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vasyl zima's big broadcast. my name is vasyl zima. this is a big ether on the espresso tv channel. two hours of air time. two hours of your time. my colleagues and i will talk about the most important things. two hours to learn about the war, about the military, the frontline component. serhii zgurets. but how does the world live? in front of me and time to talk about what was happening outside of ukraine, yury, good evening, two hours to keep up with economic news, time talk about money in wartime. oleksandr morshchevka field winter and sports news. i invite yevhen pastukhov to the conversation. two hours in the company of your favorite presenters. about cultural news, alena chekchenina, our art watcher, is ready to tell, good evening. presenters who have become like relatives to many. vital kadenko is already next to me, ready to talk about the weather for this weekend, as well as the distinguished guests of the studio. mustafa dzhemilov, leader of the crimean tatar people. in

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the politclub program on the espresso tv channel yosif zisels dissidents, activist and public figure and andriy kozytskyi historian are in our studio and we will now talk about another part when we can say genocides are taking hold of modernity and mutual alienation of peoples become a barrier to their final reconciliation, mr. yosypovych mentioned about... here there is a sense of humor in the polish people, there is a sense of sacrifice in the ukrainian people, all this is of course a serious problem in the political context, which emerges all the time when it comes to some fundamental events, we will now talk with polish journalist ihor kravets. congratulations, mr. igor. good day, congratulations, glory to ukraine. well, this is a very important point, that we meet again and again with the situation of the hero slava. as regards

the polish attitude to the tragedies experienced by the ukrainian polish people during the second world war, volhynia, which... was obviously a great tragedy and a tragedy for the polish people, which cannot be denied, the vistula operation, which was a great ukrainian tragedy, but we always see, i would say to a certain extent, what we never wanted to see in the relations between two neighboring peoples, it is a competition in sacrifice, who suffered more, who should apologize more, who should find his place, whose policy of historical memory is correct, i will tell you, mr. igor, that i once had... the situation is rather strange, i spoke with polish students just after gros's book neighbors about the pogrom in jedwabno was published, the famous story, the pogrom that was committed residents of jedwabny of polish origin with their fellow residents of jewish

origin, when there was no such thing between occupations, when the soviet troops left , the german troops did not come, there was no power yet and they took advantage of this for pogrom, in principle... it was a story not about a nation, but about specific people in a specific village and about the responsibility of neighbors, so to speak, and this caused incredible exasperation in polish society, and when the president of poland, oleksandr kwasniwski, came to the hospital to apologize, as the head of state, he suffered severe criticism, almost such, i would say, continuous, and these students told me that listen, we we want to be proud of the great poles, and i tell you, well, listen, if you are proud of the great poles, if you say, we are proud, that pope john paul ii is a pole, then this is your responsibility for the pope, he is your compatriot, but just like being proud of heroes, you need to be responsible for criminals, because all poles are heroes and criminals, that's how any nation looks, i didn't find understanding, i don't know how much it is at all can be found with such

an approach, and here i mean not only the poles, this is also a ukrainian problem, of course, and the ukrainian trauma in this form, well, there are actually a lot of topics here, a panethalium, but... andrii turned to him, really, what to do with it, especially since you see that in fact this whole story is primarily connected with holochina . well, i will probably express two very unpopular opinions, for ukrainians and for poles: neither volyn was genocide, nor the vistula action was genocide, because

genocide is not simply either murder or some specific action in a short period of time, it a long process that begins with the preparation of society, ordinary people will not. to kill their neighbors just like that, due to the fact that in the morning the president turned and said: let's kill all the jews or all the tutks, society is being prepared for a long time, a negative image of this group is formed, which is destined for destruction, this group is weakened by social methods, them, in them they take away the possibility of social influence, economic independence, defense can disarm before the holodomor in ukraine, there were twice as many shares. description of hunting weapons, people were registered in order to later disarm even those few opportunities to use hunting weapons a rifle for self-defense, then a special group of those who we would call providers of violence is prepared, because there must also be

professional executioners, separate formations are created that undergo ideological processing, all this takes a long time, and when mass murder or resettlement already begins. society is ready for this, society takes it for granted, how could it be otherwise with them, if they are all potential traitors, swindlers, counter-revolutionaries, kulaks or someone else, in the case of volyn and the vistula actions we we do not see this, in the case of ukrainians, it is ukrainian fault in volyn, ukrainians did not have their own state, we did not have the resources to carry out, so to speak, an exemplary genocide. of course, there were murders, but on the other hand, there were also murders by polish self-defense, ukrainians, there were retaliatory actions, this is terrible, but to measure genocides, in my opinion, is completely unpromising, similarly, in the case of the vistula action, there is a fundamental difference between

how , for example, resettled the crimean tatars, who were transported to the steppe, to kazakhstan, abandoned somewhere at the stations, told to dig dugouts, after that they forbade to return to crimea, where there was no crimean-tatar schooling, people lost their libraries, records, and ukrainians who were resettled on former german lands. who, although dispersed, were scattered among the poles, but were not subjected to such persecution. there were no non-ukrainian schools either. there were no ukrainian villages, it was rather ethnocide, when a person is deprived of his ethnicity, but left alive. this is a separate wording. robert julen, a french ethnologist formulated it back in the 60s. therefore, in my opinion, the best option would be to reconcile with the poles on the same principle as the poles reconciled with the germans back in the 60s. we ask for forgiveness and we forgive, that is, our nations

have done each other a lot of evil, but we must reconcile. mr. joseph, would you like to comment on something? well, this is not a simple question, and it is not so easy to answer, because you are right that ukrainians and poles cannot survive this complex of sacrifice, it must be survived, but besides that there are more important things. aspects identity, because ukraine was a colonial nation for hundreds of years, if at all it is possible to say that ukrainians were then one nation, they were different groups that possibly spoke a proto-ukrainian language, which later became ukrainian, for example, in the 16th century or in the 17th

. victim complex, not every post-colonial people has a victim complex, but most do they still have, and the absence of their own state is especially important, mr. andriy said about this, poland had its own state, poland itself was an empire before the first partition of poland at the end of the 18th century. and this is a memory, a historical memory of the poles, that they were a great, powerful country, and even though many decades have passed, it remains and it shapes the character. i compare our relations with dissidents in the early 80s, well, i was in prison then, and others were in prison, but we had the opportunity to somehow exchange ideas. when he was in the military general iruzel came to the coup in poland. and in six months , a million

people signed up for the anti-communist solidarity union, a trade union, there were 6 million in total in solidarity, at that time there were 5,000 of us, but now when i counted the memorial of all political prisoners of ukraine from 1954 to 1991, it is 500, 56 million. this is the difference in collective identity. poles are a european nation that was a state for many years and remembered this, and ukrainians are this, but we see something else, for example, i filmed only one belarusian dissident, a political prisoner, only one i knew, because i was dealing with psychiatric persecutions, he was caught in this trap, and we see today what belarus is, it is simply a copycat of what russia is doing, and ukrainians were half of all political prisoners in

it does not matter, this is the fate of the people, which is dictated by a certain identification matrix: you will be a free people, you will try to be a free people, we see, after the collapse of the soviet union, not only ukraine followed this path, in a certain way moldova, georgia. well , it's more difficult, azerbaijan and armenia, the baltic nations jumped almost immediately into the european space, because they fell out of there, and this is also the overcoming of all the complexes that it gives. still, there is a difference, a german, nazism existed for 12 years, ruled a certain part of europe, and communism ruled for 70 years, these are different, different memories. and various injuries, despite all the cruelty of nazi totalitarianism, it was less

bloody than stalinist totalitarianism, communist totalitarianism, if we have the right to compare like that, because we experienced it all, here, and here it is important, maybe you are planning to ask this, but what to do next as humanity must respond to genocides, and i think that not only the 20th century, it is the century of geno. i read once, i'm not a historian, of course, i read once about the wars of genghis khan, millions of people were also destroyed, but who knows about this? they took away children, and taking away children is a sign of genocide, for lemkin, well, this is the same ethnocide he was talking about, that's why, that's why, that's it, everything, the entire human history of the last thousand years, it's the history of genocides, and there is

a memorial in lambator a tribute to genghis khan, i don't know if putin or putin put flowers for him, but... genghis khan is honored in mongolia as the great creator of the state. here i wanted to add one more important thing, it seems to me a moment in connection with the colonial past of the people, because the alternative to what you just said is to join the imperial project and become anti-polish from the russian point of view. i remember the beginning of the 80s, when the official position of the state against solidarity resulted in... such whispered propaganda that the poles are rebelling, they don't like it, we freed them, and they don't, in fact, that they live so well , but you see, they still don't like something, and some of the ukrainians were even affected by this, which, of course , was in the interests of the kremlin, in the interests of moscow, and now, if ukrainians were to be separated

from ukrainian, ukrainian identity, then they would be doubting the anti-polish, because... it is beneficial to moscow, and for our peoples there is no other alternative but simply to reconcile. it is important for me to remember other examples, these are the polish uprisings against the russian empire, the three uprisings, which, by the way, took part, jews, and ukrainians, and other ethnic groups, and this solidarity against the empire is about the image of the solidarity that we did during of the presidential movement, and this is important, it happened in ukraine, and therefore ukraine has a different path to the future than some other nations of the former soviet union, and we always remembered this, it is not by chance that this slogan is for our freedom and yours, and it is exactly the slogan was the polish uprising, second or third, i don't remember anymore, yes, and we used it

in dissident times, if, if possible, let me clarify, the third january uprising. in 963 , it started with the fact that during the shooting during the demonstration in warsaw, the polish standard-bearer was killed, and the polish flag was picked up by the jews, and one of the first rebels who defected from the russian army to the rebels was andrii potebnia, a ukrainian who assassinated his commander and then commanded a rebel unit, which is the best symbol of history of the second maidan, so where the ethnic armenian was the first to be killed, so by the way... yakutia, a part of russia, is known and there were never jews there before, where did they come from, and this is in the archives, my friend researched, he studied in yakutsk, a native of chernivtsi, and stayed to work there, where they came from, expelled, exiled after 830 and 863, jews, together with poles,

ukrainians to siberia, there founded a jewish community in yakutsk, which remained. in the documents today there is almost no yakut jew, i once read an article about yakut jews in a magazine about these exiles, but it is interesting that pilsudski's brother was an outstanding researcher of these peoples of the russian cock, or the trochi themselves, he was there and he was there exiled, that too an excellent example of all this, we will now return to ihor kravets, mr. ihor, andriy kozytskyi reminded me of this famous formula, please forgive me, and we ask for forgiveness, but i remember that this formula, when it was applied by the polish bishops in a letter to the german priests, she received complete condemnation in poland at that time, she was criticized by the leadership of the polish people's republic, and she did not was perceived in society, it was used for anti-clerical propaganda, and this raises

the question of how much such a formula has, if it is timely and whether it is timely or not, it can really help... historical reconciliation, because we have said many times in relation to ukrainian-polish relations that we forgive and ask for forgiveness, but it never worked to the end, that's what the trick is, it's not that , which did not work, vitaly, this was not heard at all, especially in recent years, i do not know, do you remember this gesture of president poroshenko, 2016, when vine kneels in front of the monument to the victims of the volyn tragedy in warsaw, in volyn square. and then his the polish delegation leaves just at that moment, yes, and this discussion, all we are saying is, of course, these are the right words, instead, the main question now sounds like, uh... why is it not working in poland, why in in poland,

the attitude towards ukrainians is working absolutely in accordance with such neo-colonial and orientalist schemes, it is very interesting what kind of discussion has flared up in the last few weeks in poland regarding volyn, when the representatives of such a pro-european coalition are now working began to draw ukraine's attention to the volyn tragedy on the one hand, and on the other on the one hand, they began to criticize them for... these are the representatives of law and justice, on the one hand, president andrzej duda, on the other hand, the column of the former minister of foreign affairs , jaczko chotowicz, who, if in such an internal-polish game, they made such a confession that they perfectly understand the ukrainian position, they perfectly understand when ukraine talks about things related to the past, they talk about the way you talk in the studio now, and that, they write and talk people publicly, to humiliate their political enemies, of course, but what else a few years ago, they pursued er

the same policy against ukraine, so volyn is a very convenient topic, it has become at least in the last 10 years, especially intensively, er, which is used when a, when poland has no idea about what to do with today's ukraine, b) to be forever. there is such an interesting polish saying: chase the rabbit, yes, that is, chase the rabbit, so as not to catch it, just chase, chase, chase, chase all the time, yes, when we talk about the issue of exhumation, if the polish side is well aware that in order to unblock exhumation in ukraine, it is necessary to change the table on one, in words, one ukrainian monument in the forest, which is located 2 km on foot from the nearest fire road where... no one sees it at all, yes, that is, well, the absurdity of all these questions, all these problems related to the past, if

we talk about the polish-ukrainian past, it has now reached a very dangerous point, when such populist rhetoric has been adopted by those who consider themselves successors of yedroets, who would seem polish colonialism absolutely overpowered ukraine, put it in safely grew and made it the essence of today's polish international policy towards its eastern neighbors. this is a very big challenge in polish-ukrainian relations. and then i see a problem in this regard, because it seems to me that the ukrainian side, on the one hand, sees this problem correctly. rightly sees the inclusion of such populist absolutely meaningless rhetoric from the polish side when it comes to issues of the past, but on the other hand, the ukrainian

side does not fully know how to react, for example, when a few weeks ago the minister kuleba made a statement that when he was asked about volhynia in olsztyn, he began to talk about the vistula campaign and so on and so on, the same transfusion of hectoliters of blood begins again. which was, it seems, towards the end of the 90s, it was not at such a high, diplomatic level, it did not take place, instead it took place in other discussion circles, now the political significance of such statements is much greater than in the 90s, but to me it seems that the ukrainian side does not fully know how to react in the sense that it is obvious that in more poles died as a result of the volyn tragedy. as a result of the ghisla action, ukrainians also died, but it was a deportation, well, that is, if mathematically,

mathematically, ukrainians are at a loss, on the other hand, when the political measurement of blood begins, who shed more as a result of those events, this is a completely wrong way of asking the question, because in order to safely talk about these problems, it is necessary to understand that every victim... is valuable, and, uh, the polish side, on its part, is trying to make volyn so polish holocaust, polish holocaust means if you don't deal with the holocaust correctly, you can't inherit the european heritage, that's basically the foundation of the post- war european union, but - if the problem is that there was no polish holocaust here, there was a bilateral conflict, uh, one less side . suffered, the other side suffered more, instead, in order to talk about it, you need to talk in such a formula as we forgive and ask for forgiveness, only that it does not work now, you are absolutely

right vitaly, that... er, the problem problem, the problem is precisely this, and it is not that it does not work, er, as it were, the level of lack of cooperation in poland is increasing over the years, er, and the evidence of this, i emphasize once again, is that the populist rhetoric, it would seem, is the right-wing rhetoric in this matter , accepted now by those who consider themselves heirs, a very dangerous trend in polish politics. thank you, thank you, mr. igor, igor kravets, polish journalist, we will return to the studio. i would like to explain the political implications, this week the european union, finally, i would say separated albania and north macedonia, which were supposed to hold negotiations on european integration together, he said that with albania , negotiations are starting, in north macedonia they will start only when north macedonia fulfills these conditions, which were reached by it in a compromise with bulgaria, conditions of history, historical, i would say

ethnographic. character, to put it so clearly, because in order to start negotiations on the stupa, the european union, north macedonia must recognize the bulgarian identity of north macedonia itself, to change the constitution, to change one's own view of history, these are not related to the european union at all, but these are bulgarian conditions, and now we have a very similar problem in terms of consequences with poland, maybe with other neighbors, and polish politicians have a competition, one might say between those says first the fulfillment of conditions of a historical nature, he emphasizes, and then negotiations with europe, and with those who, by the way, president andrzej duda, and speaker of the parliament shymon holovnia says: "let's first, let ukraine become a member of the european union", and then we in the european union will talk about all this and decide all this. i don't know which construct will win, to be honest, and how do we achieve the victory of the first one? well, it will be

different in different cases. there is no single recipe in order to solve such problems as you just mentioned, polish or bulgarian. north macedonia, where i have been many times, refers to bulgaria, both for the occupiers and who exterminated the macedonians during the second world war, just as bulgaria, for example, protected its jews, and the jews other countries where she was, when she was an ally of the nazis, they were in... in north macedonia, but the bulgarians recognized it only after 60 years, i think after 70 years, the community of macedonia, she remembers very well how bulgaria exterminated the jews of macedonia. but what i want to tell you, if you look at engelhart's map, you know, he is an american researcher, a sociologist who has been conducting value research in 90 countries for 40 years. according to this map, north macedonia

is the largest among... former post-communist, post-colonial countries advanced towards the democratic world, much further than albania, but the political decision, you see, is completely different, because they are accepted into europe not on the basis of values, but on the basis of political orientation, but europe believed, for example, that bulgaria and romania have always been european countries , although in my opinion there is a very high level of corruption in romania and bulgaria, well, not only in your opinion. a large level, a large level of young people going abroad, and in this they are not very different from us, the less we deserve, but we have a different approach, because no in europe, almost no one believed that ukraine was a european country, no matter how much we insisted on it, they did not think so, that's why they treated them differently than those countries, but we have a common eastern destiny, and those countries

are post-communist, and so are we. and those post-colonial and us and those and in our country those countries are orthodox and we are an orthodox country, so many markers of identity indicate that the identification matrix is ​​similar, we are not accepted in europe yet, but they have already been accepted, well, i would pay attention to the fact that in poland there is a certain resentment towards, well, i took a risk to use this word about... those historical wars, you mentioned, mr. vitaliy, about jedwabny, and in poland for a long time this discussion around jedwabny revolved around the role of poles in general and the polish community in the second world war, and we remember even when the polish sejm decided to include in the law on the institute of national memory of poland punishment for attributing the crimes of the nazis to the polish people.