or if some ukrainians are more correct than others and so on and so on, there are a huge number of opportunities to work for russian propaganda without being an outright pro-russian propagandist, so it's not really a very simple question here, what do we define as pro-russian propagandists, and accordingly, when we will understand who it is about, then we can think about how to deal with it, sorry to ask you, interesting. here, for example, i constantly, since i regularly watch russian propaganda there and there are very often several deputies from the alternative for germany, they take part in russian tv broadcasts, tune in, tell stories, in particular, they told how their party won certain elections there, that’s all, and well, there they are, and their assistants have just now fled to russia, work, are constantly present on russian airwaves, and german society will somehow find out about it. it is granted, somehow

it reacts to it, somehow this information appears somewhere, because this, this, this is a systemic thing, german society, like any society, obsessed with itself first of all, that is, the appearance of these people on the russian airwaves necessarily appears, more precisely, i would not say the appearance on the airwaves, but the facts of the cooperation of these people with the russian media or even with the russian state, well, again, in the role of... the same observers appear in the publications of the media, in the investigations of journalists, literally today i saw a book by the corrections agency in a bookstore at the local station, well, it’s actually a kind of white paper on the european union, which is completely devoted to an alternative for germany, but it’s the same there.. . the majority

attention is not devoted to foreign policy, but to what this alternative is going to do in germany itself, because, well, again, germans sympathize with ukrainians for the most part, but still their shirt or their dringle, they are closer to their own german body, and accordingly, the problems of internal their politicians, they are worried much more, such populists use these as alternatives for germany, for germany and... the sarawagen knyakht bloc, promoting actually anti-german, in my opinion, anti-european, and not only anti-ukrainian policy in the very germany, they speculate on internal german topics that are important to the germans themselves, and there are simply no simple answers to them, but they say that we will come to power and everything, and the order is known, which will not happen, but as long as they did not really come to power, the germans did not yet understand that the answer was simple.

won't be, and that's why they vote accordingly as a sign of protest against the fact that they live badly for these parties, and again, this has little to do with ukraine, so ukrainian topics are on the agenda, but not because that ukraine or russia is perceived as a huge threat, it is perceived by people who understand what it is about, by politicians, the military, many journalists, but the average german is important, his family budget for this year is important and... it has shrunk a little due to inflation, and to him he doesn't like the fact that in a local train he is being approached by some kind of steamer, atypical for german appearance, let's call it that, and he wants it to stop somehow, and the alternative for germany says that we will close the borders, and accordingly, there will be much more in our trains there are fewer shacks that don't look like what we're used to, and here you have to understand that ukraine is in order. daily, but she, so to speak,

well, like the ukrainians at one time had, there would have been an israeli-palestinian conflict, or an israeli-arab conflict, or any war that is interesting to us, we sympathize, maybe some from the sides, and maybe we just want the bloodshed to stop, but we are not involved in this conflict as much as possible, well, it is already interesting what could be seen... it is at a high level at night, that's why gerhar schloeder, who said that he is not just the head of this company that built nord stream-2, he is also a friend of the german people, he gives the germans the opportunity to get cheap gas, and all this was always perceived, that is, putin created it for decades such a network in germany, in the west, which was connected with his interests, by and large, and everything was perceived as the norm, well, now there is some new story, in general, they are being activated by the russians. it is noticeable

very much, talking about the division of germany, that until now the western lands are not the same as the eastern ones, and the eastern lands are literally enslaved, and it is necessary yes... propaganda, russian propaganda is directed, well, again here i resort a little to well, the problem is that, like any good speculation, because i do not have legal... documents confirming that these narratives were distributed by this person at the behest of the russian embassy, ​​but i have every reason to believe that certain german opinion leaders are working openly simply for russian money, not directly for russian money, yes so to speak

envelopes, but for example, in the form of a fee for a book, about the fact that military conflicts in the world should be settled peacefully, through negotiations. forcing some, especially the weak side, for example, such people are public intellectuals, journalists who, well, prosper, get rich because of this, and the germans, again, having a tendency to balance opinions, ah, and other journalistic values ​​and standards , giving these useful and sometimes idiots, sometimes not idiots, a lot of air time. and this, by the way, and the moment of sarah wegenk's popularity, and now, when west germans are watching the sudden surge of popularity of people like tsar wagenkny or such political forces as an alternative for germany, they really say, hmm, maybe we did

need this wall , because we don't want such rampant populism at home, well, i mean, i do hear it half-jokingly from many west germans, but... well enough, i'd say, there's a bit of a joke, i'd say seriously, it is clear that no one will to rebuild moore, but this joke, it reflects very well that in the west they are beginning to think that really the east germans, they work a little bit differently, on the other hand, it is very easy to hear from many east germans that the west is somehow they are isolated, although they... like any similar region, feed the whole of germany, i am joking, but here are the classic methods of paul manofort, ah, which worked in ukraine, they worked, they worked in the usa, they will work in germany, in

a slightly different context, slightly different spices, i would say, but it is clear that russian propaganda inflates these sentiments, here ms. olga is absolutely right, but... the only problem, as and again, like any problem of any propaganda, good, it is based first of all on certain real facts, and these facts are now very clearly visible in the results of this election, if it was best seen in the results of the elections to the european parliament, when you could compare one to another at one point in time, when the whole of east germany voted against the current coalition for the opposition of the opposition christian democrats, yes, they are right, but moderate right, i.e. a normal polypolitical party that has actually existed since the foundation of western germany, all of eastern germany voted for an alternative for germany, because the experience of life in an authoritarian system probably gives

signs, and many germans, west germans, as i understand it, are gradually getting used to the fact that it is necessary to somehow work with these people, and that they are really... less inclined, so to speak, to solve the problems of society in a democratic way, in a non-populist way, let's call it that. roman, here is what oleksandr said about the fact that, in principle, it is perceived and absolutely calmly, such a pro-russian point of view, as a point of balance, we actually always had this idea that it is all about balance, but there are people with a pro-western position, there are people who do not have a pro-western position, they have other positions, they believe andriy derkach for ukraine, belarus, he headed such an association in the verkhovna rada, journalists on pro-russian channels, journalists on oligarchic channels, do you remember how many times they repented journalists of igor's holding kolomoiskyi, after the first maidan, after the second maidan, i stopped counting how many times they apologized for lying on the air, and nothing, and everything continued, i

worked in the unyan agency, for many years, which ihor kolomiskyi, and i have never repented and do not plan to, but i am talking about myself. this is the first, and as far as our situation is concerned, however, it is only now possible to draw parallels there with france, where many invite representatives. embassies of fascist russia on the air as part of this of the bbc standard, and before the full-scale invasion, more precisely, before the closing of the medvedchuk channels, the situation was completely different, and those who worked, made, financed these channels, they were engaged in anything, except journalism, not informing the population, and they were completely different, a different goal, but will there be such channels in germany... like

our channel? by the way, after that the war began, well, i'm not saying that this one stems from different, but to a certain extent, including what is meant, because then vladimir putin looked at him, yes, since i can no longer play this grimace of democracy, then we will go on tanks, but i emphasize once again, i consider it.. which was approved regarding the closing of the russian channels is simply true, the price is the same, so all these things are connected, because we somehow cannot separate tv channels, journalism, politics and life, it is all very there are many people, many interests, well, russian interests in fact, they understood that they would be allowed to kill ukrainians with impunity, well, here you just need to... understand very well that somewhere from 2000

, the russian tv industry in general, like the tv industry, name it, or the media industry in general, was transformed, it ceased to be at all informing, i.e. as such, it has long ceased to be informing, not telling news, it is built on completely different foundations, it is built on the foundations of reflexive management, when from morning to night you ... some thesis of the population in order to lead at the exit keel, well, multiple repetitions of this one theses worked as psychological programming, and this is exactly what medvedchuk's tv channels in ukraine were doing, they covered russian channels, yes, they worked according to the same standard, they were closed not because they gave any other point of view, but because it was not information , in principle, it was programming, but how many, but on the other hand , how many people... with democratic views, did not hesitate to go there in the studio, participate in discussions, now on german tv channels and

oleksandr will not allow lying, they are invited some russian types of experts who tell the same theses and on the same, well, the same principle, as on french tv channels, when russian politicians are invited, and they for some reason believe that they will tell some information or point of view, this not. is not a point of view, not information, it is a reflexive management, the basis of which is to repeat the delusion many times in order for a person to simply repeat it many times to work as programming, that is how it works, and also right now the germans are watching when they this whole alternative for germany repeats it many times, and and and again, well, these are completely different principles, that's the danger, by the way, you dare. besides, the russians have seen that once it doesn’t work anymore, they literally create an alternative information

space, as my colleagues there from the schemes showed, from radio liberty recently, they simply create a large system of information fakes, which is supposed to appear as a real existing information system , i don't really understand what to do with it until the end, it's the same namely, that ukrainian telegram channels are famous, some of which may target the office of the president, while others target the administration of the russian president, but pretend to be anonymous channels. office of the ukrainian president and the ukrainian consumer sits in this system of continuous disinformation, and this is what is being prepared for the german, and let's say this, fortunately we cannot compare the german situation now and, for example, even the pre-war ukrainian situation, because again i will repeat myself fortunately , and russians do not own control or pro-russian politicians, politicians, let's call them that, do not yet own controlling stakes in russian media holdings. unless we know something new, there are only a few publications, purely german publications, which, well,

let's say, from their very ideological preferences, linked to the license and close ties to the former gdr regime, they continue to , so to speak, openly pro-russian or a very poorly disguised pro-russian position, and the majority of... zmi can be said to be really democratic western zmi with their flaws, but yes yes or otherwise indeed, which perform a function. informing, first of all, society, some of them have more, in their opinion, the social responsibility of those who still use tabloid models in their work, but one way or another, this is a system that functions within the western framework and tries

to respect its readers, viewers , the information they provide to them, and the russians, realizing that... in this market they do not have such total dominance as at home, or so to speak against the background of the former soviet republics, which they can simply pour money into and buy half of the media space there or even the entire media space at once, and under the guise of some conventional chicks and other, ah, mr. fuks, in germany you have to... look for two ways, the first is to use the problems of the media themselves , we talked about one of them, it is a false balance, relatively speaking, and german journalists are very often forced to feel responsible, that they can just say what they saw, that it is raining outside the window, if suddenly someone

says that outside the window of the sun, the sun, they must necessarily submit this alternative opinion, perhaps even providing. some background, but like any profession, journalism, even in germany, it is full of very native different people, some are more professional and responsible, some are just lazy and want to get their fee and go home, drink beer and watch football, and these people, people can sometimes repost or publish on websites of quite respectable media, messages of maria zakharova without any context, and so and when actually propaganda does not work, very often, you simply fill the information space with a huge number of versions, which the western media is very often forced to publish, because these versions come from conditionally official persons, and it is considered unethical to ignore this information, but to present it with appropriate titles and context requires a lot of work, skill and, well, investment

of one's own time and effort, and this is one of the ways in which russian propaganda bypasses even those safeguards that are in the western space. i'm not talking about simple procurement of agents of influence who, relatively speaking, have a pro-russian position, thus somehow trying to influence the editorial policy of their own publications. it is very difficult to speak here without specific court rulings, but my practice with some colleagues in germany. allows me to believe that it is possible that some of them are quite the kind of person who has either some ideological prejudices or some financial obligations that force her for some reason to promote a very frank pro-russian policy in her own publications, what motivates them, i unfortunately, unfortunately, i don't know, but i have quite

a few of them, i don't know how justified they are, but i suspect that it's not just the desire of this person, yes. to do, and that this is a systematic work, but even this is not enough, and that is why there is a second column, so to speak, to name it, it is exactly the telegram that mr. vitaly mentioned, which is very popular with the voters of sara wagenknech and the alternative for germany , and the work of telektok, which is in no way controlled by the chinese communist party, but solely by the source funny videos about... cats and dancing, and for some reason the alt party for germany is shown the most there, all the studies show very well that for some reason all parties want to be on tiktok, but the best thing is the alt party for germany, they must be very good at it , or there are some algorithms that allow

this party to be pushed to german voters for some reason on the eve of the elections in germany, and this is not the case. not in any way connected with the interests of the chinese communist party in europe, but at the expense of these, so to speak say, alternative media, first of all, this alternative reality is presented, which is in no way connected with the reality that we can observe with our eyes and hear, and so you can criticize german journalists a lot, but it is still an institutionalized sphere, it ... they can be standards, they can be manipulated, they can be used, but it is very difficult to twist them so that white becomes black, you can pollute the white a little and lighten the black a little, but completeness... it is not possible to make white from black tiktok and telegram it can be done very simply, and that's exactly why

the alternative for germany, the union start and the russians and chinese invest in these sources of information, they are more under their control, they are not under the control of the west, and there you can do anything you want. thank you, thank you oleksandr golobov, we will now take a break for a few minutes, continue our conversation with... in the hands of a specialist, the medicinal plant belladonna, so dangerous in nature, turns into belastesin, an ally in the fight against spasms, belastesin is a medicine with belladonna extract, with gastritis and sharp pains in the stomach, the usual things become unreal, heavy bags are not for my sick back, from back pain, try the cream to... kremgit relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joint mobility. dolgiit is the only yellow cream for joint and back pain. when buying a large package of 150 g, you

save up to 50%. in september, there are discounts on nefrobam, 10% in the pharmacies psyllanyk, bam and oskad. fm halychyna. good music - important news. in september, there are discounts on amiksin ic 10% in podorozhnyk-bam and oskad pharmacies. there are september ones discounts on relief. 10% in podorozhnyk bam and oskad pharmacies. see this week in the program. who did the occupiers put in charge of the captured cities in zaporozhye? i am taking on the temporary duties of the head of berdyansk. but how

did the propagandist promote russian culture in ukraine? kyiv is once again occupied by fascists and neo-nazis. on tuesday, september 24 , at 5:45 p.m., watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko on the espresso tv channel. the verdict with serhiy rudenko is now in the new one. in a two-hour format, even more analytics, more more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the evil of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on , the verdict with serhiy rudenko, from tuesday to friday from 20 to 22. we continue, we continue the politclub program on the espresso tv channel, we are talking with my colleagues olga roman tsymbolyuk, here, by

the way, roman, this is the topic we discussed during the break, it is quite interesting, it is actual pressure also for foreign journalists working in moscow, and you know this very well from your own experience, and what it looks like in general, especially with western journalists who want to stay there, work, write texts. " at one time, i refused accreditation from the ministry of foreign affairs of the russian federation, after they began to put absolute, even undisguised pressure on me, saying that you want to get accreditation, and what do you write here and what do you write there, they delayed the administration with accreditation for months, in the period leonid kuchma, it was still possible to deal with this, because the administrations of the presidents communicated between you, then you were completely devoted to yourself, so to speak , because they simply could make your stay, legal stay in russia impossible, and they used this not only in relation to me, but a certain

roman manekin, do you remember roman manekin? from occupied donbas, well, he was then from unoccupied donbas, he was an ordinary ukrainian journalist, as it were, accredited by the ministry of foreign affairs affairs of russia, but it was an ordinary russian agent, who later turned out to be in the dpr, he received accreditation with a bang. well, your colleague is working, but it wasn’t a colleague, it was an ordinary vasbeshnik, well, it was a russian with accreditation, it seems that the publication that was published was then called donetski kryazh, kryazh yes, and here i can immediately say that he wrote there, that's interesting, i'm not interested, i know one thing that no matter where you work, and regardless of the size of the newspaper, you must go to the shower, and i think this is basic. if the set any correspondent who starts working, and with regard to these things about accreditation, it’s generally very cool, because everything, everything there is very such, such a personal approach, and... and they

understand very clearly that whoever wants to stay in moscow, wishes forever, there is , for example, an icelandic journalist, well, what kind of icelandic is he, if he lives, has lived for many years, he has a russian wife, i also have a russian passport wife, but i never, and at the same time, i did not intend not to stay in moscow , and accordingly, when you are told like, and we won't give you accreditation, that's what you're saying dude, don't let it, i'll go, yes, but there are people who need work in russia. and this is professional prestige, so here, you know, there is such an interesting thing, here you can use the experience of the ministry of foreign affairs, where there are still some terms, what if a person, well, when he so much wants to live in moscow and walk around a ring, well, this gardener, more than fulfilling her professional duties, well, then she has to go to

work, maybe there, maybe there and a salary. the salary is more, everything is fine, so it's in everyone then has influence in their own country, that's the point, someone loses it, and when you don't work in moscow, or when you do? no, when you go there, of course, that is why these people are needed where they work, and obviously, and there is one more important point that roman and i can also say, they are very zealous in criticizing the ministry of foreign affairs of the affairs of the russian federation, this is such a moment, which is generally a challenge... they do not know, you see, after all, these are two russias, they played a little at democracy until the full-scale re- invasion, and then in principle it was not customary to call zakharova shmaroi, although now it has become the norm in principle even for the russians themselves, that is, everything has changed there and if these briefings were there before, they are usually there, well, depending from whom they were very boring and yes

boring and that's it. here, but all the same there were different people who asked questions, there were those who wanted to get an answer, of course, there were those who were there, maybe he was such a herbivore, but still there was the rain tv channel, they they even if you try to ask journalistic questions, you can come and simply there is, for example, a universal chinese question, regardless of what kind of people a person represents, how old he is, how long he has worked in moscow, he always... please comment on the state of russian -chinese relations and their perspective, the question is completely open , simple, and well, it sounds global right away, well, according to zakharova or someone else who is in her place in this matter, at this moment they speak russian there with a chinese person forever yes, well, i think

that after the arrest of hershkovych. and there, in fact , the situation has changed very much in general, because now journalists in russia, they are either under threat of arrest, or if they are not under threat of arrest, then maybe they do not work for their national governments and states, and they still work for the russian government and the state, well, they can't work for russia, but you mean that they ask such a question of the russians because they are not for i think that, yes, i think that.. . now there actually well very soon we will see such a situation, when there simply will not be any independent western journalists left, in principle, well, by the way, i remember the previous arrest, the arrest of nikolas danilov, correspondent of news world report, it was before hershkaroch, but it was gorbachev's time, almost 90, a lot of time has passed, the 99th seems to me like a year ago, something like that, very no, what 99th, 89th. uh,

89, 90, right before the collapse of the soviet union, 89, that was the last arrest of an american journalist, and that, by the way was a huge problem for everyone who worked in moscow, i remember very well then, because my colleagues from various western countries, they suddenly felt in absolute danger, i was meeting with the person who replaced nicholas danilov in the moscow office us news all report after his arrest, conducted an interview just for the youth of ukraine by jeff trimble, who... then for many years was one of the main managers of radio freedom free europe, and i also felt that i was going to this office, i understood that there should be a person from the kgb standing there, and she is watching my movement then, and then, and then, because well, if they arrested the previous correspondent, where do i have any guarantees that they are not monitoring it, well, that's why you, well, you can absolutely understand the atmosphere that will prevail there now, so i think that the conversations in general are kind of…