pro-western position, but there are people who do not have a pro-western position, they have a different position, they believe andriy derkach for ukraine, belarus, russia, he headed such an association in the verkhovna rada, journalists on pro-russian channels, journalists on oligarchic channels, remember , how many times journalists of ihor kolomoisky holding repented, after the first maidan, after the second maidan, i stopped counting how many times they apologized for lying on the air, and nothing, and everything continued, i worked in the agency unyan, a lot of years to impose on ihor... kolomyyskyi has never repented and i don’t plan to, but i’m talking about myself, this is the first thing, and as for our situation, after all, no matter what, only now is it possible draw parallels there with france, where many invite representatives of the embassy of fascist russia on the air within the framework of this bbs standard. we have a full-scale invasion, or rather, the closing of medvedchuk's canals. the situation was completely different, and those

who worked, made, financed these channels, they were engaged in anything but journalism, not informing the population, and they had a completely different, different purpose, but will there be such channels in germany, like ours, well, i don’t know, if so, that’s for the germans to decide, but we don’t have them these channels, and by the way, after that the war started, well, i'm not saying that this... this one flows from the other, but to a certain extent, including what is meant, because then vladimir putin looked, yes, once i i will no longer be able to play this grimace of democracy, then we will go on tanks, but i emphasize once again, i consider it the decision that was made regarding the closing of the russian channels is true, just the price, that 's all, that's all, all these things are connected, because we somehow can't. on tv channels,

journalism, politics and life somehow separate something, it's all very much connected, many people, many interests, well, the russian interest was actually understood to be allowed to kill ukrainians with impunity, well here you just have to understand very well that somewhere from in the year 2000 , the russian tv industry as such, call it, or the media industry in general. triya has been transformed, it has ceased to be informing at all, that is, as such, it has been for a long time, not informing, not telling news, it is built on completely different foundations, it is built on the foundations of reflexive management, when you speak some thesis of the population from morning to night in order to lead a stake at the exit, well, repeated repetition of this thesis worked as psychological programming, and precisely because of this... they

were closed not because they gave some other point of view, but because it was not information, in principle, it was programming but how many, but on the other hand, how many people with so-called democratic views did not bother to go to the studio, participate , look, even now on german tv channels, and oleksandr will not let you lie, i invite you. some russian type of experts who tell the same theses and according to the same, well, the same principles, as on french tv channels, when russian politicians are invited, and they for some reason believe that they will tell some information or point of view, this is not a point of view, not information, it is reflexive management, the basis of which is to repeat the delusion many times so that a person simply has a lot.

the one-time repetition worked like programming, it works like that, and the germans are also watching right now, when their entire and alternative for germany repeats it many times, and and and again, well, these are completely different principles, i understand the danger, oleksandr, what what the russians, in addition, saw that this time does not work anymore, they are creating a literal alternative information space, as my colleagues from rfe /rl showed recently, they simply create there is a big system of information fakes, which is supposed to pass off as a real existing information system, i don’t really understand what to do with it to the end, it’s the same as the famous ukrainian telegram channels, which can be oriented, some allegedly to the office of the president , and others to focus on the administration of the russian president, but pretend to be anonymous channels of the office of the ukrainian president, and the ukrainian consumer sits in this system of complete disinformation, and this is what is being prepared for the german, and let's say, fortunately... we are not

we can compare the german situation now and, for example, even the pre-war ukrainian situation, because again, i repeat, fortunately, control flights or pro-russian flights do not belong to the russians. politicians, let's call them that, do not yet have controlling stakes in russian media holdings, unless we know something new, there are only a few publications, purely german publications, which, let's say, from their very ideological preferences related to the left and close ties with the former regimes of the gdr, they continue to do so speak frankly. a pro-russian or very badly disguised pro-russian position, and the majority of media can be said to be really democratic western media with their flaws, but one way or another they really perform the function

of informing society first of all, some of them have more, in their opinion, social responsibility, those , who, after all , used tabloid models in his work, but one way or another, this is a system that functions within the western framework and tries to respect its readers, viewers, the information they provide them, and the russians, realizing that they do not have such total dominance in this market as they do at home or, so to speak, against the background of the former. of their republics, which they can simply pour money into and buy half of the media space there or even the entire media space at once, and under the guise of some conventional chicks and other, mr. fuks, then in germany

you have to look for two ways, the first is to use the problems of the media themselves, about one of them we said, this is a false balance, relatively speaking, german journalists to... very often forced to feel responsible, that they can simply say what they saw, that it is raining outside the window, if suddenly someone says that outside the window the sun, the sun, they must necessarily present this alternative opinion, perhaps giving a certain background, but like any profession, journalism, even in germany, it is full of very native different people, some are more professional and responsible. someone is just lazy and wants to get his fee and go home and drink beer and watch football and these people, people sometimes messages of maria zakharova can be reposted or published on the sites of quite respectable media without any context, and this is

how propaganda actually works, very often, you simply fill the information space with a huge number of versions that the western media are very often forced to publish, because these.. . come from nominally official persons, and it is considered rude to ignore this information, and to present it with appropriate headings and context requires a lot of work, skill and investment of one's own time and effort. this is one of the ways with which russian propaganda bypasses even those safeguards that exist in the western space. i 'm not talking about simply purchasing agents of influence who... and who, relatively speaking, have a pro-russian position, thus somehow try to influence the editorial policy of their own publications. it is very difficult to speak here without specific court sentences, but my practice of communication with some colleagues in germany allows me

to believe that it is possible that some of them are quite such a person who has either some ideological prejudices or some financial obligations, some kind...for some reason force her to promote a very openly pro-russian policy in her own publications, what motivates them, i unfortunately, unfortunately, do not know, but i have quite a few of them, i do not know how justified they are, but i suspect that it is not just the desire of this person to do so and so, but that it is a systematic work, but even this is not enough, and that is why there is a second column, so to speak, it is exactly the telegram that mr. italy, which is very popular with the voters of saara wagenknech and the alternative for germany, and the work of tiktok tv, which is not controlled by the chinese communist party in any way, but exclusively a source of funny videos about cats

and dancing, and for some reason the alternative for germany party is shown there the most, all studies show very well, that for some reason all parties want to be in tiktok, but the best thing is alternatives for germany, apparently they are very skilled, or there are some algorithms that allow you to do so that... for some reason, this particular party is pushed to german voters on the eve of the elections in germany, and this is in no way connected with the interests of the chinese communist party in europe, and at the expense of these so-called alternative media, first of all, this alternative reality is presented, which is in no way connected with a reality that we can observe with our eyes and hear, and thus german journalists can be criticized a lot. but this is still an institutionalized sphere, these are some

standards, they can be used, they can be manipulated, they can be used, but it is very difficult to twist them so that white becomes with black, you can pollute the white a little and lighten the black a little, but it is not possible to completely make white out of black in tiktok and telegram, it can be done very simply, and that is precisely why the alternative is for germany. soyuz start and the russians and the chinese invest in these sources of information, they are more under their control, they are not under the control of the west, and you can do anything there. thank you, thank you, oleksandr golobo, we will now take a break for a few minutes and continue our conversation with roman tsemalyuk and olga elen. damn it stairs, my legs can't walk anymore. wait, i know that there is no health, and what kind of health is there in the sixties, and i thought so until

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music - important news. september discounts on rezy stol. 10% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. vasyl zima's big broadcast. two hours of airtime, two hours of your time, two hours to learn about the war and how the world lives. two hours to keep up with economic and sports news. two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters who have become like relatives to many, as well as distinguished guests of the studio. events of the day in two hours. vasyl zima's big broadcast. a project for smart and caring people. espresso in the evening. the verkhovna

rada regularly adopts new laws. but how do these changes affect our lives? we have analyzed the new resolutions to inform you about the latest changes in ukrainian legislation. as legislative norms change our lives, what to prepare for? leading lawyers of the aktum bar association will answer these and other questions that concern ukrainians. watch every tuesday at 7:55 in the legal expertise program on the espresso tv channel. we continue, we continue the politclub program on the espresso tv channel. we are talking with my colleagues olga lyani and roman tsybolyuk. by the way, roman, this is a topic that we discussed during the break and it is quite interesting. this is a real pressure on foreign journalists working in moscow. and you know it very well on his own experience, and what it looks like in general, especially with western journalists who want to stay there, work, write

texts, i once refused the accreditation of the ministry of foreign affairs of the russian federation, after they began to put pressure on me, not even covertly, you want to get accreditation, and what do you write here, and what do you write there, they delayed the administration with accreditation for months, during the period of leonid kuchka... that it was possible to deal with it, because the administrations of the presidents between you communicated, then you yourself were completely, uh, so to speak, devoted, because... they simply could make your stay, legal stay in russia impossible, and they used this not only in relation to me, but some there is roman manekin, you remember roman manekin, from the occupied donbass, well, he was from the unoccupied donbass at the time, he was a ukrainian journalist, as it were, accredited by the ministry of foreign affairs of russia, but he was an ordinary russian agent, who later turned out to be in the dpr, he received accreditation at

hurrah, and well, your colleague is working, but it wasn’t a colleague, it was... an ordinary little vzbeshnik, well, it was a russian under credit, as if this published publication was called donetsky kryaz donetsky kryaz , and here i can immediately say that he went there i wrote that it's interesting, i'm not interested, i know one thing that no matter where you work, regardless of the size of the newspaper, you must go to the shower , and it seems to me that this is the basic set of any correspondent who is starting out. to work, and with regard to these accreditation things, it's generally very cool, because everything is very like that such a personal approach, and they also understand very clearly that whoever wants to stay in moscow is always there, for example, an icelandic journalist, well, what kind of icelandic is he, if he lives, he has lived for many

years, he has a russian wife, my wife also has a russian passport, but i have never , and at the same time, never intended to... stay in moscow, and accordingly, when they tell you, like, and we won't give you accreditation, what do you say, like, let's go i will go, yes, but there are people for whom work in russia is professional prestige, yes, you know, there is such it's an interesting thing, here you can use the experience of the ministry of foreign affairs, where there are still some terms that if a person, well, when he so much wants to live in moscow and walk around the ring, well... in this garden more than perform her professional duties, well, then she should go to the work of a cook there, maybe there will be a salary there, and there have already been such situations , and there were no such situations, i will say once again, the salary is more there, everything is fine, yes that it is in everyone, but then the influence in one's own country is lost, that's what it's all about the business is lost, and when you don't work in moscow, or when you work, no, when

you go to rush there, and of course, that's why these people are needed where they work, and it's obvious. another important point that roman and i can also say: they are very zealous about criticism of the ministry of foreign affairs of the russian federation, this is the kind of moment that generally causes them to be departmental, you see, after all, these are two russias, they played a little bit in a democracy before a full-scale invasion, and then in in principle, it was not accepted to call zakharov shmaroi, although now it has become the norm in principle even for the russians themselves, that is, they have changed there and if...

it is not a chinese question, regardless of what nation a person represents, how old he is, how long has he worked in moscow, he always formulates it like this, please comment on the state of russian-chinese relations and their perspective, the question is absolutely open, simple, and well, it already sounds so global, well, according to zakharova or someone else, who is in her place in this in this. well, i think that after the arrest of hershkovich, the situation has actually changed a lot, because now journalists working in russia are either under arrest, under threat of arrest, or if they

are not under threat of arrest, that is why they are not work for their national governments and states, and they work for none the less. and the russian government and the state, well, everyone can’t work, and you mean that they ask such a question of the russians because they are not zaryshova, which yes, i think that is actually there now, well, we will see very soon such a situation where there simply will not be any independent western journalists left, in principle, well, by the way, i remember the previous arrest, the arrest of nicholas danilov, correspondent of news, world report, it was before herzhkorich, but it was practically gorbachev's time. 90, a lot of time has passed. 99th, it seems to me like a year ago, something like that , no, 99th, 89th, yes, 89th, 90th, right before the collapse. 89th year of the soviet union. it was the last arrest of an american journalist. and this, by the way, was a huge problem for everyone who worked in moscow. i was very i remember well, because my colleagues from various

western countries suddenly felt in absolute danger. i met with the person who replaced nikolas danilov in the moscow office of the us new york report after his arrest. i did an interview just for the youth of ukraine by jeff trimble, who later was one of the main managers of the radio for many years. freedom free europe, and i also felt that i was going to this office, i understood that there must be a person from the kgb standing there, and she was watching my movements, then, and then, and then, because, well, if they arrested of the previous correspondent, where i have guarantees that they do not follow this, well, that's why you, well, you can absolutely understand this atmosphere that will prevail there now, so i think that there are conversations, in general, some serious ones there about the possibilities of western journalists in moscow and russia. in general, well, they don’t have them there now, as far as i understand, now it’s not easy to go outside of moscow, you have to get a permit, that is, stay in general, i’m to

the point that the stay of western journalists there now, in general, is now such a debatable issue, because why are you sitting there if you can't go abroad to russia, if you can't really show anything, if you're constantly under pressure, in fact, don't even talk about it, everyday, well, that's what journalism is all about - it's presence, how to do without presence, without an influencer in journalism, and here is the question, well, does it give at least some opportunity to give real information, i think no, it doesn’t , that is, you were there as an influencer until the 22nd year, the war was going on for 8 years, this is an absolutely special period, well i must have been a bit so starstruck that they pointed at me and they said that you will speak russian. you can say whatever you want, and my position, it has never changed, i always called aggression aggression, occupation occupation,

well, actually only you, but it was opposed by a huge number of good ukrainians on their television shows, and people went, by the way, by the way, how did you feel about all these people who traveled for those eight years, well, what did you do for those eight years, what did they do for those eight years, well, how do you explain it? in general there was a period in history of this country, when it was fashionable to go to moscow to earn money, well, what, how do i feel, well, we must admit that most of them were already there during the period when they were influencers here and there, and then they disappeared here and there there, this is also such an interesting, interesting regularity, it is related to the fact that you must always remember who you are and what country you stand for. well, by the way, maria zakharova is now perfectly giving all the latest briefings exclusively in electronic format, that is, no one is going anywhere, she just turns on and everyone via video link,

so i'm to the point that in order to talk with you, you absolutely don't need to go to moscow now, and apparently no one is going, but i'm sorry that i can talk a little about something else, but if we talk about russian propaganda as a system and how the world is affected in general, it seems to me that in fact the main thing that they were able to promote and very actively is distrust of the media, well, that is, they undermined trust in the media in general, and here, uh, without the reverse process of returning some selection of sources, well , that is, the attitude towards the source of information, on it's a pity, it's also impossible to defeat some malicious propaganda, because you have to... first of all, pay a lot of attention to the sources: you can't drink water, sorry, from the toilet, well , you can't, if you drink it from there, then with you something wrong. denys kolesnyk, a political

observer from france, is in touch with us, congratulations to denys. good evening, and here is a good question, which was asked by our colleague olga len, how to restore the standards of journalism in general after russia actually threw this journalism somewhere into the post-truth, as far as westerners feel. i am not as a journalist, as you know, it is very difficult for me to talk about journalistic standards, but if we talk about the issue of disinformation and in general the informational influence of the russian federation and not only, because there is turkey and azerbaijan, then let's remember the azerbaijani footprint in the riots in new caledonia, for example , there is china, there are many different actors, let's say, who use the information space for their, to achieve their political goals, if we talk about western media, then in general, of course... if we say, we will talk about the global south, russia built there even during the soviet union, let's say,

er... mistrust of the western world, of the western media, and in principle, if you talk to people from bangladesh to algeria, conditionally, you will see , let's say, certain common features regarding their attitude to america and the western world and there, for example, to russia, the soviet union, on the other hand, there to the countries of another bloc, there to china and so on, to india, which, speaking about the content itself, of course... the problem is that i am a westerner in all kinds of media, they do not work so easily, in the media there is, for example, a theory, scientifically speaking, there is a theory of setting, it is still somewhere in the 70s, yes, from memory, it seems the 70s, it is the fact that any media, in principle, it gives people, let's say, selects content, selects topics that later become important for people, and you know, i once gave

a lecture... at one of the universities, here, by the way, it was a long time ago was, i was invited just on the subject of the russian information war, and one girl, she was from the countries of north africa, she asked me, here is a student, she asks me, she says: why should we trust reports that, for example, are published on facebook and twitter, these are the involved parties, and in reality, what are you, what answer will you give to this question, and the answer is very, very difficult actually because you can't 100% confirm or disprove if you put a lot of resources into it of course, but on an individual level it's very difficult to do, so the debate is quite difficult, actually. well, it will be even more difficult, because it has now appeared a lot of opportunities to just do absolutely falsified things with the help of artificial intelligence, with the help of a black fake, when you are idle on anonymous telegram channels,

not even anonymous, well... why did i even talk about this, because today, 15 hours ago elon musk once again wrote: don't believe the media, well, that is, don't believe the media, but who should believe bloggers? masko, well, just a question, the question ultimately comes down to the fact that one individual person, no matter how highly he thinks about himself, but he does not... media, and these teams do not have individual bloggers, well, teams, these teams, as a rule, there is one who sits and does something, he can only use what these bigger big teams have developed, when bellingcat does, we all spread it, so what we understand, bilingkat

is a big team. they do something professionally, we can rely on their opinion and so on, but when just a single person wrote something and passes it off as something like that, we can't say, or maybe he nailed it down on his knee literally on his computer and created a fake child, how can we tell, well, denis, and this is an interesting moment, because it was in france that pavel durov was arrested, and it is always believed that this is a way to verify, at least part of the information in the telegram, we know that there is no verification institution in telegram at all, but in facebook. there is one way or another, here’s yours, this student said, but in facebook there is a whole system of checking, if not information, then people for their reality, but telegram does not have this at all, no one checks any information from telegram, we now roman and i can write something and anything, and everything will be received calmly , you know, you know, i was smiling, because for the european consumer, this is

what... what belling cat publishes is reliable information, and for the consumer in africa, this is not reliable information, and here it must be distinguished very much, and here, for example, in countries, in my country, in france, there are a lot of people from africa who, for example, read belinket and others, let's say there , debanking initiatives, they do not trust, do not believe, but what russia will write, for example, or there's pro-russian media, they trust them because... closer, and that's the factor that really, that's this whole debate about disinformation, it doesn't take into account, but it needs to be taken into account. now coming back to durov, well, first of all, i'm very pleased that he was finally arrested and it was done by france, detained, i'm sorry, but there are different, there were different theories as to why he was detained, and one of them is that he refused to cooperate with our

french specialists. services, yes, what uh