a researcher of these peoples, a russian pivnyche, precisely because he was there, yes, he was exiled there, this is also a great example of all this, we will now return to igor kravets , mr. igor, andriy kozytskyi reminded me of this famous formula, if you forgive us, we are sorry and we ask for your forgiveness, but i remember that this formula when it was applied by the polish bishops in a letter to the german priests, it received a complete condemnation in poland at that time, it was criticized by the leadership of the polish people's republic, and it was not accepted in society, it was used for anti-clerical propaganda, and here the question arises, to what extent such a formula, if it is timely or not, can really help historical reconciliation, because we have said many times in relation to ukrainian-polish relations , we apologize and ask for... but it never fully

worked, that's the trick, it's not that it didn't work, vitaly, it didn't at all heard, especially in recent years, i don't know, do you remember this gesture of president poroshenko, 2016, when he kneels in front of the monument to the victims of the volyn tragedy in warsaw, in volyn square, and then the polish delegation leaves him just at that moment, yes, and this discussion, all we say is of course this.. . are the right words, instead, the main question now sounds like this: why does it not work in poland, why is it absolutely according to such neo-colonial and orientalist schemes, the attitude towards ukrainians is working now, it is very interesting what kind of discussion has flared up in the last few weeks in poland regarding volyn, when representatives of such a pro-european coalition have now begun to draw ukraine's attention to...

on the volyn tragedy, on the one hand, and on the other hand , representatives of law and justice began to criticize them for it, on the one hand, president andrzej duda, on the other hand, the column of the former minister of foreign affairs jacek chowputowych, who if in such an internal polish game, they made such a confession that they perfectly understand the ukrainian position, they perfectly understand when ukraine talks about things related to the past, they talk about like now you are talking in the studio, and this is basically what people write and say publicly, that of course we humiliate our political enemies, but who a few years ago pursued the same policy against ukraine, so volyn is a very convenient topic, it became , at least in the last 10 years, especially intensively, er, which is used when a, when poland has no idea about what... to fight with

today's ukraine, b, so that forever there is such an interesting polish saying, to chase a rabbit, yes, that is, to chase a rabbit so as not to catch, just all the time chase, chase, chase, chase, yes, when we talk about the question of exhumation, if the polish side is well aware that in order to unblock exhumations in ukraine, it is necessary to change the table on one, in words, one ukrainian monument in the forest , which... is 2 km on foot from the nearest fire road, where no one sees it at all, so that is, well, the absurdity of all these questions, all these problems connected with the past, if we talk about the polish-ukrainian past, he has now entered a very dangerous point, when such populist rhetoric has been adopted by those who consider themselves to be the successors of jedrowieta,

who seemed to have completely conquered polish colonialism towards ukraine, put it on a safe course and made it the essence of today's polish international policy towards its eastern neighbors , this is a very big challenge in polish-ukrainian relations, and then i see a problem in this regard. because it seems to me that the ukrainian side, on the one hand, correctly sees this problem, correctly sees the inclusion of such a problem polish, completely meaningless rhetoric from the polish side when it comes to issues of the past, but on the other hand, the ukrainian side does not fully know how to react, for example, when a few weeks ago minister kuleba made a statement that when he was asked in olsztyn about volyn, he started talking about the vistula campaign and so on and so on.

the transfusion of hectoliters of blood is starting again, which was, it seems, the end of the 90s, it was not at such a high, diplomatic level, it did not happen. instead, it took place in other discussion circles, now the political significance of such statements is much greater than in the 90s, but it seems to me that the ukrainian side does not fully know how to react in the sense that it is obvious that more poles died as a result of the volyn tragedy, as a result of the vistula campaign, ukrainians too died, but this... was a deportation, well, that is, if mathematically, mathematically, the ukrainians are at a loss, on the other hand, when the political bloodshed begins, who shed more as a result of those events is the wrong way to ask the question, because in order to safely talk about these issues,

it is necessary to understand that every victim is valuable, and the polish side, for its part, is trying to make such a polish holocaust out of volyn. uh, the polish holocaust means that if you don't deal with the holocaust correctly, you can't be heirs to the european heritage, which is basically the foundation of the post-war european union, but if the problem was that there was no polish holocaust here, it was bilateral conflict, one side suffered less, the other side suffered more, instead of talking about it, it is necessary to speak in such a formula, as we apologize and ask for... only that it does not work now, you are absolutely right , vitaliy, that the problem, the problem, the problem is actually in this, and it is not that it does not work, if the level the lack of cooperation has been increasing over the years in poland, and the proof of this

, i emphasize once again, is that the populist rhetoric, the seemingly right-wing rhetoric in this matter, has now been accepted by those who consider themselves inherit, a very dangerous trend in... thank you, thank you, mr. igor, igor kravets, polish journalist, we'll go back to the studio, i'm here to explain the political consequences, this week the european union finally, i would say, separated albania and north macedonia, which together were supposed to hold talks on european integration, he said , that the suspensions begin with albania, and they will begin with north macedonia only when north macedonia fulfills the conditions that were reached by it in the compromise with bulgaria. conditions of history, historically, i would say, ethnographic in nature, if so clearly speak out, because in order to start negotiations on accession to the european union, north macedonia has to recognize the bulgarian identity of north macedonia itself, change the constitution, change its own

view of history, this does not apply to the european union at all, but these are bulgarian conditions, and but now we have a very similar problem in terms of consequences with poland, maybe with other neighbors, and... polish politicians can be said to be competing between those who speak from the beginning of the fulfillment of conditions of a historical nature, emphasizes, and then negotiations with europe, and with those who, by the way, president andrzej duda, and speaker of the parliament shimon holovnia say: "let's first let ukraine become a member of the european union", and then we in the european union will talk about all this let's talk and solve all this. i don't know which build will win, to be honest, and how we should go about it. victory first, well, it will be different in different cases, there is no single recipe for solving such problems as you just mentioned, polish or bulgarian, northern macedonia, where i have been many times, refers to bulgarians as occupiers and those who

destroyed macedonians during the second world war, just as bulgaria, for example, protected its jews, and the jews of ... other countries where it was then, when it was an ally of the nazis, they killed in north macedonia, but the bulgarians recognized it only after 60 years, i think after 70 years, the macedonian community, it is very well remembers how bulgaria exterminated the jews of macedonia, but what i want to tell you, if you look at the map engelhart, you know, is an american researcher, a sociologist who has been conducting research on values ​​in 90 countries for 40 years. according to this map, north macedonia is the most among the former post-communist, post-colonial countries that have moved towards a democratic world, much further than albania, but you see a completely different political decision, because they are accepted into europe not on the basis of values,

but on the basis of political orientation, that is europe believed, for example, that bulgaria and romania have always been european countries, although both in romania and in bulgaria in my opinion... a very high level of corruption, well, not only at your high level, but also at the level of young people going abroad, and in this they are not very different from us. the less we deserve, but a different approach to us, because almost no one in europe believed that ukraine was a european country, no matter how much we insisted on it, they did not think so, that is why they treated them differently than those countries, but we have a common eastern destiny, and those countries are post-communist and we, and those are post-colonial, and we, and those, and those countries are orthodox, and we are orthodox. country, so many markers of identity say that the identification matrix is ​​similar, we are not

accepted until we get to europe, and they were already accepted, well, i would pay attention to the fact that in poland there is a certain resentment against, well, i risked using the word losers historical wars, you mentioned, mr. vitaliy, about the polish-lithuanian commonwealth, and in poland for a long time this discussion about the polish-lithuanian commonwealth... revolved around the role of poles in general and the polish community in the second world war, and we remember even when the polish sejm decided to enter into law about the institute of national remembrance of poland , punishment for attributing to the polish people the crimes of the nazis committed during the second world war, which was later canceled. there was a historic war with germany in poland, when societies appeared in response to what happened in germany. exiles, the poles talked about reparations from germany, i

assume that since poland definitely did not win these wars, the temptation arose, well, let's at least win the war with the ukrainians, because we cannot lose in this discussion, i will remind you of the words of a ukrainian political scientist, historian fox rudnytskyi in the conflict of the two sides is always a little more guilty, stronger, and the poles were stronger than the ukrainians and... in the 19th century and in the interwar period, when they had their own state, even in the communist camp, what was the status of ukraine as a republic within the ussr and poland as a satellite state of the communist bloc, this is also a different status. poles have always been a little stronger than us. around 2005, the idea appeared in poland that the status of poland in the european union could be raised thanks to the fact that the poles. will become the main specialists in poland on the issues belarus, lithuania, perhaps russia, will

one day bring these countries into the european union. the poles talked about the jagiellonian idea, since these territories, and lithuania, and belarus, and ukraine, or a large part of ukraine, once had a common historical fate with the polish people, then poland would thus become in europe, well, bilos was the main expert on ukrainian issues. perhaps lithuania, that is, brussels would not directly address kyiv, but warsaw, but you have good contacts, figure it out, this would undoubtedly raise the status of poland, and therefore the poles began to plan that ukraine joins the european union, but on polish terms, on polish requirements, the way they would like to see us, with everything they like, ignoring what they might not like too much. but ukraine is a sovereign state, and i prefer another way: if ukraine

becomes a member of the european union, we must comply with certain norms, there are certain requirements, and indeed, then we can already talk about this common historical memory, although i do not have there is great optimism here, because even the germans and the french, despite their very good relations, cannot to agree on assessments of many common events, whether the british and the french, for example. peoples will always have a different assessment, like today's already mentioned genghis khan or napoleon, but now it was a british film napoleon, it was again not liked in france, without a doubt, as the film brave heart two quarters of a century ago was not liked in england, because it represented the scots in a better way than the english, this will always exist, the only question is that it does not affect state policy and does not stir up some nationalist sentiments, well, i have to tell you that once again you are in favor of... always trying to bring history out of parentheses, it is problematic when history becomes part

of politics, i remember very well that even after the second maidan, when we all were incredibly enthusiastic about our bilateral relations, i headed the ukrainian part of the polish-ukrainian partnership forum, and here we sat at meetings, and opposite me sat people whom i have known since i was 25 years old, almost every one of us is with them in life experienced and... it seemed to me that now is such a moment when we represent two parts of the community, ready to cooperate, and we, and we have a common memory of the common life we ​​lived, we cannot have any her problems. disagreements, which we may have problems, we are generally our own people, and each time this meeting began with a question raising some historical issues, and each time, as a colleague said in surprise, well, listen, let's move from history to the present moment, just so as says szyman the head, we need to bring ukraine to at least the state in which poland is, politically, socially

, and so on, and then it will be much easier for us to deal with all the complex problems of the past. and it almost never found understanding, and that means we have to continue to drag this this cargo, we will now come back literally in a few minutes and continue our discussion, stay with us, and what do you think about the lacalut fix, reliably fixes, i have a toothache. lokhmiy advised, yes, and pieces of food do not get under the prosthesis and the price is good, the right choice for my pension. lacalut fix is ​​a new cream for extra strong fixation of dentures and healthy gums. so, your choice is lakaltfix. discover the power of teamwork at the 31st lviv international book forum. from october 3 to 6 in the powder tower

and the center of lviv, public interviews, discussions of ukrainian and foreign authors and intellectuals. presentations of new books, an autograph session, a children's program and a favorite night of poetry and music. join in lviv live, online in the world. october 3-6. more details, on the book forum. in the frantic flow of various events, it is sometimes difficult to determine what is most important. the country magazine will help to understand the essence of phenomena and processes. quality analytics and... independent experts with the country at the center of the main events. kratal contains natural components that carefully care for your heart. kratal improves blood supply and the functional state of the myocardium, normalizes the heart rate , and increases physical and mental performance. kratal is a natural force for

your heart miner atalanta only on meggogo. the miners plan to spoil the evening. of the italian goddess and continue the fight for the playoffs of the champions league. cheer on october 2 at 19:45, exclusively on mego. we will not die in paris, now i know that for sure. legends of ukrainian rock 35. lviv meet, the band mertvyy piven. october 14 at the lviv opera house, starting at 7:00 p.m. enjoy real rock: dead rooster, live sound.

fm halychyna. good music - important news. freedom in the mornings, only the most important, we say on topics that others are silent on, paying attention to details that others overlook, one air, one topic that we explore from different angles, now 20 minutes, because we value your time, watch weekdays at 9:10 on espresso, or

at any convenient time on radio svoboda youtube. we continue the flight program on the espresso tv channel. dissidents, rights defenders, public figure, yosyp zisels, historian, andriy kozytskyi. we are talking about genocides on this day of commemoration of the victims of the baba yar, about how historical memory in general, i would say, to transport, to remelt in the understanding of the future, that's how you can probably say, ot. for that, people need to understand what people should do with historical memory, so i will tell you a simple family story: my aunt, my grandmother's older sister, died at the age of 33 with... a one-year-old child, rahil portnikova , her daughter's name was tatyana, with a husband, also her age, but for my

grandmother it was an incredible trauma, well, that's clear, then losing an older sister, a young woman, her grandmother lived with this trauma all her life, moreover, i always had the certain impression that she was trying to distance herself from it, she lived in kyiv all her life and almost always, when she needed to go to che... serets, where babyn yar is located, she detoured the route, she chose yes, the route is trolleybus or tram, so as not to drive past, and i thought she wanted not to see it, and she mentioned it, very carefully and in passing, although she told a lot of family stories, but but not this one, i just knew that my aunt died in my grandmother's ravine with her family, when my grandmother was no longer it was, she died at the age of 90 in jerusalem. i was visiting my aunt, the sister of my other grandmother, i was looking at some of her archives, she was also in her 90s, and suddenly i see a photo of some pretty

woman, i say who is she, she says, well, this is your aunt, your sister grandmother who died in the grandmother's ravine, i was very surprised and i say, what does this photo do to you, when i was going to israel, my aunt tells me, your my grandmother gave me this photo to take to the museum, and i don't understand what to do with it, i didn't understand what to do with it, that is, my grandmother even knew that there is a museum in israel that honors the memory of the victims of the holocaust, she found this photo, which i had never seen in my life, she actually gave it secretly from the whole family to a relative who was going to israel , to honor the memory of this woman, and i think, lord, well, it's good that i saw that, that when someone was alive, and i took this photo, went to ... the next day to yadvashi it was possible to walk there on foot and i filled out all these questionnaires, surnames, took a scan of this photo and so on

returned this hall of memory to rachel portnikova, but the amazing thing was that my grandmother did not know how to talk about it, even with me, that is, she believed that it was only possible to entrust it to israel, somehow they did not understand her. this also speaks of what happened to memory in soviet society, and this question is , to you already at the end of our conversation, how to make it so that people understand this memory and that they are with this memory went forward, not back. well, as i understand it, historical memory and history are real, they are almost not compatible things, they are very different things, and they are many in many. sometimes contradict each other, historical memory is memories, stereotypes are certain, eh, the consequences of those totalitarian, authoritarian regimes that

planted their vision, yes, and real history is what historians do, they gradually dig into this thing and make it public that they have gained. i want to point out that the answer may lie in a completely different plane, for example, history proves to us, shows us, especially in the last century, that democratic countries, democratic peoples do not fight each other, by definition, there is no wars between democratic peoples, there are no genocides between democratic peoples and democratic countries. perhaps the only way to this is evolution, because more and more countries, if you look at the research of freedom house, there every... reports are published on how many more democratic and free peoples there are, and this is not the same thing, free and democratic peoples in the world, it

seems to me at first glance, such immersion in the democratic world and gradual entry into europe, democratic europe, into the european union, another, this is one way, but is we are sure that all nations can gradually enter a democratic civilization. to be honest, in recent years i have had great doubts about these, i even had such a skeptical idea that maybe god created humanity, not in that, not in that paradigm, that good always defeats evil, but that good and evil are established as two full-fledged factors that balance each other, such a principle of universal global balance is laid in humanity by god, and then... we understand our war better, because our war is not a war of russia against ukraine in recent years this is already a war of anti-democratic civilization,

where there is not only russia. north korea, china, iran, syria, there, belarus, venezuela , even, batswana, or someone else, who are openly anti-democratic, against democratic civilization, 55 countries already help us, now argentina has become the 55th country that helps us militarily. diplomatic, financial, weapons, that is, this is a certain image of an intercivilizational war. civilized civilization and anti-democratic civilization, so one way to get out of that sad paradigm that you talked about is to get to democratic civilization, when we will get there, no one knows, but we are still trying to be a part of it, that is, it is again about a change of identity, two minutes, mr. andriy, because it may continue until the end, well, i will quote

an english writer : on peirce, who once said that modern society believes that history develops only in the upward direction and will no longer be worse than it was. meanwhile, humanity knows periods of black, dark ages when regression occurs, and i think that, based on the fact that politics is a balance of power, ukraine must become stronger, not only as a military-industrial complex, bringing together allies, but also with internal solidarity, and this solidarity ... depends on self-awareness, and self-awareness should be comprehensive, as you rightly noted, and be proud of heroes and answer for your bad deeds or the bad deeds of our predecessors, because organicity, authenticity is difficult to destroy, if some historical myth is a myth, then it can be destroyed by an enemy or even time itself, if ukraine is true at its core, well, then she will be invincible, well, here it is...

seconds, minutes, yes, half a minute, we were all witnesses, as in the year 92, it seems, the former yugoslavia, which carried out genocide against certain nations that were part of it, there croats, bosnians and so on, was defeated thanks to the intervention of america and other countries that joined at the time, it was an attempt by the world to punish the ignominy of the country that conducted it. genocide, but a very unsuccessful example, because there were many opponents, i am not talking about russia, which was a pro-serbian country, but also many liberal circles in other countries, in western countries, were against such a measure, so this is the second way in general, to find a way to punish countries that carry out the genocide of others, a situation where you yourself do not want to use force against those who are ready to use force against own

compatriots, it's not these. it concerns the former yugoslavia, it concerns iraq, it concerns the regime of saddam hussein, exterminated the kurds and local shiites absolutely consistently, and then it was america who was guilty of using force against this regime, which in fact, he fought with his own population with absolute confidence, and well, then only evolution remains, well, let's assume that evolution is of course important to us here in ukraine, but we also need victory in the war, because we understand that without it, our evolution is unlikely good luck, so... i sincerely believe you, friends, even on such a difficult day for all of us and a difficult time for victory and peace for all of us, i thank our esteemed guests josyp zisvils and andrii kozytskyi for participating in this broadcast, thank you and you, dear friends, thank you for being with us for these two hours, this program was conducted by vitaly portnikov, good luck, a new week on espresso, weekly

summary information. non-analytical program, a clear understanding of the key events of the past week, analysis of the causes and consequences of these events from experts, forecasts of the development of the situation for the current week, the opportunity to ask your own questions and join the discussion, spend the final monday evening with us and confidently step into the new week. the new week project with khrystyna yatskiv and andrii smoly every monday at 8:00 p.m. on espresso. greetings to everyone from espresso, i'm in javamelnik and this is news: one person died, another was injured in kupinsk, kharkiv region, the regional prosecutor's office reported. the russians attacked the city of fpv in the morning.