it is a very difficult situation and uavs will help improve this situation for the benefit of ukrainian fighters and save the lives of our defenders. your donation will increase the effectiveness of actions against the enemy. our goal is uah 890,000. please join if you see the props on your screens or have seen them. it was 5,000 we collected for the program. i would say that it is good, but it is not enough for me. not to me, to our soldiers. enough, this was the penultimate information, the last, i wish everyone the best, victories and see you soon, mykola veresin was with you, all the best, congratulations, friends, the politclub program is on the air, vitaly portnikov is with you. on september 29, ukraine

marks a sad day, the sad anniversary of the genocide in babi yar, this massacre became one of the symbols of the holocaust of the 20th century, in the ukrainian case of the kul holocaust, and every year we talk about why violence continues to be the norm in the life of our world. why... the sad experience of genocides does not teach humanity anything, and it is especially relevant. this topic, one can say, has become in recent years during the years of the russian-ukrainian war, because we at the same time, we are discussing with you the topic of genocides that took place during the second world war, and we are talking about new victims of russian attacks on ukraine, including today's massive attack on zaporizhzhia, and yesterday. the attack on the hospital

in sumy, all these attempts by the authoritarian regimes to kill the civilian population, intimidate people, kill women and children, remains a part of our lives with you, and i remind you once again how humanity failed to draw the right conclusions from what happened in 20th century, guests of our program yosif zisels, dissident, rights activist, co-president of the association of jewish organizations and communities, vat. congratulations, mr. yosif, and andriy kozytskyi, historian of experimental genocides and the history of political violence in the 20th century. congratulations mr. andriy. good day you know, i want to start our conversation with a question that seems to me quite important. and i didn't find an exact answer to it, to be honest. i recently spoke to an audience here in lviv, lviv businessmen. and i was asked why israel is so zealous.

fights for its independence, for compliance of our sovereignty, for many decades, we can say that among such enemies and internal ones, we in the political sense of the word did not feel, and it seems to me that even now we do not fully feel the need to survive, how would you answer this question, let's begin , let's start with you, thank you for the question, as always a difficult question from you, look, almost all comparisons over the last 30 years of ukraine and israel are more superficial than deep. we are two deep, two different peoples, two different nations, and ours is very different identity at the state level and even at the deep level, that is, at the level of civilization. what does this mean? why is israel fighting so hard,

because in 1948, when the state of israel actually came into existence, it immediately received a threat of destruction from six or seven arab countries there, that is, the struggle for its independence is simply cemented, coded in the entire history of independent israel in 1948, this war has been going on for 76 years, and i do not see their end, because it is impossible to destroy israel, which has 9 million arabs, and 9 million jews, a little less, 300 million arabs who live around, and most of them hate israel. israel found itself not just under the threat of losing state sovereignty there, like ukraine, it found itself already in 1948 in front of... complete

destruction, and complete destruction with the history that conveyed this, it greatly mobilizes the people, in israel, to what extent.. .as far as i understand, there is such a thing as a national consensus. this means that about 75-80% of the population have approximately the same ideas about the past of israel, the jewish people, about the present and about the future. and that means a high degree of mobilization of the people, when such a high percentage of similar ideas. it did not arise immediately, but now we have exactly... such a national consensus, unlike this, ukrainians are not at risk of extermination, there are 65 million ukrainians in the world, they are not at risk of complete extermination even on the territory of ukraine, because after all, this war, on my view, not a historian,

is different from the second world war, russia is killing ukrainians, citizens of ukraine, not on the basis of ethnicity, there is a blind eye. shelling, there is bombing, as you rightly pointed out, but this war is more like muslim wars. if a ukrainian is ready to work for russia, is ready to speak the russian language, that is, if he is ready to stop being a political and public ukrainian, nothing stands in his way, he will be accepted with pleasure, integrated into the russian system, and he will continue his fairly safe existence, and we we see it in thousands. cases of collaborators that exist in the occupied territories, this is a different kind of genocide, it is more a political-civil genocide than an ethnic one, i am not saying that it is not a genocide, it is also genocide, because when raphael lemkin was preparing his documents, which were accepted

by the united nations in 1948, there was initially an indication that extermination was on political and social grounds, but the intervention of the soviet... union threw out these two signs from the signs of genocide, and still they have not been returned, although we have many genocides precisely for this and for such a sign. i think this is what we are talking about. we are different, we, we are in different historical eras, when israel was created, we are a little younger, much younger, than israel and we have a different identity. in the israeli identity... there is no holocaust, it is in the historical memory of many, because it is studied in school, but the trauma of the holocaust is present in the jews of the diaspora, they all have an identity in which the holocaust occupies an essential part, here i am, for example, in i live in the diaspora, it is less

possible for me than for others, israelis do not have this weed, they have knowledge and they know that it will never happen again, and for this there is israel, a powerful ... state, despite its small size, powerfully military, powerfully economic, powerfully democratic. mr. andrew. well, i, as a historian, would have to pay attention to a formal thing: nazi germany was destroyed in 1945, and the truth about the holocaust could be spoken immediately. israel created the yadbash museum, as far as i remember, in 1953. instead, ukrainians lived in the state for 60 years. where there was no truth about the holodomor, moreover, the truth about the holodomor was punished, and if we try to mentally imagine such an experiment that nazi germany existed until 2005, then the truth about the holocaust would also be covered by the words

of resettlement to the east, a special interpretation of the jews, it is said that until the very end of the existence of the soviet union in the soviet union. the communists denied the holodomor, and it was an essential component of their political regime, even after the liberalization during khrushchev's time, when khrushchev defined a certain part of stalin's crimes that can be talked about, about the holodomor, of course, they did not start talking about it in the ussr, so the ukrainians just started later, i i agree with mr. yosyp that, unfortunately, there is a large part of people in ukraine who were victims of this soviet propaganda, but war is full. a large-scale invasion put everything in its place. there were two polls in 2022-23 about the famine of ukrainians, which showed that more than 93% of ukrainians have no doubt that it was a genocide, and only the killing of ukrainians

pushed them to such an awareness. well , regarding the fact that the genocide of ukrainians takes place as a socio-political phenomenon, i would not agree, eh... this is without a doubt the same genocide, because if we ask the question whether genocide is simply the killing of people or the destruction of a people, nation, ethnicity, race or group as such. then the transfer of ukrainians to the camp of the russians is the liquidation of ukrainians as a people, the social, cultural, and economic influence of ukrainians disappears, and of course there is a difference here, because hitler did not intend to build the third reich with the hands of jews, he wanted to destroy the jews, because the jews will not build such a reich, they, they have jewish physics, they have jewish business, degenerate art, degenerate art, of course, everything must be aryan, instead... stalin was going to destroy part of the ukrainians, turn others into soldiers and slaves

of the soviet union and use them to build a world empire. accordingly, the ukrainian people would still disappear, the ukrainian people would dissolve in the soviet project, as it is now fashionable to say, but it would be the same genocide. well, here's an interesting point, we have to clarify the fact that next to the memory of the holodomor in soviet times, the memory of the holocaust was silenced, it was possible. talking about the extermination of the jews , among other things, but the very concept of the holocaust, it was completely absent, mr. yosif, remembers that it was not possible to go to babi yar to approach on september 29, the police arrested me for that, but by the way, about the trauma, the holocaust, i also can't say that it's a part of my identity so directly, i just remember it, i have a heavy part of my memory than part of the identity, but i remember well that when i studied there in the fifth grade and there was a lesson. there is a history lesson at school, and the

history teacher asked the children, so they know about what happened in the lady's ravine, and i turned out to be the only one who knew, because i raised my hand and said: i know what happened there, there destroyed the jewish population of kyiv, and here is a teacher, so, by the way, she came to us from russia, she says, you can’t say what the jewish population is, soviet citizens were destroyed, and she tells me this in front of the whole class, i stand, i know that i am a child of jewish origin, relatively speaking, all my classmates know that i am a child of jewish origin, she says that, and it makes me feel, well, i wouldn't say, i can't say that i didn't care, i it was dangerous, i just felt like me humiliated, and simply for truthfully answering a question that the teacher himself asked, i still remember it, as you can see, many years have passed, i remember this scene, and by the way, i remember exactly the same as my classmates , they are in... any conversations about the famine victims who were, say, not from kyiv, but from the kyiv region, to whom

relatives could tell, so i later understood that their relatives begged them not to tell anyone about it, that it was a secret that could not be shared with the community, this is also a trauma, mr. yosif, so common, that is the question arises, how to overcome this in the current conditions, well, we need to overcome not only this, we have a lot in our collective identity that needs to be... changed, but the question about this is that we must understand that identity, especially the deep levels , changes almost exclusively evolutionary, they cannot be, but they wanted to and changed, individual identity changes rather a little, for example, a million ukrainians who went to the united states, in canada at the end of the 19th century, after three generations in terms of civilizational identity, they are no longer differed from american canadians. about 100 years have passed, and if it had been individual, it would have passed sooner,

so what is being said, you mentioned very correctly, i am from western ukraine, i lived in chernivtsi, i always knew what the holocaust was, just then we didn't know it was called that, but mine, my older brother died from the nazis, the romanian one from the iron guards, my father's first wife, his mother from... also died then, my uncle died then, so i'm in the family always knew that there would be annihilation of the jews mass, i also knew, like you, both at school and after school, but of course, parents did not recommend talking openly about it, so you tell mr. andriy about the collective memory of ukrainians now, but how much is this collective memory , if you want, shipped in flights. well, it is unlikely that it has a direct correlation with political activity, but people realized

that they could be killed if someone included them in a dangerous group of ukrainians. the peculiarity of genocide is that the victims are determined by the one who destroys them, that is, a jew can be in germany, germanized, assimilated by a christian, but from the point of view of hitler or his minions, he still had to be ... exterminated, even if he was a veteran of the first world war, fought on the side of the reichswehr and had merit for the reich, a separate camp was created for them in libra but all the same, such jews were imprisoned, accordingly, regarding ukrainianism, now the situation is such that many people did not think about their identity in different regions of our country, and here they realized that they could be killed because they are ukrainians, even if they will to assure that they are not interested in politics, and in this situation a person has two ways out, either

to run away or to defend himself, and it seems to me that many people have realized that it is necessary to defend himself and... the fact that ukraine has been enduring for 2.5 years, well, without a doubt, an unequal battle with russia, with a partner not in our weight category, this indicates that the ukrainians are drawing a conclusion, maybe not as quickly as we would like, but changes are taking place, it is important here to understand such a thing, in principle, how international attention is always to such events at the moment when they really happen happen, helps then to be realistic about the challenge, we remember the story of the holocaust, when one of the polish politicians of jewish origin, a member of the émigré government in london, committed suicide because he could not reach the western governments that he was telling about , what is happening, by the way,

is very similar to what is happening now during the russian-ukrainian war, how can it be, and how could it be, his family died in warsaw, he tried, barenboim, seems to be his last name it was, if i am not mistaken, that he tried to explain what was happening, well, the émigré government of poland, of course, accepted his arguments, but it was an émigré government, it could only also appeal to the allies, the main ones there were the western allies, like the ukrainian government, it is only the ukrainian government, and the weapons are from the allies, the greeks are from the allies, and the allies simply did not believe in the intentions, they could not believe in the idea that hitler... really wants to destroy all the jews, as is now the case in the west, when we say that putin just wants to occupy everything ukraine, that it is not about crimea or donbas, few people still believe, and how to change this understanding of reality, i still have after this suicide, i remember, i saw a whole exposition in the museum, i still do not have such an exact answer, i think that sometimes people take some desperate steps because

they understand that they are outside, even against the whole political process. what to do with it? well, as always, there is no simple answer to this, because conservative, very conservative awareness, inherent not only in the west, they formed their vision the world for a long time, and the expert environment, politicians, and many people have certain ideas about the present and that i can, that russia is an analogue of the nazis. the nazis are an analogue, a certain analogue to a large extent , of the nazis, it is very badly perceived, i remember this from the 14th year of discussions there with german historians, with german journalists, they did not even want to hear about it, i think that many german historians still do not want to hear, because for us communism and nazism are equal phenomena, because we experienced

both, that is, ukrainian people who... lived here, and in particular the jews and others, all survived both regimes, and the german regime, like all of western europe, survived only nazism, and they see russia as a trading partner, because it is very profitable for them, and what is profitable for pragmatic europe , the states, canada, it's not easy to change very much, you have to chip away at this rock, that's my belief, we're all... those who, as they can, there are groups of wholes, it's not what it was there 50 years ago when we were there were only a few of us, and now we have millions of people, i assess the level of civil society, the same of the future political nation is already in 30% of the ukrainian population, not 75-80, as in israel, in 30%, these are conditional things, these are

models, and we are moving, look... if we speak in all units, then in 91- last year we were maybe 5%, there wasn't enough research back then to judge that, but we became an independent country, it was gifted to us by fate, this collapse of the soviet union gave us this opportunity, and how we used this opportunity, you yourself know, not powerful enough, all thanks to this very identity, the main characteristic of ukrainian. general collective identity, this is the absence of a single identity, there are different clusters that see differently, these are both territorial clusters and social clusters, and already and differently. for other reasons, we are different, that is why we have a very slow, conservative process of combining these classers into a political civil nation, but this process is going on, if we have gone

from 5% to 30 in 30 years, this is something that no country has done country in the west, because their path to today's state took 200 years, and we passed it in 13, in 30 years a great section of this path and a very difficult section, do you rate it? 30% of the political nation, mr. andriyovych, unfortunately, unfortunately, i have to agree, and why, unfortunately, of course, i wanted it to be better, but, but it could be less, it could really be less, but i want to draw attention to one point, why your question, vitaly sounded like why they don't believe in the intention of genocide, people are used to measuring others by their own standards, and the murder of either jews or ukrainians. forgive me for being so unpragmatic, they are better if the nazis could use them for something, and the world might not believe, well, so what

you can kill millions of people just like that during a war, when you need working hands, when they can work for the wehrmacht, when they can at least take care of the sick, wounded somewhere in the rear, but just killing is something like that on the spot. and because of that there are also mystical explanations why the jews were killed, because they say it was the worship of some aryan gods there. in the case of ukrainians, we have a slightly different situation, because ukrainians are the largest nation that suffered genocide in the 20th century. in the territories of the holodomor, ukrainians made up more than 80% population. all other nations, whether armenians, jews, or gypsies, made up a small percentage, were a minority. and of course, when the majority destroys the minority, it can somehow be put into one's head, even distrust of the holodomor from the point of view of many researchers

during the war period looked like this: well, stalin was not crazy, why kill the citizens of his country, if they can be used, and it was difficult to explain to these people that he killed those whom ukrainians could not use, because ukrainians, just like jews, have jewish physics or... generative art, ukrainians have their own piece of land, a fence, a hut, and it is impossible to build a collective farm with such a petty bourgeois element, that is why he tried to exterminate some of them, what about the present moment, how should we explain it to the world, it seems to me, to show the wider context that russia's victory will make the head of all totalitarian tyrants, iran, the north, rise. and this will be echoed throughout the world. i believe that if, for god's sake , something bad happens to ukraine, then taiwan will be the next victim, and it may already

to cause a really big war right away, because the united states of america has a military treaty with taiwan, and they are obliged to defend it, even in the event of a nuclear attack on taiwan. therefore, those politicians or political scientists are right who say that now ukraine is... an example of the struggle between democracy and totalitarianism or authoritarianism, if we are talking about the 1930s, before the second world war there was an attack by spain on abyssinia, an attack by japan on manchuria, it was not punished, and we can say that the beginning of the second world war stood in the same row, now it can happen the same thanks, we'll continue our conversation in just a few minutes, so stay tuned. for joint and back pain, i take dr. tice's comfrey ointment.

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a dead rooster. live sound. fm halychyna. good music - important news. long-lasting cream relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joints with dolgit cream, you can also walk dolgit - the only yellow cream for pain in the joints. new week on espresso - a weekly summary information and analytical program. a clear understanding of the key events of the past week. analysis of the causes and consequences of these events from experts. forecasts of the development of the

current situation. week, the opportunity to ask your own questions and join the discussion, spend the final monday evening with us and confidently step into the new week, the new week with khrystyna project yatskiv and andriy smoly every monday at 20:00 at espresso. see this week in the collaborators program. which of the ukrainian bloggers is ready to fight for russia? i made my choice a long time ago. but how did a native of simferopol become a russian propagandist. we cannot let the enemy think that we will not use nuclear weapons. watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko on espresso tv channel on tuesday, october 1 at 5:45 p.m. we are military personnel of a separate unit of gryg, named after volodymyr

gryg. of unmanned aerial vehicles complexes of the 76th separate battalion of the 102nd separate brigade. in the zaporozhye direction , combat clashes take place daily due to the constant assaults of the enemy. this does not bypass the gulyaipil direction, which our battalion has been defending for almost two years. right now we need three times as many modifiers and fire damage from the sky. therefore, we are appealing to everyone who cares to collect funds for 20 dji mavic classic drones and 10 mavic 3t. yes, the amount is not small. but the life of your siblings and relatives is much more expensive, very much we hope for your support, tone and distribution, let's not let the occupier take a step further, and let's speed up the victory together. glory to ukraine, glory to the heroes. we continue the politclub program on the

espresso tv channel, i congratulate you. portnikov and i with the dissident human rights defender yosyp zysels and the historian and genocide researcher andriy kozytsky discuss the memory of the mass exterminations of the 20th century and what lessons there are in the 21st century with all this memory of ours, and this is all a very important moment, we are now we should add tetiana boryak to our conversation, doctor of historical sciences to... researcher of vilnius university, congratulations mrs. tetiana, congratulations, and i would like to ask you about how far, in your opinion , the world scientific community can now talk about this research, understanding of terms, how far the holodomor is now it is perceived precisely as genocide, as far as all these tragedies that were on the territory of the soviet union are combined.