that people sometimes take some desperate steps because they understand that they are outside, even against the entire political process, what to do about it? well, as always, there is no simple answer to this, because conservative, very conservative awareness, inherent not only in the west, they formed their vision of the world a long time ago, and the expert environment, politicians, and... many people have certain ideas about the present and that , what is possible, the fact that russia is an analogue of the nazis, the racists are an analogue, a certain analogue to a large extent of the nazis, this is very bad accepted, i remember, it is from the 14th year of discussions there with german historians, with german journalists, they did not even want to hear about it, i think that many german historians still do not want to hear, because for us communism.. . and nazism are equal

phenomena, because we experienced both, that is, the ukrainian people who lived here, and in particular the jews and others, all experienced both regimes, and the german, like the whole of western europe, experienced only nazism, and they see russia as a trading partner, because it is very profitable for them beneficial to pragmatic europe, the states. in canada it's not easy to change, really, you have to chip away at this rock, that's my belief, we're all, you who are as you can, there are groups of wholes, it's not what it was there 50 years ago, when we were in a unit of us were, and now we are millions of people, i estimate the level of civil society, of the same future political nation to be 30% of the ukrainian population, not 75-80. in israel,

in 30%, these are conditional things, these are models, and we are moving, look, if we speak in all units, then in 1991 we had, perhaps 5%, then there were not enough studies to judge about it, but we became an independent country, it was given to us by fate, this collapse of the soviet union gave us such an opportunity, and how it was used, this opportunity, you yourself know, is not enough. power, all thanks to this very identity. the main feature of the ukrainian identity, the general collective one, is the lack of a single identity. there are different clusters that see differently, these are both territorial clusters and social clusters, and for various other reasons, we are different, therefore, this process of combining these classes into political ones is very slow, conservatively, taking place in our country. civil nation,

but this process is going on, if you went from 5% to 30 in 30 years, this is something that no country in the west has done, because their path to today's state took 200 years, and we passed it in 13, in 30 years, a large section of this path and a very difficult section, you estimate 30% of the political nation, mr. andriyov, unfortunately, unfortunately, i have to agree, and why, unfortunately, i wanted to, but it could have been less, it could have been really less, but i i want to pay attention to one point, why your question sounded vitally, why they do not believe in the intention of genocide, people are used to measuring others by their own standards, and the murder of jews or ukrainians, forgive me for such a thing is not pragmatic, they are better if the nazis could use them for...someone and the world may not

have believed, well, how can you kill millions of people just like that during a war, when you need working hands, when they can work for the wehrmacht, when they can at least take care of the sick, wounded somewhere in the rear, just to kill is something similar to mysticism, and through there are also mystical explanations as to why the jews were killed, because they say it was the worship of some aryan... in the case of ukrainians, we have a slightly different situation, because ukrainians are the largest nation that suffered genocide in the 20th century, in the territories of the holodomor, ukrainians made up more than 80% of the population, all other peoples, whether armenians or jews or gypsies, they made up a small percentage, they were a minority, and it is clear that when the majority destroys the minority, it is somehow still possible to put it in one's head, even... distrust of the holodomor with

point of view of many postwar researchers period looked like this: well, stalin was not crazy, why kill the citizens of his country if they can be used, and it was difficult to explain to these people that he killed those whom he could not use, ukrainians, because ukrainians, like jews have jewish physics or degenerate art, ukrainians have a piece of land, a fence, a hut, and it is impossible to build a collective farm with such a petty-bourgeois element, that is why he tried to exterminate some of them, what about the present moment, how would we have it to explain to the world, it seems to me to show, the wider context that the victory of russia will make all the totalitarian tyrants iran, north korea rise up, and this will be echoed throughout the world. i believe that if god forbid something bad happens to ukraine, then

taiwan will be the next victim, and this can cause a really big war right away, because the united states of america has a military treaty with taiwan, and they are obliged to defend it, even you. .. of a nuclear attack on taiwan, so those politicians or political scientists who say that now ukraine is right an example of the struggle between democracy and totalitarianism or authoritarianism, if we are talking about the 30s, before the second world war there was an attack by spain on abyssinia, an attack by japan on manchuria, they were not punished for this, and we can say that the beginning of the second world war was in the same row , the same thing can happen now. thank you, we will continue our conversation in just a few minutes, so stay with us, thousands of ukrainians found themselves in a similar

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with serhiy rudenko, from now on in the new two hours format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the bad day for with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhii rudenko, from tuesday to friday from 20 to 22. the verkhovna rada regularly adopts new laws, but how do these changes affect our lives. we have analyzed the new decrees to inform you about the latest changes in ukrainian legislation. how do legislative norms change our lives, what should we prepare for? leading lawyers of the aktum bar association will answer these and other questions that concern ukrainians.

watch every tuesday at 7:55 in the legal expertise program on the espresso tv channel. we continue the politclub program on the espresso tv channel with you, vitaly portnikov, and a human rights dissident. with yosif zisels and historian and genocide researcher andriy kozytskyi, we discuss the memory of the mass executions of the 20th century and what lessons there are in the 21st century with all this memory of ours, and this is all a very important moment, we now have to connect to our conversation tetiana boryak, doctor of historical sciences, researcher of vilnius university, congratulations to ms. greetings, and i would like to ask you about how far, in your opinion, the world

scientific community can now talk about this research, the understanding of terms, how far the holodomor is now perceived precisely as genocide, how far all these tragedies are combined, which were on the territory of the soviet union in the 1930s and in the 40s of the 20th century with hitler's tools of extermination. people, how can it all be said, united in a single narrative? congratulations, dear society, well, first of all, february 24, 2022 really caused a rethinking of various crimes of soviet totalitarianism on the territory of ukraine, not only for ukrainians, but of course also in the west, and when you start talking about the war. explain something, answer questions, and when you mention the holodomor, which is actually not

the first crime, then the situation really becomes clearer to foreigners. as a researcher, i will sleep history, yes, it is such a source, a source of personal origin, actually memories, what we have, people's memory of the famine, if in simple words, then i... i can say that there is such a misunderstanding when people try, ordinary people and historians try to understand what the holocaust was, what the holodomor was, how they are, how they differ, and there are attempts to compare, and this is how the misunderstanding arises in part, because there are many other reasons, i will try to outline. uh, look, i think it's important to insist that the objects of extermination were

completely different, and the language, yes, if we know that jews were killed because you were a jew, wherever they found him, well, figuratively speaking, ukrainians were killed for almost six months, they were killed within the administrative borders of the ukrainian republic , and also in the kuban, and were beaten for that. in fact, for which the term did not exist even then, it was for ukrainian identity, and stalin actually writes about it, only he does not use this word, of course, but it is about the bearers of ukrainian identity, who were hit by this and that interval, starting from the end of the 32nd year, another difference that makes it difficult to understand the holodomor and that in the context... in the shadow in the shadow of the holocaust, so to speak, is that, uh, uh,

that the methods of killing, of course, differed, and, uh, we know about the holocaust, about the cells, about, uh, killing by bullets, bullets, and the holodomor, it took place in the shadow of the all-union famine, under the guise of collectivization, bread harvesting, disarmament. and therefore it was very easy to hide it, which is actually what the russians use, well, you can’t call them colleagues, as historians, let's put this term in quotation marks, yes, when they talk about the all-union famine, but it is symptomatic that there are many testimonies of peasants and townspeople who had a slightly higher level of education, who were just trying to find out this or that ukrainian. as they tried to describe, for what they killed, not because you were ukrainian, like a jew, but

because you were a ukrainian who prevented stalin, soviet totalitarianism, from achieving its goals and actually siphoning off resources, and to use people as, as such sharovat. shchykov, yes, because we remember that after the cold war, the postosh used to wear embroidered clothes, yes, thus demonstrating that it was possible, yes, but it was not possible with this ukrainian... identity, another problem was, of course , russian propaganda, my colleague was just writing a book about how the soviets waged an information war, a war against the holodomor, and not much is known about that either, now of course more, and this information war, it was very multi-layered, it was

multi-vector, it was directed within the state, it had the same tools outside the borders of... the state, it already had other tools, and it was extremely successful, because the soviets managed to establish such a connection that everyone who talks about the national liberation struggle, about the ghouls, about the holodomor, about repressions, they are nazi collaborators, yes, that is, they managed to establish such a connection, and we have a lot of testimonies, eyewitnesses of the famine, who managed to escape during the second world war. ended up in europe in camps for displaced persons who tried to tell europeans about what the soviet totalitarianism, what about repressions, about the gulag, about the holodomor, and in response, at best, they met with no understanding, at worst

, it began to build a relationship, well , you escaped from the soviets, so you... are not very good either objective, let's say, james mace, when he started his work with the conquest, the result of which was actually the first study about the famine, the harvest of sorrows, which was built on oral history, because of course, there was no access to the sources, this is another the aspect i will mention is that jace mays, at the beginning of his work, he actually also expressed such a claim to ukraine. those eyewitnesses of the famine that he recorded, that he met for the conquest book, he said that they were too emotional, and of course when he got into the problem and did what he did, of course he didn't think either, but for an average european who did not live in that era,

he could not understand how the state could kill its citizens despite everything... that there was a very powerful propaganda about heaven on earth, as these people say, this it was perceived as, as biased testimony, you understand, by the way, by the way, thank you, this is an interesting point, how would you explain that, in principle , the witnesses did not want to talk for decades, what about the holodomor, well, my parents were witnesses of the holocaust , but they didn't want to talk about it, well, it's scary, you... you have to immerse your child, who you care about, you protect him, into another world where there are very controversial things, and this then this child can suffer from it, if she will talk about it, well, i remember well, in our world there was such a person social schizophrenia, i remember well the

50s, when they spoke clearly at home in the houses of my classmates, others, they said, what can we talk about? outside the family, and what only in the family? so there was such a division at the level of the entire society, and if you say in society what can only be said in the family, you expose yourself to danger, to punishment, sometimes not even very serious, in the stalinist years it was just death, and there in more such vegetarian times, coastal people could go to prison, as there are many dissidents or dissidents. so what is this of course, this is the concern of parents for the fate of their children, and this is again a sign of identity, because you want your children to fight, you want them to be fighters, warriors, or you want them to have the opportunity to adapt to any what kind of problems will they encounter in life, and what is wrong now, tell me what our state is doing so that children

know from an early age that they will be soldiers, mothers and fathers want their children to be soldiers, in we are not educated at all, we are doomed, this is our fate, to be a military country, a military bark, militarized country, because this conflict is existential with russia, we need to prepare our children for this, otherwise this war will drag on for decades, only a powerful concentration of all efforts, a renunciation of one's own for the benefit of the state, certain sacrifices of time, energy, money. and even health and life, only this gives society the opportunity to win such an unequal war as the war with russia, this is such a story. mr. andrii's testimony, when there was really more talk in golechyna, even in the 80s and 60s of the 20th century, about the holodomor than in the central in ukraine, where he was the memory of the victims, you can

say, because here they knew about the holodomor already at the time of its perpetration, already in 32-33, and the assessment was that stalin was going to rebuild ukraine, some claimed, to populate it with muscovites altogether , and it was already clear then. that this is an attempt to reformat ukrainian, it was not far from the truth, because in stalin's letters such intentions were simply expressed, it is in the correspondence of serge gradenigo, the italian consul in kharkiv, who writes to rome that the current famine catastrophe will lead to changes in the demographic and national situation in ukrainian lands, it is obvious that such intentions, intentions were, it seems to me that in... important things a person feels intuitively, important things for any, any person are those places where it can be dangerous, and

we have an interesting moment here, how the number of ethnic ukrainians in the soviet union decreased between the censuses of 1926 and 1937. the number of all, almost all other nationalities increased within 20%, where. of which even more than 20%, but several peoples, ukrainians, kazakhs, mordovians, etc several small nations have decreased in number, this not only means great losses in direct deaths from hunger, but also the fact that it was uncomfortable to be a ukrainian in the ussr, and here there is a parallel between ukrainian jews, because many jews also chose a pretended identity change, in the ussr nationality could be recorded. according to the person , they declared themselves to be representatives of other nations, most often russians, and similarly ukrainians were recorded as russians, and we

now have an interesting situation, when the number of ukrainians in ukraine increased in the years independence, not only due to the fact that russians left ukraine, but also many of those who once changed their identity, they returned again, i had a friend who had a typical ukrainian surname. and insisted from the kharkiv region that she is russian, i explained to her that you cannot be russian, the etymology of your surname is ukrainian, and she assured me that no, we are russians, but after a while, after talking with my grandfather, she said, yes, it is true , we were once ukrainians, and then we became russians, now she has returned to of ukrainian identity, i'm ms. tetyana, i'm still thinking, you know, about what maybe we should try to perceive the 20th century, like that... what a century of genocides, since 1915 the genocide of the armenians began, we remember it perfectly , and then all these soviet

genocides began, the holodomor, the actual eviction of peoples, which was genocidal in nature, the holocaust during the second world war, in fact, in parallel with the holocaust , the crimean tatars were evicted by other peoples of the former soviet union precisely on the basis of their ethnic origin. died, and it's not at all the end, still continued. i recently, by the way, uh, i spoke with zhann belyanuk, our famous athlete, olympic champion, and we started talking about the movie hotel rwanda, which i once watched, he made a great impression on me and zhan told me, that he also looked at him, and then i realized that he looked at him with completely different eyes, because he has a father from rwanda, he is actually the bearer of this historical memory about him. the horror that was there, it was just genocide in essence, and he went to rwanda, and he tried to figure it out, and he is actually a bearer of memory, that is, as a person, about two

genocides of the 20th century, because this is what started in 1915, now it was in 1994, and people treated it in the same way in the world, as they treated the 15th year or the holocaust or the holodomor, they watched it later. they began to consider and shoot important films, here is hotel rwanda, and next to it is schindler's list, and this becomes the property of art, but everyone does not think about the fact that, in principle, it was necessary to save people, living people, not heroes, cinema? er, you know, really, i believe that genocides are a phenomenon of the modern 20th century, because now there is a tendency among genocide researchers, you know, to suppress, let's say, deny that the extermination of indians in america is also genocide. i still think that this phenomenon is connected with the 20th

century, with the possibility. infrastructural capabilities, with a certain development of human civilization, and you know, it seems to me that one of the problems is that neither the world, nor ukrainians, well, historians, probably already so, but here ukrainians and the world could not understand the nature of soviet totalitarianism, could not reflect on it, did not understand what it was ... a system that, in my opinion, surpassed nazism in its consequences, in terms of the level of this propaganda, in terms of how those methods that were used, because in fact the entire 20th century of ukrainian history, well, the soviet flavor, is an attempt to change...

memory, change identity, break the bond of generations, yes, as mr. dzisels correctly noted, parents should not tell children, at the same time trying to impose this new one the identity of this homo sovieticus, without memory, who is ready to go to fulfill an international duty in a neighboring country without much reflection, you know, i recently came across... an interesting study conducted already during a full-scale war by one person, a russian in e- is one of the cities of siberia and he asked about the presence of stories of deportation or gulag or repression in the family and tried to reduce the presence of such stories with the attitude of the interviewed

person to... the war against ukraine, and the correlation was absolutely clear, those people who have , have a memory of repression during the soviet union, they speak out against the war with ukraine, that is, we can certainly speak, and the holodomor is just extremely illustrative in this regard, how the memory of it was erased, because the authorities purposefully destroyed and archival documents. more and more people are talking about it now, we have purged party archives, cheki archives, we have an almost completely wiped out archive for the 32nd and 33rd years, so what is the government archive, that is, people's commissariats, education, health and so on and so forth, and we know that the last case, the imprisonment of a person for mentioning the famine, was in 1986. yes, that is

, perestroika is already underway, supposedly perestroika is in full swing, and people were still imprisoned for mentioning the holodomor, let’s say, and there were even death sentences, so there is, let’s say, a story about an engineer who had a magazine from western ukraine, where there was an article about hunger, and he received a death sentence, that is, we, we still cannot partially explain... we ourselves, what was that soviet past with that readiness to break people, to kill a person in a person, you understand, it was so, so scary, and mr. dzisel correctly noted that such an attempt to distance himself, well, that is already in the past, there are eyewitness accounts that they

tried to tell... and the children, let's say, either laughed or said no , grandma, you are inventing something like that, some fairy tales, this cannot be, of course, it was even earlier, before the 2000s, when the actual holodymorr entered the public space and returned and became the collective memory of ukrainians, let's remember the branding of yushchenko , and publications still appear in the west about yushchenko practically invented the holodomor, that is, not understanding how you... let's also recall the deportations that began, well, practically already in the 20s, especially intensified after the start of collectivization, and this was also an erasure of memory, because it was torn connection of generations, a person always ended up in the camps, and the family may have already died after the famine, i will remind you that during