think about the fact that we've come a long way, here's anthony blinken, the united states secretary of state, he calls rasha today, an organization that spreads propaganda, where russian spies work, and we remember the time in 2017 when the person who worked with rush today and who at the reception in honor of today's anniversary seems to have been at the same table with the president of russia, vladimir putin, michael flynn, do you remember who he is?

just so that he, he, if he, he wouldn't be accused of being an agent of russian intelligence, but in the fact that he is dependent on russia, in the fact that, in the fact that he used russian money, worked for russia there, in the fact that he went to moscow for russian money, simply, simply, he was absolutely compromised by all this, and if the journalists had not written all about it, then he would probably have remained trump's national security adviser, that is, for trump it was all... everything was fine, of course there is a huge problem here related to the fact that in the west, they do not fully understand the nature of these russian media, which appeared precisely in putin's time, that is, they understood that the media in the soviet union were controlled by the party, that all these people were most likely kgb agents or just party workers, that they were not journalists, well, even if some people appeared who they considered journalists, this person still had some kind of party or soviet affiliation. this derivative,

let's say, during the caribbean crisis, they had closed negotiations with the editor-in-chief of the izvesti newspaper, oleksiy medzhubiev, well, he was a journalist beyond reproach, but he was khrushchev's son-in-law, that is, they talked to him not as a journalist, but as a soviet nomenclature, high-ranking, well, just journalists, but in the 90s they began to perceive russian journalists precisely as journalists, and many of them, especially in the putin period, not that it is possible that someone was not a journalist, but from the very beginning was... a chekist, someone became an employee of this new nomenclature, and here is this misunderstanding by the west of the nature of things, it is of course also a sign of reactions to all this information, you know, you know, it is interesting that the west was warned by the former soviet spy yuriy bezmenov, he, he worked under the roof of the apn in canada, but he moved to the west, he simply surrendered, reported that he was a russian. a spy and after that he

gave several public lectures in particular, you can find them, by the way, on youtube, they are in america, and in 1984, he warned about all this, what the kgb would do, about this plan, when, when you will not give up your propaganda of communism, but when they will kill the west. with the help of freedom of speech, using such institutions of the west society, first of all using freedom of speech, that's what they do, that is, they throw these narratives that are picked up by those in the west, who are then used as useful idiots, and it definitely works, look how it worked in the year 16 under the time of the election campaign in america, very successfully, it's not, no, no, i'm not coming. now, if we take

special counsel robert mueller's report on his investigation into possible collusion by then-candidate trump's staff with russia, it's appalling, mueller already indicted several dozen russian gru employees there, precisely because they were engaged in spreading such propaganda, which is under... admired by useful idiots in america, it's really terrible. has nothing changed since then, but we can see from these recent news that, while practically nothing has changed, russia continues to do the same thing. well, you know, unfortunately, we 're only going to see that in the election because, well, that's going to be an indicator, because if the american voter doesn't have an obstacle that, that the people they want to elect. they directly

cooperate with russia, they directly spread russian lies, they literally consume it and it will be the norm for them, well, yes, well, then it’s difficult to say something, it’s well... there are people in america, but in the american province there are people who are they consume with pleasure, because they believe that russia is such a white christian country with which they should be friends, and ukraine does not exist in their coordinate system, this is a minority of americans, but there are many such people, unfortunately, in particular in the american province that votes for ... republicans, well, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, but this is not the first time we've seen this, well , excuse me, well, the day before, or rather, when the second world war began, well, the same situation was there, there were also people in the american hinterland who believed that nothing there is nothing bad in hitler's germany,

moreover, there were whole organizations of friendship with germany, all of them had to be closed down in 1943 simply by regulation and to say yes, they are spies. now it seems to me that it is happening. it's basically the same thing, i 'll tell you, i've had experience with absolutely simple very people, i lived in the american province for quite a long time, in the state of arkansas, and with quite simple people, quite simple people, i was told back in 2008 that they, for example, they will not participate in the presidential elections, why , because there is no one to vote for, because obama is a communist, and mccain is also a bad person, because he, he wants to fight with russia, and with russia you have to... marry, and this is the eighth year, not now, it was the eighth year, well, that is, it was such a request for trump, they in fact, they constructed trump, who did not exist yet, just like that, just like that, just like that, and what to do with such people, and i think that these are such people, i heard it from

one person, from , i can’t say that from many, but from a number of people, ordinary simple people, they live there in hlybinka, they watch tv, mostly there, let’s say, the fox channel, and... all this is their coordinate system, through which they perceive the world, how can you, how can you prove to such people that this is their coordinate system, it is wrong, well, only when a fairly large part of the leaders of public opinion rejects it just like that, and the reason for this is precisely that those who support this ideology are people who work with russia, and they work not just like that, but receive money , this is not ideological cooperation, it is cooperation exclusively. money, well, it must be exposed, that’s what, it ’s happening now, this is the first time i saw when it was really exposed, when all these trump bloggers can’t say that they didn’t know from whom they received millions, because it sounds stupid, what does it mean you didn't know, yes, please, mr. igor, unfortunately, a

lot of time was wasted, because actually, look, it was done for many years, i think that after the collapse of the soviet union, when simply stopped, stopped all these attempts through the communist... western parties to destabilize the west there, and it switched to exactly what they are doing now and whether they have been doing at all during the last 30 years, that is, they are destabilizing the west through these kinds of exceptions, and more of the ultra-right so much of a right-wing nature in order to stir up various contradictions in western societies, particularly in the united states, and this is this, you know, post-information space that we all find ourselves in. when there are a lot of people who just paint a picture of the world in which they believe, and they only accept what confirms that, that, what they believe, whatever, any misinformation that confirms their painted the picture of the world is perceived by them, but real

information is not perceived, that is, if something is not liked, then all this, all this, as they say trump, fake news, is a big problem, so on the one hand, yes, it is necessary to expose, let's say, those... who receive money directly from russia, these are those who simply repeat russian propaganda word for word, but something must be done the other thing is that we need to significantly, significantly expand the possibilities for the dissemination of true information, because if we chase after each and every, let's say, russian fake, we simply will not be able to do anything else, we will not have enough time for anything, we will only to refute this lie a solid one that comes from russia, moreover... well, actually chasing every fake is really a job, i agree with you, absolutely so unproductive, because artificial intelligence will appear now and there will be even more of these fakes, so you have to chase not for a fake, but for a faker, we are needed,

i say once again, we must always work to expose sources, only exposing sources and making their work impossible will be effective. to me, it seems to me that this situation, which is now important from the point of view of the leaders of public opinion, it is, in... is getting complicated the fact that the republican party is simply afraid to argue with donald trump and who he is, those who surround him, that's the problem, we understand that many people who are leaders of the republican party, they have a very clear, clear value system, let's say that there is a sword mcconnell, he already said in principle what you said to olga, about what was before the second world war, about how american politicians and isolationists were, who in one way or another did not allow e.

frank supporters of hitler , who did not hide, they said, yes hitler beautiful, as he says now, as tucker carlson says now, there was nothing different, just different opportunities, you see, but tucker karcen has an audience, there he is, well, from the front. he was kicked out, but he has about 8 million viewers on his former twitter channel, where musk gave him the opportunity to continue doing what he's doing, 8 million is a lot, even, even for a country like america, where the population is about 340 million. 8 million is a lot, that's a lot of people who are getting poisoned with this misinformation. in this plan, of course, it is very important for us to understand. in principle, how should ukraine act here, because one way or another, we are used to the fact that ukraine

is in the american media by itself, american journalists come, tell what is happening in ukraine, and in principle, these are serious american media, they themselves create ukraine's reputation, we don't need to do anything, we just need to fight there, we need to defend our country, we need to do everything that... is possible for the way things are changing the situation in the country, but we see that this is not the case, that only by american efforts we cannot change the image of ukraine in the american media, here the question is what should be the program of actions, mr. vitaly, we need as much as possible so that ukraine is present in american media, in this sense, your english-language youtube channel can play to...

a permanent english-language ukrainian channel, on which true information would be spread, look, today is sunday, i had time to watch a little tv in the morning, i already gave you one link to cn, i will give it now another, here is the program of farid zakaria, a very well-known international journalist, he interviews the un secretary general (vtyerich), he asks such a question that simply infuriates me , and he says: mr. secretary general, what do you think about the russian - the ukrainian war, but ukraine will not be able to liberate all its territories, it will have to cede territories, but how can it be done so that, well, this is a journalist, a well-known cnn journalist, it's good that at least guterich gave him a very dignified answer to this, that is international law and there can be no compromises regarding international... law, that peace can only be restored on the basis of

international law, that of course, each country can decide what it does with its territories, but we, as international nations, can never , we will not be able to agree that one country can forcibly occupy the territory of another, that's how i feel about the american journalist in this case, how deep is the misunderstanding of the essence of things, the essence of things, farid. zakaria thinks that this is a war over territories, over donetsk or luhansk oblast or about crimea, here is a journalist, internationalist, author of many books, popular, by the way, a person in the american world, among american viewers, here he demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what is happening, despite the fact that he was in ukraine a week ago, it is necessary to properly, he spent half an hour with president zelensky, yes, there is a question, a person who... well, had access to all prominent speakers and

communication with them did not convince him, so how did the questions communicate with him then? at the same time, at the same time, it is very, by the way, good that zelenskyi gave him an interview in english this time without translators, that is, he actually gave zelensky the opportunity to address the american audience, because it is very important when emotions are conveyed without a translator, there are accents and maybe... some phrases are not very well formulated, not are important, in america it is very tolerant, but ukraine needs to be on the american airwaves as much as possible, that is, ukrainian speakers who speak fluently. you just have to try to be on the air of american tv channels, to be published in leading newspapers, such as the new york times, our embassy is there, well, it is present in vetery in general, now very often, you know, i can’t say that i watch tv all the time, i just don’t have time for it, but before oksana markarova

was more often and at least they invited on cnn, msnbc, she gave an interview. i haven’t seen her there for a long time, and i think, too, that war is becoming commonplace, although on the other hand, if war is becoming commonplace, why is farit zakaria going to kyiv, if war is commonplace, then it is obvious that a journalist of such a rank may not come to the ukrainian capital don't come and by the way to other places, he met with the military, not only with the president, very different people, it was a big mission, so that cnn really, cnn really covered the war in ukraine, it was really important that.. last sunday's broadcast of foride zakaria was entirely devoted to ukraine, lions from kyiv, half of the program was an interview with zelenskyi, but i am surprised that farid zakaria, even after all these meetings he had, even after all these interviews 'yu that he spent, he has from what he asked today in secretary general of the united nations, it appears that he has a complete lack of understanding of the essence

of the conflict, even though the president of the united states and secretary of state. the united states has been repeatedly told what, what is the essence of this, this war, that russia simply wants to destroy ukraine, erase it from the world map, and ferid zaharia understands that this is a war for territory, that is, for who will own the donetsk region, well, it is actually very unfortunate that an experienced american journalist does not understand such such things, and the fact that he issues the vtr, well... er, and the fact that he asked the secretary general of the un, i am simply amazed. thank you, thank you, mr. igor, igor eisenberg was with us in this program, and olga len and i will continue our conversation in just a few minutes. thousands of ukrainians found themselves in a similar situation, the sofa

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we continue the polyclub program on espresso tv channel, our colleague roman tsimbalyuk, a journalist, former blasskor of the union agency of russia, joined us. congratulations mr. roman. hello, and with us is olga elen, a journalist, host of the gorodnik information war program on the espresso tv channel, well, we are talking about what to do with russian propaganda, in fact, how it has changed over all this time, i will tell you what you watched in moscow the way these people were generally losing some more, i would say. even allusions to the human image, well , you see, under the wording that you have been doing for eight years, someone was a bumble bombast, someone was engaged in

the fascisization of russian society, and in this case they achieved very great achievements and achievements, and it seems to me that everyone admits this, even themselves at the moment they are, but how to fight them, well, everything is very simple, enemy transmissions must be excluded, and enemies must be called enemies. so that later we do not sulk in ukraine that when the deputy of this convocation, it seems that even then he becomes a senator from the ostrakhan region in the russian federation, yes, this is a wonderful story in general, well, i’m just saying that when you, when the state does not fulfill its basic functions, including in the area of ​​security, there are all counterintelligence activities, well in general, experts know that it is all very connected, and information security is for. security in this aspect, as i said, in principle, if we talk about all these people, yes, who later ended up in

moscow, then we are talking about russian propaganda, and russian propaganda in our country are sitting here in kyiv, i am not talking about the number of russian tv channels that influenced the ukrainian audience, i am not talking about the number of pro-russian tv channels that influenced the ukrainian audience, i am not talking about our colleagues who worked for medvedchuk, now great patriots on... on the telethon, here you can even not here, there is no need to name the novel, because it is , well, they corrected themselves, if they were taken for it by half of the community for a marathon, taken for a marathon, well then, well, let's call it a- to another, this is the stage of the nation's coming of age, well, that's it the price is what it is, and is the approval of collaborationism as a norm of behavior, and what is it, well, you have to call a spade a spade, i said my main thesis right away that... that information security is such a complex thing, because when there are enemy transmitters, and everyone knows what money they

work for, everyone pretends that this is the norm, or it is not the norm, and many issues, they are regulated by the political will of the state, it seems to me, and in fact we have done a lot so far in in this regard, well, where is someone, of course. came to the telethon, but we sure they've changed their minds right? not everyone, not everyone is convinced, everyone has changed, well, that's the problem, recently one of my good friends, a well-known journalist, writes to me and tells me that she was invited on the air to uh, one of our colleagues, who is known for her pro-russian narratives was, and now she is a patriot, and she says, well, should you talk to her, well, you can talk, but just... you have to know about her position, and where she was, and who she served all her life, well and what's up with that, how can i say, but she's legitimately in on the ukrainian airwaves, has a reputation, everyone has forgotten

about her past, meanwhile... when the next elections are held, the russian factor will still be there, there will be forces here that will drown for russian money, and with great probability people who, as they will drown us for russian money, but they will no longer be openly pro-russian, so how will they position themselves differently, that they are true patriots, well, i am a clear patriot, yes, this is politics, you know, i would like to for this phenomenon to be at the level of... well conditionally and france, there is also a circle of friends there, but who do not influence any decisions, but if they go back to this side to the black side, it will mean that my assumptions that they have changed are shattered, oh well things, we will talk about france on this broadcast, but now we will talk about germany, we have oleksandr golubev on the phone, analysts, journalists, mr. oleksandr, congratulations.

good, but mr. roman believes that people who promote pro-russian narratives are marginalized in the west, but in my opinion, honestly saying, before, by the way, just on the day of these elections in brandenburg, there is no such confidence that there is such a great degree of marginalization of forces there, which are not ashamed to go to the russian embassy on the occasion of, well, i would say so, rumors about the marginalization of pro-russian forces. in the west are significantly exaggerated, but to be more specific , and it is not, because on the one hand, if we are talking about pro-russian forces, then people who sit in caps of the soviet army and sing some soviet songs on tv shows, well indeed in the western information spaces are not present, unlike... people

who used to do it on ukrainian television, and now do it, now they are, as mr. vitaly says, great patriots on another ukrainian television, but if we go back to the pro-russian forces themselves, pro-russianness is not necessary is necessarily determined by the fact that you say that russia is the best, you can absolutely calmly criticize, so to speak, russia's war against ukraine, but at the same time promote the thesis that it is not necessary to... support ukraine with weapons, because this, they say , will only lead to worse conflict and more deaths. formally, these are not pro-russian views, these are pacifist views, the views of a person who does not want money from, for example, german taxpayers, ah, they were allegedly going to a bad cause, but in reality these people really go to the occupied crimea, they help there

about... they observe, for example, fake elections there, and go to the russian embassy for receptions, then appear in some investigations about what and pro-russian cache that somehow gets out in their election campaigns, that is, this is not the first and not the last case in the west, when a formally allegedly not overtly pro-russian position is actually a defense of russian interests, i think that many... a huge number of agents of russian influence in ukraine have also always been patriots and told about how much they love ukraine, but that didn't stop them from promoting pro-russian narratives or narratives that are beneficial to russia, narratives that are beneficial to russia not only that russia is the best country in the world, but and that, for example, some ukrainians are better than others, or if some ukrainians

are... more correct than others and so on and so on, there are a huge number of opportunities to work for russian propaganda without being an outright pro-russian propagandist, so here is actually not a very simple question, what do we define as a pro-russian propagandist, and accordingly, when we understand who it is, then we can think about how to deal with it, oleksandr, i'm sorry, i'm asking you, i'm just curious, for example, i constantly , since i there... i regularly watch russian propaganda and there are often several deputies from the alternative for germany, they take part in russian tv broadcasts, tune in, tell stories, in particular, they told how their party won certain elections there, that's all, and well they belong there, and their assistants have just now fled to russia, work and are constantly present on russian airwaves, and german society somehow learns about it, somehow reacts to it, somehow it...

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