that at that time they believed that there was a danger of a nuclear attack on ukraine, and in that situation they decided to communicate how they would act, and i think that this conversation between bertz and naryshkin, it convinced putin that the united states would not be greatly frightened, if, let's say, he launches a nuclear attack on ukraine, that this does not cause them some feeling of an apocalypse to their own interests, and then it can be considered that they have free hands, that in principle they can... continue to help ukraine, because they are not afraid of the consequences of some too serious russian reactions to your help. then it is necessary to change the situation, then it is necessary to show the west that the problems will not be with ukraine, but with those countries that help it. this is the meaning of changing this nuclear concept, that if it is not a nuclear state, then ukraine, let's say, strikes with conventional weapons, but manufactured ones.

of a nuclear state on the territory of the russian federation, then this nuclear state is considered an accomplice of such an attack, and even if this nuclear state uses weapons for strikes on the territory of the russian federation, of course, it is not the nuclear state that uses them, but ukraine is using, but the weapons of a nuclear state, then russia can respond with nuclear means if this will threaten its national security or the very existence of the russian state, that is, what is meant by us, if we simply say: ukraine strikes with british missiles, conventional , and russia responds to nuclear strikes on britain, or on american military bases, if it is an american missile. this is the idea, and he suggests that they think, well, you absolutely do not feel sorry for the ukrainians, if you are there, you are ready to sacrifice the ukrainians there, if i carry a nuclear strike as part of our global standoff, and you don't want that to be any serious risk to... and we've already

understood that, and you're ready to sacrifice yourself, you're ready to make decisions that will lead to a nuclear strike on london or on new york , well , just curious, this is the essence of this new blackmail, it raises the stakes to a possible nuclear clash between nuclear countries, and says that even if you are not a nuclear country, you transfer conventional weapons that hit the territory of a nuclear state, this nuclear state you will be answered there, which you are about to show not ukrainians, everything is clear with ukrainians, you... that is, he will decide what is important to you: the life and safety of his own citizens, or the readiness to continue to fight the russian federation and deny it a natural sphere of influence, that is all this blackmail, that is, it is meant it's not even blew, or it's naplef, it's a transfer, mr. andrii, of this diplomatic dialogue from a completely different level of confrontation. and that's all for you. and do you think it will work or not? i'm not i can't

say that for sure, because again, it depends on the intelligence, and not from putin's declaration at the un security council, the russian federation, i apologize, because by and large, as you understand, the americans again rely on the real information they have, which comes first from the analysis of open sources, secondly - from the analysis of closed sources, thirdly - from the report of agents who work for the cia and other western intelligence agencies in higher education. to the russian leadership, we understand that such people exist, and they regularly transmit information, and disinformation, of course, about real intentions of the russian leadership, because in politics, well, serious politics, i mean, all these meetings and all these speeches do not matter, only what is decided behind closed doors matters, when it comes to the possibility of nuclear war, it certainly does what matters is what happens behind closed doors, i always say that any words of putin for... always have to

be taken seriously, because you know, when every statement of putin's is called a bluff, it really surprises me, i wish you to remind that when in 2021, putin threatened to attack ukraine, however, everyone also said that he was bluffing, and that all this was done specifically to induce the west and ukraine to make concessions, that this is a bluff, the majority of ukrainian politicians and experts, if you remind me, er... we talked back in january 2022, when i advised to take seriously the statements of the former president of the russian federation dmytro medveyev, who in fact published this plan of the future attack on ukraine on his social networks, everyone said that medvedev is a clone that consumes a lot of vodka, well in his case, vodka, and it is not necessary to take seriously what he says, although it is clear that none of dmytro medvidev's posts are written by dmytro medviev himself. this is part of

information and propaganda operations in the administration of the president of the russian federation, the office of the press service of the president of the russian federation, which simply reports certain narratives on behalf of medvedev. so, in principle, to perceive any of putin's statements as a bluff is to dig one's own grave, for any statements of putin regarding a possible attack on this or that country, and regarding the use nuclear weapons, and the readiness to fight for a long time should be taken absolutely seriously, as a real threat, and to prepare for such a threat, but you and i are not talking about this right now, because it is not entirely our business right now, it is already the question to our allies, how seriously do they... seriously assess the level of such a threat today, you do understand that in order to take such a step as the use of nuclear weapons in principle, it is necessary to conduct real nuclear exercises, not these virtual exercises that are currently being conducted russia, by the way, too such a propaganda step, as you understand, is important in its activities, but the real training

is on the training ground, on the new land, with which they scare all the time and say that they are ready to conduct them and that they will conduct them at any moment, and they not conducting only that... that the united states does not conduct them, in fact, in fact, if there are no such exercises, then they cannot themselves assess the effectiveness of their own nuclear weapons, that is, all this will not happen all at once, but gradually, but the fact that we of course we slip to a possible new escalation with the use of a nuclear component, i have always said, i believe that it is not the determination of the west in confronting russia, it will eventually lead to... such an outcome, why? because there is an idea in the west that they are simmering this frog, so to speak , and they are not giving putin the opportunity to go into a hysteria that would allow him to use nuclear weapons, actually putin has a sense of impunity, he has

a sense that the west fears him, and even when he's bluffing, he means it can actually carry out his threats, why... there was no nuclear danger until this day, i can tell you, because russia by and large still does not feel that these goals of the so-called special operations, which were set, that is, the destruction of ukrainian statehood, the transformation of ukraine into either russian territory or russia's sphere of influence, that they cannot be carried out, it is simply believed that it will take more time, and many observers who speak to representatives of the russian political elite see that moscow is absolutely certain that they are winning that it is a matter of... time, well, not three years, yes five more years, well, in principle, it does not matter, because for russia this is a state of confrontation of war, it is natural, well, we will fight until 2030 , well, until 2032, but why go for such a global escalation and use nuclear weapons, when ukraine is still destroyed, semi-destroyed,

destroyed, semi-destroyed, with 30 million, with 5 million, it does not matter that this territory will sooner or later become part of russia, but if the very nature of the game changes and... if russia begins to realize that it is not going to get anything, if it sees its own infrastructure facilities being destroyed by western missiles, this of course changes the situation itself, and here we do not know how putin behaves in this situation, whether he understands , that it is necessary to at least suspend or stop this war, he may also be a supporter of this option of further development, or he may consider that this latest evidence in the form of... the use of nuclear weapons will at least help to intimidate ukraine itself, so that not so much even its leadership, but for its society to realize that resistance to russian ambitions will lead to absolutely nothing, and it is better now, after such a first use of nuclear weapons, to agree to some more or less

comfortable terms of surrender than to live in a situation of waiting for new ones nuclear strikes of russia on ukraine, this can be such a part of bluff, you understand, but again, to what extent... this bluff can be carried out from a military-technical point of view, you should ask this not from me, but from the director cia. well, we will definitely follow this, because i really agree with mr. vitaly, who says that we should respond to the words, actions, and threats of high-ranking officials of the occupying state, and not reduce it all to some kind of mockery. above this, only, as they say, in a healthy real analysis and healthy real reactions to certain statements, we can see the truth. we have a short break, a few minutes, and we will return to

the live broadcast of the saturday political club, do not switch from the espressa tv channel.

we are back, live ether, the saturday political club, we continue to summarize the most important events of the current week, and perhaps the most important thing, what was on the lips of the whole society, all mass media, is the visit of the president of ukraine volodymyr zelensky to the united states of america. the visit lasted more than 5 days. the president met with the leaders of the united states of america with the us president joe biden with the vice president and democratic candidate kamala harris, and in the end he still managed to meet with another candidate for the post of president of the united states, donald trump, even after a certain scandal. in general, the president presented during this. the meetings of the victory plan also met, by the way, with congressmen and senators,

there were meetings with the defense industry of the united states of america, well, in short , many, many things. mr. vitaly, if we summarize like this first, how would you characterize this visit, or, relatively speaking, was the victory plan, as they say, really positive. presented, did this trick work with him, and did it work, you're talking about again the victory plan, mr. andrii, and you noticed that during the last days of the visit , almost nothing was mentioned about the victory plan, so no one spoke anymore, that is exactly why i am asking you, how would you characterize all that happened in the context of this, well, this is what you and i talked about last week, when i asked you, and what is the point in principle of providing some kind of plan 40 days before the presidential... election of the united states, because if you really want some kind of

strategic interaction plan, then you need to present this plan to the new president of the united states states, the president again said that there is a need for some decisive changes there, to ensure a decisive end to the war even before the presidential elections in the united states, i do not understand how, frankly, when there is a month left, there are no miracles in the war. moreover, in such a war, in which the russians are now advancing, not the ukrainian troops, i understand that if we were to advance there and we did not have enough strength, we would need a few more echelons of weapons to break through the russian defense there, but now another situation, now the situation that we we are losing positions, we need help so that we do not lose them, so that we stop the russians from attacking our territory, and it has been like this for a long time, it has been happening for almost a year, this is the first moment, the second moment... me both then and now i told you that i considered it absolutely correct that if the president of ukraine arrives in

the united states for the session of the un general assembly, then he should meet with the current president and with the candidates for the post of president of the united states, because the ukrainian president actually has a great political choice there is none, unless he goes to the un general assembly session before the presidential election in the states, he is thus... disrespecting the current administration, right? i did not come not to meet you, because i do not know if you will win, and what you have done for me, for my country for four years in a row, it does not matter much, i will talk to the winner, it is so impossible, that more that we understand that there is a person in the current administration who absolutely has a chance to win the presidential election 5 november, so you are coming to the session of the un general assembly in any case, if you are coming, then it is customary. you have to maintain a balance and meet not only with the current president, but also with the candidates for

the position of the president of the united states, and ukrainian presidents always tried to do this, and it was not always successful, you remember that in 2016 there was also such a problem, so that donald trump practically did everything in his power not to meet with petro poroshenko, and now by and large donald trump was doing everything in his power depended in order not to meet with volodymyr zelenskyi, the fact that this meeting took place suggests that even in oto'. trump now has influential circles that believe that such a meeting should take place and are influencing trump in opposition to trump himself and those of his, i would say. nicks, assistants who believe that he does not need to talk to zelensky, but this is how zelensky got into this meeting with trump, i wouldn’t even say an unexpected scandal, it would be very good if there were no scandals, into a scandal that programmed by the very logic of the presidential election campaign, why? because there are certain points, certain topics on which one contender

can build on another, there are many of them, and they primarily concern... externally domestic politics, but in the foreign policy segment - it is the middle east and ukraine. and by the way, when it comes to the middle east, there is also an exchange of statements that is absolutely incredible, that is, when donald trump says that if he is not elected president of the united states, it will be the fault of american jews, no american politician has ever allowed himself to do the same during the election campaign, but donald trump understands that he... to show how much his ideas about the security and the future of israel will differ from the position of kamela garis, it is absolutely the same with ukraine, when kamela garis met with volodymyr zelensky, she spoke not so much with volodymyr zelensky as with donald trump. she explained why her position on ukraine is diametrically opposed to the position of donald

trump, and this is largely due to focus on states with swing voters. the participants of her election campaign, in particular, this story with pennsylvania is famous, when kamela garis, during a debate in pennsylvania, addressed the poles in pennsylvania, said: "look, this person wants ukraine to fall", and these will be problems for your homeland, for poland, for polish-americans in pennsylvania, and then there were posters in pennsylvania, appealing to the polish diaspora of pennsylvania, and now zelensky is going to a weapons factory in pennsylvania, right? where is governor shapira, where are these poles, in this way, as if from the point of view of the republicans, supporting the entire garis company with their own presence, it is no longer just an appeal by garis, it is no longer just crying, and now zelensky himself, well, it is obvious that this annoys the republicans , and they are just

freaking out, and in this situation, i think that the letter that the speaker of the house of representatives of the american congress. johnson sent an ultimatum to volodymyr zelenskyi about the need to refuse the services of the ambassador of ukraine to the united states ms. oksana markarova, but this is precisely the sign of this, i would say, harsh reaction, but clarifying whether it was possible to avoid such a scandal in some way from the point of view of our authorities, that is how to structure either the visit or the behavior. forge a model in order to smooth out the corners as much as possible and avoid this scandal as much as possible, or was the scandal that arose because of the visit to the zelensky plant in pennsylvania already laid, and it could not be avoided at all? well, look, zelensky is not

visiting the military plant for the first time, he has been there before there is such a governor at the factory'. it was earlier, a few months before the election, and it didn't cause anyone any reactions. of course, from this, i would say, purely professional point of view, if you come to the states a few weeks before the election campaign, you don't need to meet anyone at all, don't go anywhere, don't visit any factories, limit yourself to three meetings: biden , harris, trump and all. but i would like to remind you of one important thing, here we are talking about this plant, yes, and i saw an interview with senator linze graham, it seems that said that the plant is fine, it does not cause real emotions, it is only an excuse for our irritation, because it is clear that this is a state plant, zelensky went to this plant as

the president of a country that needs weapons, with him the governor is also a state plant employee, well, all this, so to speak, is part of the protocol, it remains to be seen how easy it is to refuse this protocol when it is offered by the white house, as part of zelensky's stay in the usa, but we were really puzzled by zelensky's interview with the new york magazine, ugh, in this interview zelensky was quite skeptical of donald trump's approaches to the end of the war in ukraine and disapproved of this concept. the republican candidate for the position of vice president of the united states , jadzie vance. but here again the question arises. then it turns out that the president of ukraine, in principle, should receive. from any evaluations of the intentions of american politicians regarding his own country during the presidential

election period, and one can learn why, why all other western politicians can evaluate words biden, karis, trump, vance, well, the same viktor orban, let's say there or someone else, they absolutely calmly comment on various statements of the american administration that... the war in ukraine, or the statements of garis, right? and no one believes that this is interference in the american elections. why exactly, when zelensky in the new yorker magazine talks about his attitude to jd vance's position, which is a challenge to the national security of his country, he does not discuss jd vance's views on the situation on the border between the united states and mexico, truth? he is talking about ukraine. why, from lynsey graham's point of view, this is election interference. therefore, a very simple question arises here. what should you not do, so as not to inflate them? in other words, at this time

of the election, how can you make them think that you are not annoying them, maybe you are annoying them by the very fact of your existence? well, that is, if we still take it as an axiom that the problem is not in zelensky and not in his behavior and not in the protocol and not in the way he goes somewhere, and not to look for any unprofessional moments in the activities of the ukrainian delegation there or in... . our own president, even if we can find them, we can sit down there and find them and offer our help to speaker johnson, and if we still agree that this is not a reason, but an excuse, that it's just that the trump campaign is built on an idea, that he is the president of peace, and haris will be the president of war, and he said it at a pre-election rally in north carolina, and he said it before the meeting with zelensky, and he said it during the meeting with zelensky. and he said this after meeting with zelensky, so what can he do to do zelensky to change this, this pre-election position of his, not at all, that is, the problem, that is, the problem in essence, well, again

, in my opinion, not even in them, but the problem in him, that is, in trump, in essence, it is trump he made all this mess, and by the way, trump said something that in principle does not fit in his head, and that in general is far from any diplomatic etiquette, i don’t even pay attention to the fact that, relatively speaking, something could offend, for whatever the phrases are worth, there is no ukraine there, it is almost there destroyed, millions of people died in ukraine, destroyed, destroyed civilization, destroyed cities, in fact, he said that there is no such country, well, i’m sorry, it was just a stream of lies, a stream of fakes, and these things are far from any protocol... even, well, i am silent about diplomatic protocol, any even the adequacy of running a political campaign, why, well, if

trump knows that the people he is addressing want to see such a picture of peace, ugh, in ukraine there is such a picture of the world in which they are, then he paints such a picture for them, by and large, what trump said is exactly the same story as with these haitians who eat to... animals, remember, that's how he saw it on tv, you have to, you have to understand, trump doesn't invent anything from himself, he saw something, someone told him something, he talked to someone, this is how trump generally builds his information campaign and his vision of the world, from conversations with some people he trusts. this is what trump is telling, it means that there are some people who are close to him, who are all this to him they tell, he perceives information that way, you will understand. trump is not a person who sits day and night with a newspaper, the new york post or the new york times, and studies some serious

news, reads some official memos, as you remember, when he became the president of the united states, he even refused reports intelligence services of the united states and said that he does not need all these documents, he is not interested in it, he works differently, he removes some people whom he trusts, the quality of these people is already on the conscience of donald trump. these people can live either in their own own world, or be guided by some narratives that are beneficial to those with whom they themselves cooperate, and they put all this delusion in his head and he then broadcasts it, this is reality, and by the way, one must clearly realize that when he becomes the president of the united states states, if it becomes, it will be what will determine his policy. well, i'm not talking about anything else, you see that zelensky met with him, but can we say that he convinced him of something, no? trump continued to repeat in the presence of zelensky. that he is on good terms with zelensky and he are on good terms with putin, that putin wants to stop the war, and that this is a wonderful vision, that this is the way to act, and one must understand what if trump becomes

president. of the united states, then he will clearly tell zelensky that he is on good terms with putin, and if zelensky wants anything in the world, then he should talk to putin and with him as friends, well, if they are on good terms, and all these zelenskyi's phrases that putin killed many people, destroyed them, somehow they do not scare trump, trump says, that ukraine is destroyed, that millions of people have died in ukraine, that children are fighting in the country, that this is a terrible situation that has never happened before. true, but at the same time, he considers it absolutely normal in this situation, from a political and moral point of view, to be on good terms with the person who did all this, well, according to his own statements, destroyed the whole country, killed millions of people, be it even there is a lie, but we are talking about now quoting trump himself: fights with children and old people, and with this person he is donald

trump is on good terms. and why, the question arises, and what kind of friends do you have, a good question arises, why should this person, who according to your own version committed such crimes, be your friend, why are you on good terms with him, should not be, well no i know, this makes me wonder too, but if we're talking about the fact that trump changed his mind after all, that is, trump basically first, as they say, threw this pre-election ... campaign of mike johnson to the forefront, yes, that is, hurry up mike johnson did not make such a decision himself, most likely that it was the decision to write this letter in a very aggressive, non-diplomatic way, regarding markarova, regarding the actual support there by ukraine, zelenskyi, the alleged democrats, yes, this is in essence, most likely it was trump who was an accomplice of this, this is the first thing, or trump's team, or trump's team, yes, yes,

or his team, or that environment, which. that trump has, and then trump changes his point of view, still meets with zelensky, here his technologists or his entourage told trump that it is still better to meet and to show that he is such a president, supposedly the future of peace, or is it just that every day trump has a different point of view, in principle, on something, because very often, and i honestly don't think so, you know, we just watched very often. that trump says one thing on monday, another on tuesday, a third on thursday, and a fourth on sunday. well, look, i don't have any precise understanding at all, whether the meeting between zelenskyi and trump was agreed upon at the time of zelenskyi's arrival in the united states. you and i have it too remember that on the ukrainian side, we have a team that believes that it can agree on everything and inform about it in advance, because it cannot but meet with zelensky, right? we live here in the same situation

as there, and that's imagination. personally, they were preparing this meeting, they had no confirmation, but here in the background of preparing this meeting, that they asked for a meeting, there is a trip to this plant, and trump just starts to get mad, why do you want to meet with me here and i don't a knife in the back, you spit, ah, i'm yours i will show, and begins to declare all this, this may not be the cancellation of the meeting, mr. andriy. this may not be a confirmation of a meeting that was not agreed upon. but what happens next? next, you need to show strength, but also nobility, respect for the one who recognized himself as defeated. trump is not just meeting with zelensky. he publishes a letter from zelensky in his social networks asking him for a meeting, remember, right? this letter,

which... was sent by one of the ukrainian diplomats on behalf of zelensky to the name trump, dear donald, we need to meet, talk, i really respect, all that, well, as if zelensky is apologizing, admitting how great trump is, well, well, trump is ready to meet with him then after this letter, but i want to remind you that in other heads of state had no problems meeting with trump, no one made any claims to them, no one demanded letters from them, no one... published this official correspondence on social networks, but the desire to humiliate in this way was only shown in relation to zelenskyi that he has me there to respect and understand how great i am and what i did not lead and what he did not lead, this was not the case with the prime minister of great britain keir starmer, his team arranged a meeting, they agreed, they had dinner with the president of the united arab emirates, how do you know?