see you in a week on espresso. an unusual look at the news. good health, ladies and gentlemen, my name is mykola veresin. sharp presentation of facts and competent opinions. for example, if mykola veresin had done so, he would have gone to prison. a special look at the events in ukraine, so it is not necessary to say that the fish is rotting with holo. no, off the top of my head and beyond, who is china then, my heart aches. all this in an informational marathon with mykola in september, saturday 17:10, sunday 18:15 at espresso. the journalist who joined the zsu is political expert who became a special agent, taras berezovyts in a new project on espresso. the real front is a thorough analysis of the main events. reports, comments of leading specialists and experts. analytics from the major

of the armed forces. how to make sense of disturbing news and distinguish truth from hostile propaganda. the real front program with taras berezovets every saturday at 21:30 on espresso. greetings, my name is yuriy fizar, this is an espresso interview, and today it's about that. the visit of ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyi to the united states of america is long enough visit, he arrived there as early as sunday evening, is still there, now at this very moment he is meeting with the 45th president of the united states of america, donald trump. so, who did he meet with, what did he talk about, and what were the pros and cons of this visit. i will talk about this and other things with my guest today, volodymyr horbach, executive director of the institute for the transformation of northern eurasia. mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you,

glory to ukraine. good day, glory to the heroes. and mr. volodymyr, today i correctly read northern eurasia, specifically eurasia, no korea, and eurasia? eurasia, because last time i introduced mr. volodymyr, as the director of the institute for the transformation of northern europe, here it is completely different, namely eurasia, because russia must be included in the transformation, maybe someday we will transform it, but today is not about that, today, as i have already said that we are talking about volodymyr zelenskyi's visit to north america. and to the united states of america before his meeting, mr. volodymyr, we will discuss all the nuances in more detail during the conversation, now i just want your, well, general impression of of this visit, well, i'll start by saying that since president zelensky extended his visit for one more day, you said, yes, from sunday evening, now it will soon be friday evening, so maybe one could think that he liked the visit and he extended his stay in... the united states for one more day, but, but

no, not this time, the visit became scandalous precisely because of the interaction, communication with ex-president trump and his team, yes, the so-called trumpists, including the speaker of the lower house, the house of representatives mike johnson, that made this visit scandalous because of the electoral struggle, let's say, the internal political struggle in the united states. but the final results will be summed up, i think, with the return of the president home and those decisions that he will make already at home, so to speak, including in the internal personnel policy of ukraine, we will see, we are waiting for his return, well, but now let's start with well, not the main one, but one of the main ones: volodymyr zelenskyi planned and met with the incumbent the president of the united states...joe biden

and the presidential candidate kamela harris, that's one of those, i watched these interviews, then i reread the transcripts, and from what i saw, i felt that they were, well, it was announced very seriously and pathetically, from everything that happened, it seems to me that these were, to my great regret, meetings for the sake of meetings, nothing new, well... how many of us were not participants in these meetings, no previous ones, then we can hardly estimate, what new was said in the closed part, or not new, we can guess and even discuss it, but what i agree with, what you say, is the so-called or the same victory plan that was widely announced and i would he even promoted himself so much in the media specifically to draw attention to

this, he formed certain expectations, expectations both in ukrainian society and among our foreign partners, including the americans. in the united states, they expected that zelensky's victory plan - this is what they understand by the word plan, yes, we list actions one, two, three, four, and from these actions, a single strategy, a common goal emerges, and that it is really something new, but by and large the comments of the western press boil down to the fact that this is all this so-called plan, it doesn't change any strategy, it doesn't exist in essence. something new, a new plan, these are simply new requests or demands or insistences, to increase aid to ukraine, first of all military and security aid, well there are different weapons, types, methods and so on, striking deep into russian

territory, all of this is correct, this is what we need, not just here and now, but we needed it yesterday and the day before yesterday, but we lacked it . oh, but there are others, there are other nuances, besides, in addition to this list of equipment, weapons and funds that we need for victory, there is also economic, well, direction or division, some diplomatic assistance, and political assistance, which typically, yes, military, economic, political and diplomatic, four, so to speak say, trunk lines or directions, if that gave the impression. there should be some comprehensive measures or a comprehensive plan, but there seems to be no clear list in all other issues, except for the military, what we need, what, what we can do, well i still, it seems to me that there is no clear list in the military , well, despite the fact that we know, no,

that the request, that we need so-and-so, it is, they even say, well, our partners talk about it, about it, and again there is a list, but there is no list, that we will do in order to so that it is with, well, i think that... that the military is here, there are, there are military aspects that the military knows what to do and there is no need to prompt and there is no need to interfere, here, but what i would like to pay attention to, that here i was curiously interested in what is the least discussed, this is the political part, and what, what political aspects can appear in this plan, and it is obvious that this is what president zelenskyi and the ukrainian side should offer to our partners, well, not what in exchange for... weapons and money, but at least in accompanying this process from his side, and a clear description of exactly what it is, well, it is mentioned somewhere, well, political reforms, for example, but what political reforms, are these elections, are these changes to some

general democratic legislation, are these changes to the constitution , after all, yes, which will allow something to somehow be flexible in something else or, on the contrary, not to give in to something. which we unfortunately do not know yet, perhaps in such, i would say so, not public part of the negotiations, which we will not learn from official reports, perhaps there will be comments, but not unofficial reports, perhaps the ukrainian side proposed some steps to the biden administration to meet their wishes, and these wishes were voiced before and will continue and were not finally satisfied, this is also the topic of ... fighting corruption and related to these personnel issues, which are worth solving, should be solved in order to have closer and more trusting relations with the administration of joseph biden all this time, which have not been solved, well, i want to remind you on the eve of the visit to kyiv of state secretary blinkin on

at the beginning of september, one of the deputy heads of the president's office, mr. shurma, resigned, as if on his own, and this was, in principle , well... written in anticipation of our partners, and there is another deputy to the head of the office named tatarov, who is also criticized by many, many journalists and public figures, and i understand that foreign diplomats as well, well, not publicly, but, but they make it clear that this is a personnel problem, including a problem in ukrainian-american relations, well, maybe this is a solution, or similar decisions will be made or were made? something like that was passed or was promised, something like that to be done in order to, well, if not get full support there for the victory plan, then at least the decisions that were announced yesterday about providing ukraine with financial support there, in the amount of almost 8 billion dollars, it

could be an additional argument for a positive decision, let's say so, but again, we will see all this only after president zelenskyi returns to kyiv and... therefore, we will watch his decisions, especially personnel decisions, they can it may not be immediately, it may not be on the second day, not on the third day, but some reforms in... the government and in the president's office should take place most importantly, well, let's see, we'll wait for the president to return, but look, here's one more thing , to be honest, i planned to discuss this very topic with you a little later, but since you started talking about it, i will start from the main point, let's, let's talk about one more thing, of course these conversations, which we do not know about, they took place on the sidelines, what was said on camera is so only for... general v president joe biden and presidential candidate kamela garis said in general terms

that the united states of america will always be with ukraine until the victorious end and will help ukraine, that is, nothing new, but on september 21, volodymyr zelenskyy told journalists that there was already an online a meeting with the russians regarding future negotiations. what do you think, in all of this, could there have been any pressure from the united states of america regarding this? and how is it possible, is it all connected somehow, well, i'm familiar with it media reports, what about this statement, and i know that this kind of negotiations, even if they are not indirect, as they say now, but online somewhere through the internet, they are still conducted through an intermediary, that is , everyone at the conference is present, but everyone addresses mediator, and the mediator communicates with both parties in turn. both with ukrainian and with russian, here it is important to know what the topic of these negotiations was,

because the fact that such negotiations are conducted, for example, on the topic of the release of prisoners or hostages, or civilians who are somewhere illegally obtained on the russian side, all this happens through intermediaries, we have heard about turkish intermediaries, about qatar, we have heard about the united arab emirates, but for the united states to act as an intermediary in ukraine... the russians have not heard of this before, i think , that this has not happened yet, at least the official position of the white house and the state department remains that ukraine must decide what and how, how to conduct negotiations, when to conduct negotiations, under what conditions, that is, for now , the united states, well, in this way some very hard or decisive pressure was not put on the ukrainian side, well, at least we don't know anything about it, most likely it is so, so it is, but some non-formal influences, advice, there, wishes, formulation of one's expectations , it can be, and it sounds

in the public space, and by and large, both the united states government or the administration of president biden, and our other westerners, our partners, our friends, in fact, those who help us, and their expectations all- however , lately they are leaning towards a certain if freezing of the conflict. that is about the main key, that the main thing is to stop, to stop hostilities, all this is very reminiscent of the phrase of presidential candidate zelensky back then, and he says, how to stop, well, just stop, stop shooting, everything is very simple, you, well, it seemed then, now it is so, and it doesn’t seem to him anymore, but it still seems to our partners who are not included, then, then the question is, in your opinion, is there even a possibility of diplomatic... diplomacy can be used for frozen, as you

say, wars , but only after politicians will make political decisions, and politicians can decide about it, yes, politicians will make political decisions and instruct diplomats to formalize them in some way, diplomats will find a way to formalize, a huge selection of tools, there would only be what is called political will. er , for this, the political will comes from politicians, and politicians cannot afford it, primarily for internal political reasons, but er, because society, well, at least ukrainian society, well, the terms of the kremlin's capitulation simply will not accept, does not accept and not will accept, well, this must be understood, and the russian side is not going to accept other conditions than the capitulation of ukraine, therefore, a diplomatic solution in the search for a compromise, yes in the search for such a solution that would satisfy. both sides simply do not exist, and what can happen, well, what conditions must

be met in order to at least stop, stop the conduct of the conduct, well, the active phase of hostilities, i am not talking about a complete settlement, i think that it is impossible, but certain cessation of hostilities or remote shelling, it is in principle possible when, when a party, preferably the russian federation in our case, its armed forces, so that its armed forces... lose combat capability, when they can be exhausted, or whether the armed forces, or the entire society, or the economy, other resources, can russian society be exhausted, maybe. it's just longer and harder, but it's already starting to feel somewhere, if before it was weak because of this war, well, those who are not physically present at the front and their families, and everyone else, well, now they will start to feel, especially the next, next year will be difficult for them, but there is not

much hope or hope for russian society, more about the exhaustion of their armed forces and... and here it is not even about the mobilization resource, they can and are recruiting new and new, and above all, the moral and psychological resources of the leadership, generals, officers, and most importantly the fighting capacity of their units, they lose a lot of equipment, a lot of people, and it is inevitable that it does not go away, it necessarily leads sooner or later at some stage of management combat until exhaustion, until the loss of fighting capacity, they must be withdrawn from the front line, this is a classic, there are rotations, it is the same in all armies, but russian, russian troops have been conducting offensive operations for almost a year now, but they have started their offensive campaign from the operation near bakhmut, it seems to be october last year, but now we are approaching october again, it is a very long, very long time to conduct offensive actions without a break, without recovery,

so i think that it is almost here, here here, here, the moment of breaking may come. well, we'll see i would like to, very much, i would like to, now the editor told me that before mr. volodymyr and i started the broadcast, volodymyr zelensky was just meeting with donald trump in front of the cameras, before the journalists came out and said something, but now the editor told me suggested that the meeting between volodymyr zelenskyi and donald trump has begun, well, it will be interesting to see what was agreed on later on the espresso broadcast, if anything was agreed on, because it is difficult to talk with donald trump. well, in the end, it's difficult to receive some or other things, which can then be understood, what, what, what, what is meant, but we will see, we will wait, how it will be, and we will return to this, as you have already called it, a little scandalousness of this to the visit, what was added, so volodymyr zelensky went to the military plant for

the production of ammunition, the plant is located in pennsylvania, this is a state that is called a state... such a state wobbles during the elections, that is, they cannot understand in any way who they should vote for, for republicans or for democrats, so he went to this factory, it's great that he went there, really, it's good that he met with these people too, i have absolutely nothing against it, the only thing that seems wrong to me is that he went there with by three senators representing the democratic party, until the elections, which will be held on november 5, there is a month and how much and a week, well, two weeks left to go, was it short-sighted, it seems to me that short-sighted, even more short-sighted, it seems to me that there were several days ago, speak in on the air of one of the american tv channels about the speech of the candidate for vice president from the republicans, that is, the one who can work with donald trump, jd vance, as volodymyr zelenskyi called his

statements of jd vance about ukraine, that we should somehow the moment to surrender to sacrifice their territories'. although i, as a ukrainian , do not agree with this, of course, but volodymyr zelenskyi on the air of an american tv channel called too radical statements, i did not like it, if in the first case, during the visit of volodymyr zelenskyi to military plant with senators, democrats, it was not liked first of all by the trumpists, who are represented in the house of representatives, as well as in the senate of the congress of the united states of america, and there even uh... one of the leaders, one of the committees of the house of representatives, even initiated an investigation, but he is again part of this group of trumpists, they did not like it, the trumpists want an investigation, why, because they consider it an influence on the election campaign in the united states of america, so in the second case, when volodymyr zelenskyi called jaydy vance's statements too radical,

then i've already looked for even non-trumpists who are unhappy with this, for example. senator john cornen, who can replace mick mcconnell, is the incumbent, the republican leader in the senate, and by the way, this john cornen was one of the 22 republicans who voted for the aid in ukraine, when the trumpists blocked the aid, so this senator said on the air of one of the american tv channels, quote: i think this is a colossal miscalculation. president zelenskyi, if he wants ukraine's support, he should stay out of american politics, and by the way, the same, practically the same, well practically. repeated word for word by his colleague, who was also one of the 22 senators who voted for the allocation of aid to ukraine, this is senator whip john tum tun, so you understand, this senator

whip john tun, he even argued last year with ron desantis, the governor of florida, who said then that support for ukraine has nothing to do with american security at all, and therefore we need to rethink support of ukraine, but this particular senator said that no, it was the support of ukraine in this war with is a very important element in the american security policy, so both of them did not lift a finger at volodymyr zelenskyi, but they clearly said: you want help, do not get involved in american politics, mr. volodymyr, there are more questions than answers, whether there are any answers, but well and there are questions, and answers, there are even options for answers, maybe you can go through them. but i will say this here that this advice should not get into the internal politics of the united states or the american election is a very practical advice, er, and if it had been done

before the visit, it would have been worth it without this advice, and now it looks like a scandal, conflict and accusations, including from er american senators or members of the chamber or congressmen, that's what the main key problem is and about the bill... i'll say it, the mistake of the ukrainian delegation, not only president zelenskyi, he heads the delegation, but there were people who prepared, conducted negotiations and so on, so the key strategic is that when you arrive, what when in america has a presidential election, especially one with such passion and such high, high stakes, it's like stepping into a minefield, you never know where something will blow up... where, where, where a mine is laid, either you or you will be accused either of saying something wrong or of not saying something, this can also be perceived as guilt, not saying something in someone's

support or in someone's excuse, and the beginning, as we now see the problem was laid when president zelensky announced that he wanted to present his plan victory not only for president biden, as the incumbent president, on whom the decision here and now depends. but also to both presidential candidates, so to speak, to cast their bait for the future, well, to build there, to try to establish a connection and build with both candidates in the event that one of them still wins, that is, with we will work with them, continue this plan, and this was, in my opinion, a critical mistake of our ukrainian strategy in this case, which did not take into account the psychotype of donald trump, he is not the kind of person who... will put up with the fact that he is put on the same board with his opponent, yes, he immediately from the press, we now learn that he wanted to meet with president zelensky on his territory, at his rancho maralago in

florida, yes, it would be a private he was just like that in a private atmosphere, just like with orban before, zelensky would have been just like that, a private guest at donald trump's estate, and our side quite rightly regarded this as undesirable. it really would have been if it had been signaled society that zelensky is a friend of trump, they, they are friends, and everything will be fine, and this is like a form, so to speak, well, almost campaigning for trump, and the ukrainian side asked for a meeting on neutral territory, and this is obvious, well, they did not like it to donald trump's election headquarters, to him personally, and that's why the harassment about the visit to pennsylvania, this all started with... when to build a scandal on this, if you did not agree to our terms, then you are an enemy, then you work for our a competitor donald trump yes, yes and said that apparently zelensky is interested

in the victory of kamala harris, that is why he behaves as if. although there was absolutely nothing in the visit to this plant, nothing so seditious or pre-election, the fact that congressmen, republicans were not invited there, maybe in... there was some kind of malfunction, i think graham would definitely go, well they are now all focused on their constituencies, on their election campaign and on someone else's territory to waste time, there will be no time, there is, but the fact that, well, the nuances are not taken into account here, that after all, this is the hometown, well, the city where the current president biden was born, this plant is located there, and therefore trump and his... his team still perceive biden as their main opponent, it was not considered to me in the morning, and there is a definite jealousy towards him for his homeland, well,

there are many psychological nuances. which in fact , well, they don’t speak badly about zelenskyi, but rather about the ukrainian delegation, but they speak well about donald trump, his psychology, assessment of approaches, this is a certain hysterics, narcissism, and others boastfulness and all other characteristics, we know him from his previous presidency and now he behaves in the same way, but it is interesting, please remember what you want, we have advertising, we are now for a few minutes of advertising ideas. we will leave, we will not leave, we will be waiting for you in a few minutes to continue the broadcast.

well, let's continue, my name is yuri fizar, as usual, volodymyr horbach, the executive director of the institute for the transformation of northern eurasia, is with me in the studio, and we continue to talk about the visit of the president of ukraine volodymyr zelenskyi to the united states of america, what happened during this visit, with whom he met, what he talked about,

and so on and so on... by the way, while you were watching the advertisement, information appeared, literally bits of information about , which has already happened, because this meeting is probably taking place somewhere now behind closed doors, behind closed doors, which happened during the meeting of the approach of joe biden and volodymyr zelensky to journalists, so volodymyr zelensky at the meeting with trump said about that they have a common point of view. trump did not miss his favorite topic and once again reminded about it, reminded everyone, because we have already heard it many times, what a good relationship he has with putin, and volodymyr zelenskyi answered it, i hope that our relationship with you is still better , than with putin, well, i wish they were better than with putin, but you never know what kind of relationship you have with donald trump, because he is a man who can become president, but as we know, this man

even in the post of president could say. today one thing, tomorrow something else, the day after tomorrow to return to the first one, well, that's why, but i still want that this relationship between volodymyr zelenskyi and donald trump would still be better than that of trump and putin and that they would agree on something, all the problematic situations that have arisen between them have been resolved. mr. volodymyr, something about you, i have the impression that there have never been worse relations between trump and zelensky than yesterday and the day before yesterday, and it was the lowest, so to speak... because donald trump, in principle , communicates at his rallies by communicating with his the voters and the press, well, if i used crude criticism of president zelensky and of ukraine in general, that is, in principle, by and large , it could work as anti-ukrainian propaganda, well, this is style - this is a showman, we must understand that we are dealing with two showmen , well, people from show business who

entered politics. show business, quite narcissistic people and perhaps historical places, especially donald trump, and their meeting today, it could bring, well, an explosive mixture, lead to a huge, even bigger scandal, because the way communication took place between our delegation and the republican headquarters of trump and the republican party is a scandal, and it is very interesting and unexpected. that this scandal is now being tried to be hushed up, and both sides, formally the ukrainian side has turned to the headquarters of donald trump for the organization of this meeting, which is currently taking place, but taking into account everything that was said earlier by the republicans, the rest of the congress and trump himself, what...