, we need to significantly, significantly expand the opportunities for the dissemination of true information, because if we are going after each, for each, let's say, a russian fake, we simply will not we won't be able to do anything else, we, we won't have enough time for anything, we will only refute this solid lie that comes from russia, and is spread to different countries in different languages. well actually chasing every fake is really a job , i agree with you, absolutely so unproductive, because artificial intelligence will appear now and there will be even more of these fakes, so you need to chase not a fake, but a fake robot, well, it is important right now, i must say it again, we must always work to expose sources, only exposing sources and making it impossible for them to work will be effective,

it seems to me that... that this situation, which is now important from the point of view of the leaders of public opinion, is complicated by the fact that the republican party is simply afraid to argue with donald trump and those around him, that's the problem, we understand that a lot of people who are republican leaders, they have a very clear, clear value system, let's say mitch mccone, he's already in in principle, he said what you said to olga, about what happened before the second... world war, about how american politicians and isolationists were, who in one way or another did not allow american society to act, what a famous person, there he is literally a hero aviation and which just happened fascist verttif or joseph joseph kennedy, open supporters of hitler who did not hide, they said, yes hitler is beautiful.