there is reliable information, but for the consumer in africa, it is not reliable information, and here it must be very strongly distinguished, and here, for example, in countries, in my country, in france, there are a lot of people from africa who, for example, read belenket and others, let's say there, debanking initiatives, they don't trust them, they don't believe them, but what russia will write, for example, or there pro-russian media, they trust them, because it is closer to them, and this is the factor that actually. that's what this whole debate is about misinformation, it doesn't count, a it must be taken into account. now coming back to durov, well, first of all, i'm very glad that he was finally arrested, and it was done by france, detained, i'm sorry, but there are different, there were different theories as to why he was detained, and one of them is that he refused to cooperate with our special french special services, yes, which...

services that demanded, let's say, the closing of certain channels that sell illegal substances, that sell weapons, for example, and such there are a lot of channels, in fact, here is the question of content moderation, in my opinion, in general, this is what we are going to and without which social networks, in principle, they will not be able to exist normally, because if on the one hand you have, relatively speaking, people that you know are there, i don't know, there may be... bloggers, there may be opinion leaders, it doesn't matter, journalists, whoever you want. and on the other hand, i'm sorry , you have a set of different channels, here i was doing research, actually by telegram in africa, you remember, the tuaregs killed a group of wagners in the north of mali ugu, in tenzatin, yes, and there one of the russians yes called military correspondents, the author of the gray zones channel, he also died there, he was killed there, and so i watched him... let’s say

a microcosm of his channel, it’s so interesting that if there are channels with names, yes, which ones we can to identify in one way or another, who identify themselves in one way or another, then there are a number of users, anonymous, who were in the top three for the dissemination of information and information, and it is very interesting that, for example, there is the development of a certain narrative, i no longer remember i won't tell you the id of this channel from memory, but... what is needed is this it will be possible to check, and here is this channel, he actually sent a lot of information, there was zero engagement with this, with this account, but he sent a lot of information to the same grayson, then grayson spread it further, and it entered various communities , and that's where the problem lies, maybe it would be interesting to show it to people, but if it's about telegram, and in fact in ukraine, because in france, thank god, telegram is not widespread.

social network, although it is gaining popularity, in ukraine it seems to me that it is simply a must have, and this is a big problem, in my opinion, and it is probably worth showing the ukrainian consumer that, look, the information is not created by these accounts, these accounts simply serve as a delivery of information that is produced by fake accounts, which can be without problems, for example, employees of russian special services responsible for information warfare, well, in particular, yes, i agree with you, because this is what it really is. work with the research of the sources of the origin of information, it seems to me, will now increasingly come to the fore, because chasing, we already talked about this in the previous part of the program, following each fake and trying to disprove it, you know, it’s such a job, it’s meaningless work, because now these fakes can be created, well , just a million, and you won’t have time for them catch them all, that is why it is necessary to... look for and find

ways to deactivate, destroy and literally refute to the root the sources of the spread of these fakes, the sources of the spread of false information, the sources of the spread of manipulative information, only in this way, that is, this is the only way, and return trust in those sources of information that still work, well, cleanly, that work as the very sources, well... the dissemination of information, and not some kind of manipulation? literally two short points vitaly, with your permission, the first short point: there was a study by the massachusetts institute of technology, which says that debunking these facts in principle does not work, because any disinformation travels much faster than their debunking, and the second, the second a small thesis that i would like to say is that, in principle, the problem is with russian, there it is possible to say it differently, here we are in france.

they say manipulation of information, so in ukraine they say more disinformation, somewhere they say fake news, in fact, the problem is not the creation of fake information, the problem is the shifting of narratives and the creation of those narratives that shift... people's ideas about the world, for example, in france we encounter this a lot, because a number of, let's say, information that shapes the vision of the world of people who live in france independently of their citizenship, but those who come from, for example, north africa and from africa, they are, to put it mildly, a picture of the world, it is formed by the russians through representatives who work, for example, in such countries as algeria and tunisia. small and so on, because russians, they calmly give the opportunity to use their content without video content and text content without these media paying them any money for it, and in fact these people who live here, they read this information, they go for the information that is close to them by language,

for example, it can be arabic, for the information that is close to them, because these are countries there of their origin, for example, and so on, and living in france, their world... the media of their countries of origin is being formed, which rely on russian, on russian information, traces of information, in my opinion, this is the biggest problem, and not just some false information as we say. thank you, thank you, denys kalisnyuk, and by the way, you and i can just talk about the question of what to do with the telegram in this situation, this is also a good question, because we have a history related to what we have there is a law that has somehow to regulate telegram, it is mostly anonymous. channels of unknown origin, we never even know which channel is ukrainian, which is russian anonymous channel, in which, well, we may know, the audience does not know that many russian channels pretend to be ukrainian, and there is no solution to this problem, how no, legislative changes, you see, all the dictators here are shouting,

democracy is freedom of speech, that's all, or taking advantage of the flaws of democracy, a democrat is here. will be destroyed, or the right to speak, it will be formed on the basis of registration according to the passport, and everyone must show who produces this or that content, and it will not work any other way now, only at the beginning of this story, because in general we are still, what we are facing now, thanks to social networks, that is, who from them suffered more, authoritarian regimes are on the contrary, or... that they don't like something, they simply tear them down, in democratic societies there, people's brains are boiled, and in general, this is exactly the situation when you have to quote my teacher in moscow, yes ulya skabieva, who said yes, at a lecture to students, that the facts

unimportant, important interpretations, that's all , whatever you do with it, if anyone, they will act when the facts are unimportant. and we will write news here according to the standards, as i was taught 20 years ago, well, who, who is responsible for information security, who will win, well, the conclusion here is obvious, but here the question is not even that facts are unimportant, narratives are important, in the fact that they invent facts, not even in the way they interpret them, but the fact that they interpret what is not there, well, first of all, they speculate. this is one of the moments, well, probably this one a perfect example is when they crashed mh17, killed people, and then, as they worked, they made up facts, well, well, themselves, no, they were engaged in interpretation, throwing out many versions, but the fact is the same, the plane crash, the destruction of the plane happened, and then

they kind of started to outline and interpret it, well, even on smolenka, even i liked it there, i liked it, well, it was very cool, when, for example... after the accident they say: here we saw two planes, well, russian ones generals are like that, well, here are the means of the objective a year of control has passed, there is no second plane, there are no ukrainian planes at all, it was already a missile, the fact that it is on youtube is of no interest to anyone, well, except for us, of course, but such are the realities, well, in my opinion, even a little bit of a different problem, and the problem is that when creating telegram channels, right? some, well, the same ones in social networks, some such permanent accounts, yes, to which people subscribe, read, well, some kind of community is created around this, always in one way or another, and it begins to perceive to a certain extent, not entirely critically, in general, everything

that is the way out, that is, this is exactly how the manipulation takes place, when they can , for a while, give some interesting information, and then just gradually. all this is replaced precisely by some absolutely identical manipulative and reflexive management, including through fakes, through everything, in particular, through interpretations. already did it if your pavel dura, well, it was not the same person who came up with it and it was pavel in general, but his brother, as i understand it, pavel’s brother, but it was his business, and precisely vkontakte, well, i think that it was such a thing that maybe... they didn't quite succeed, because, well, they dabbled

a little in piracy there, this, you know, is quite telepiracy, and that's why it's so easy passed, because the event also closed it down for telepiracy, first of all, and music piracy, but with telegram, they did not make these mistakes, they made a bigger bet precisely on the fact that it is not only some where you can publish something, but this is a messenger that is closed, that is closed from well, that's enough, well... more precisely, for, let's say, for criminal elements, it's a convenient way, first of all, to send messages and communicate, but why, why not some other messenger, why not viber, why not whatsapp, why exactly telegram, precisely, precisely because it allows you to do anything , that is, you can publish there simply frankly, well, sell children, sell, for example, children's organs, and nothing will happen to you, no one will ban you there in any way. nothing will happen, that is, he allows illegal activities to be done calmly, he allows, just this one

messenger is built, that's its main function in general, to be a subversive element that allows people who want to stay outlawed, who want to stay in the shadows, to stay outlawed and in the shadows, that's what basically everyone else is missing, and that's that's why it passes, only in russia, it doesn't work in russia, it doesn't work in russia, it only works. in the world yes, yes, you are absolutely right, in russia yes, you will not be able to work with it, i.e. there is its own absolutely, they can regulate it, yes, yes, when something needs to be done, i.e. democracy, freedom of speech, about the fact that everyone there shouts very loudly, when it comes to the rash, it all ends immediately, because they just cut out the corresponding telegram channels and that's it, people are disconnected, everything is taken away, that is, it's not easy to pass there, well , look, we have a really local

problem, there are some briefings at the president's office, people who are representatives of anonymous telegram channels come there, they are invited there, nobody knows who the owner of this channel is , who are these people, well, in principle, we know some, but they don't admit that they are the owner, it's also an interesting thing when a person is told there, listen, and you own the channel, no, i sold it a long time ago and have nothing to do with it, but if you tell that person, let's close your ... she will certainly mix you with dirt, because you are against freedom of speech, and when a person, well, there is a consumer of information, he sees that a representative of this team, as you say, of some journalistic corporation, is sitting here, and next to him a representative of the telegram-channel-channel or vice versa is sitting with him at some of the last briefings of president zelenskyi, ukrainian pravda, which is considered to be the most popular internet site there, they were not there, they were not invited there, that is, maybe some corporation... invite the telegram channel to some other event, invite, as a person in ukraine in general understand what is media, what is not? well

, not yet, excuse me, but for now somehow, because in fact we now have to go back this way, which we took with mixing sources of information, well, that is, a lot of effort was made, because a certain the number of politicians of the populist plan for them is, well, this muddy water is so incomprehensible. sources of information, mixing one with another, in principle, it was quite profitable, and they actively played with it, now they will be forced to go in the opposite direction, the same, the office of the president will be forced to go in the opposite direction, will it be forced or not will be forced, so what, wait, the rules of hospitality, they are unchanged, only those who are invited come to visit, it's just that if you invite anonymous people, then you either... with incomprehensible roots, well, the person himself is not anonymous, he comes to the passport and shows it, we understand what it is about, what it is about,

technologically at some point there, it seems that it is cool, then you get the support of this telegram channel or something else, and then at the most important moment, they will simply bring out a plate with er shit, and er, and if those who invite ere to visit are unconvinced... people who mimic under the smi, well, then it should not be surprising, well, i think that there will simply be an even more dramatic story, because... the question is not only what uh on the president's office is inviting some representatives of telegram channels to a press conference, that's not the problem, it's that all the chatbots working in state institutions, in telegram, will have to be at the state level, all this will have to be done cancel, transfer to other platforms, you see, there are all these

alarm messages that we monitor, now we have to. to be honest, i am not too worried even that some people are invited to briefings in the president's office, because the president's office knows who these people are people, another thing worries me is that when an ordinary person sees that people are being invited from telegram channels, including pro-ukrainian ones, he may not understand what the problem is with anti-ukrainian telegram channels that exist in the same space, of course he will not be able to, this is the main problem, of course he won’t be able to , because you can control such a channel, he won’t do anything like that, there won’t be any bullshit, but there might be... a channel that doesn’t exist, that you won’t invite, because it’s from moscow, but it will be in ukrainian lie about the president of the country, about the ukrainian army, and you won't do anything, nothing about it, because you can't close it, it's still there, and you don't regulate telegram either, and that's it, wait, you see, it doesn't matter you can, but in telegram there is such an option that some telegram channels there, when you enter their name,

there is a message that this content is prohibited for distribution in this country. that is, it also works in telegram, so all the stories about how they are not under control there are all lies and lies, but the french a little bit, something happened to them , look , they sawed it there in french, and it happened very quickly, so it all works, but it still boils down to something, the same way, for example, youtube works, we have a lot of channels here, which are not banned completely, there are those who... and there are dozens of channels that work anywhere, except for ip from ukrainian ip, technologically there are a lot of options, thank you, we will now take a break for just a few minutes and sum up the results of this discussion, the usual things become unreal

heavy bags are not for me... and a sore back, from back pain, try dolgit cream. long-acting cream relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joint mobility. doolgit is the only yellow cream for joint and back pain. when buying a large package of 150 g, you save up to 50%. march discounts on bronchial tubes. 20% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. in the latest edition of the magazine ukraine. mykola knyazhytskyi tells how russia turned its church into a dangerous weapon of influence. oleksandra matviychuk emphasizes the importance of international justice in in the case of russian war crimes in ukraine. oleg sahakyan analyzes why government reshuffles act as an injection of adrenaline for the state with the country at the center of the main events. buy country magazine at newsstands or subscribe online. damn the stairs, my legs

can't walk anymore. wait, i'm stewing. what, there is no health? but what kind of health is there in the sixth decade. thought until i tried herovital. gerovital+ is a phytovitamin complex that cares for the heart and strengthens the body. gerovital+ - good health, active life. ask in pharmacies good day pharmacy and 1sa pharmacy. gerovital energy and gerovital plus. 500 and 700 ml with a 20% discount. in september, there are discounts on mukaltyn. 10% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. healthy joints and back allow you to lead an active lifestyle. from the field in the joints and muscles, the natural german liver color. helps to eliminate pain, inflammation, stiffness and contains natural ingredients, buy dr. theis's mays with comfrey, in a large package of 100 g. in september, there are discounts on nephrobam, 10% in pharmacies plantain, bam and savings the book of women at war, a joint project of the espresso tv channel and the spirit and letter publishing house. the book is based on the reports of the presenter of the espresso tv channel khrystyna parubiy.

20 stories, 20 fates, 20 women who defended the country. the book is dedicated to women who chose the path of fighting the enemy in the ranks of the military. women at war, search in bookstores of ukraine. with the support of the konstantin zhivago charitable foundation. tingling, numbness or crawling of ants in the limbs arise spontaneously and disturb you. a special complex of active substances dolgit antineuro helps in normalizing the functioning of the nervous system. dolgit antineuro helps to return to usual activities without tingling and numbness in the limbs. capsule dollheit antineuro - help for your nervous system. september discounts on rezi stol. 10% in pharmacies, plantain, bam and savings. we continue the politclub program on the spresso tv channel, my colleagues olga leni, roman tsymbalyuk are in the studio, let

's still try to understand what ukraine can really do, how to resist this onslaught of russian propaganda, which will only increase, and by the way, i have to say, if we're talking about the war period, you just imagine what will happen in the post-war period, i don't even want to think about it now, but it's worth thinking about because it will become part of the political again. .. russia's attempts to influence ukraine by means of information resources, attacks, new ones, they still exist, these attempts cannot, but now there is a war, now the situation is clear, now you cannot say to that person, oh, putin, he is so beautiful, russia wishes you well, because according to these words, some cap will a missile appear in kharkiv or in kyiv and lviv, but what can be done realistically , what countermeasures do we have? then it stopped being a foreign language, our attempts to somehow communicate with foreign media appeared, but this happens exclusively, by the way, at the level of the first persons, because somehow

it is believed that other politicians should not participate in this, it causes jealousy, that is, we every time we meet with a new and new problem that does not give us an opportunity, which is not gives us the opportunity to somehow answer this question for ourselves adequately, there will definitely not be simple solutions, and it is clear how - for me, it is really a little easier now in what way, that well, any person who wants to live, he is perfectly aware that military censorship is the norm, but even now we would not like to have political censorship, but we have military censorship, that's good, but we don't have military censorship, there is censorship itself, there is a lot of it, yes, there is simply an understanding that something can hurt, well, when, rudely saying, a missile threatens to fly at you, then somehow you can be a little bit right about it, that it is censorship itself, it always seemed to me that there should be institutional military censorship, but in israel there is no self-censorship, there is military censorship, you information critical

to national security, even to the surnames of people who die in terrorist attacks or in the war, you agree with, if you remember, since the 14th year, i personally said that there should be military censorship, and i for this , they constantly say that i somehow do not understand the standards bbc, question. there was a flight to the kyiv dam and there was such an epic scene as a rocket fell into the sea of ​​our kyiv. the question, who will destroy the destruction, removed this object, and then put it on the internet and in our telegram channels, which was apparently written overnight, it was posted by russian telegram channels. the question is, why are they all taking off this dam? after arriving, everyone speaks ukrainian and they are all dressed in ukrainian military uniforms, i wonder who filmed it and who posted it? well, well here we are again, romance, we are back again, we are with you again

we return to the control over messengers, but there is simply in the media, there is television, there is everything, why am i talking about military censorship, it should not be, one thing is a photo on a social network, another thing, when you understand that you work in the national media and you do not have a standard. to what information do you have written on the standard, what military information can you report, well, it doesn't exist objectively, then we have military self-censorship, which sometimes doesn't work, well, well, that's what we decided on terminology, but still the problem remains that its, let's say, informational influences have changed a lot, and it's easy to say that the media exist in some such space, where there is only me this will never happen, it will never happen again, we have to admit it, you know, and we have to probably consider and think, after all, what to do when you really have social networks, you have the spread of

unknown people who spread something somewhere, and it still becomes known, and sometimes not really, but really to stop, you know, and i think that after all here it is simple to move only towards the creation of some kind of system of trust in information sources. that it is necessary to promote it more, it seems to me, and it is necessary to work with it, well, i will then answer that, what people are in favor of in our time, when talking, if we talk about times that have already passed and have not come, people want to see that information , which they like, you can, and they will never trust the media that says information they don't like, even if it's true, don't look up, it's the media that keeps telling them to look up, there's a meteorite, and they not they want, but interpretation is important, not facts. well, here, here, unfortunately, unfortunately, you know, here, here they will just go along the path, well, maybe some, you know, mistakes and trials, well,

that is, every time more come. getting hit on the head with a rake and then realizing that maybe we shouldn't have climbed there, well, unfortunately, i don't know if we have such opportunities, to be honest, well, the other path is not really followed, let's prove it rather we are now faced with a situation where rather there should be more of an effort regarding, i i don't know about intelligence there, that's real intelligence on sources, intelligence on malicious actions, more on the exposure of some such things, well... well, unfortunately, yes, yes, and journalists very often can't even cope with it on their own, that's why that this is already a lot of work, or let’s say this, it’s even about work with very specialized knowledge that can attract how many pro-russian media and bloggers there were on the ukrainian airwaves until 2022, frankly pro-russian, as they just said, what we have here must be russia, and they all went somewhere.

as soon as the great war started, as it turned out, you know, the population didn’t need them, some did it ahead of time, but maybe who, for example, some people’s deputies, no, i’m talking about the media psons, there were some mykhailo pogrebinskyi, remember you know, as such, after the 14th year , volodymyr kornilov, the head of the cis institute of ukraine, zatulina, whom we talked about, i can name dozens of such names, various political scientists who sat on various shows all the time, they are for these 10 ... years disappeared, and i could not understand who these people were, when i listened to them and found myself in the same studios with them, and then they once and most of them appeared in moscow, bah, there is no one, and the most intelligent in europe, like kornilov, no, in moscow, he is not in holland , they said that he had already returned a long time ago, what are you doing, he is completely in moscow, he literally works there as a full-time propagandist, he goes to all the broadcasts, every day he is on the air of some

russian tv channel. every day, that is, i am not that he is there sometimes, there is a pool, yes, there is a pool of 20 propagandists, to whom he entrances that wander from one tv channel to another, this is on salary, probably and such a theater is such, the famous karnilov is the answer in fact, there was a period when there were about 50% of people with such views on our broadcasts, and it is becoming less and less less, and no matter what, it still seems like political influence. of the russian federation of the kremlin in these areas, it is decreasing, i hope that at some stage it will be negative, that is, we will influence moscow, well, this is a very good forecast, i think that we can, in principle, just put it in full stop, if we were not again in great danger of changing these narratives, which we are talking about with olga roman, after the hostilities end, we need to prepare for this now, because one way or another we always have to be. armed,

including in terms of information, preparing for new challenges, just as we had to prepare for a great war before it began and not assume that the situation will be as it was for the next time, this is how i think it is necessary prepare for new ones information challenges of russian and not only russian, as we were reminded here, by the way, after the great war, because i am sure that in russia they are already preparing for this, already making plans, their various russians are already working there. research institutes, how to influence post-war ukraine, are already deciding who will do it, are already thinking about how to recruit certain people, this machine is working there, and our machine must work in the other direction in order to stop all this, i thank you for your participation in this program, on my colleagues, the journalist of the host of the chronicle program information war on the spresso channel to olga lenny, journalist romand tsembolko, i was the last ukrainian journalist in russia, historically the last such. there will be

others, well, maybe, but we will already be journalists and such veterans of journalism when it happens next time, thank you, friends, for being with us on this broadcast, victory in peace, good luck.