can demonstrate this, that is, in principle , they are equal, equivalent, well, this will change everything then, and we will be in another world, now we will literally take a break for a few minutes and continue our conversation with mr. svolosov and mr. valery cheln, so stay with us, lakakalut fix reliably fixes, my dentist advised me, it also reduces inflammation of the gums, and the price is good, economical varnish. there are discounts on nephrobam, 20% in pharmacies, plantain, bam and savings. for joint and back pain, i take dr. tice's comfrey ointment. the composition of the ointment contains natural components that suppress pain and inflammation. healthy joints and back allow you to lead an active lifestyle. from pain in joints and muscles, natural german comfrey ointment helps to eliminate pain, inflammation, stiffness and contains natural ingredients. save money when you buy dr. tice's comfrey oatmeal at. in a large package of 100

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the result of their work is our safety, they, the boys from volyn, proved that everyone can be a warrior, strong in spirit, appreciate the ability to stand side by side with their brothers, until the holy victory. everyone who pilots a uav, understands it, prepares, treats, repairs, rolls kilometers of roads, fills piles of documents, significantly strengthens those who cover the enemy with heavy fire and return meter by meter our native land, join the ranks of the hundredth separate mechanized brigade armed forces let's stick together. we continue the politclub program on espressa tv channel. vitaly potnikov and our guests, the director of the middle eastern center, are with you studies ihorolosy, diplomat and politician valery chala. we congratulate you once again and join our conversation with the russian oppositionist, former deputy of the state duma of the russian federation ilya panomalyov. now he is in touch with us. congratulations good evening. well, here we are now. to discuss here and

there, in principle, if we are talking about this confrontation between democracy and dictatorships, the question arises of how to fight dictatorships, for ukraine this is an urgent moment, it is a russian dictatorship, how in principle it can be overthrown. modified or should i say forced to behave more cautiously, these are the issues that should be discussed, well, let's start with you, mr. ilya, well, with fire and sword, and how else and how else, well, that is, there are no democratic ways here now exists, if we are talking about dictatorships, dictatorships can only be defeated by force, and of course, well, this... it may not be exclusively there such brute force, one must also connect the head, and from putin’s point of view, one must also move in a diplomatic direction , there are sanctions, and pressure, and the main thing is internal

struggle, you need to bribe some of the elites to our side, of course, so that they help, but in the end... without the use of force, we will not achieve anything. well, that's a good question, right? what is the main thing, mr. valery, in this case, can there be other methods of reaction than the use of force in this case? well, in order to do something in a country, you have to be in that country, that's the first thing, all these governments in tibet or there, they don't achieve anything with one. well, they missed the point when, well, tibet is a problem with china, and it's a chinese problem territory, but there are those who advocate independence and freedom from this influence of beijing, and when you miss the moment when you can fight on your territory, then of course, then

you are not in exile, and you no longer influence these things directly, and then you have to connect the forces of some other, other countries, other international... organizations in order to influence, yes, and it doesn't work, as a rule, it works very badly, only historically for a very long time, so, well, dictatorships can fall due to what is not under them strong social or economic base, but as north korea shows, it is also possible to stick to the minimum. economic results in russia, i think, after all, if we are talking about russia, then, unfortunately, russia missed the moment when, as in belarus, it was possible, what the ukrainians did, by the way, the ukrainians went openly under bullets, as we now know, they are russian bullets and

russian grenades that were used against ukrainians, or i will remind you 2000, you mean on the maidan in 2014, yes, well, i was there obviously , the crimean special forces were shooting there, but this crimean special forces had been recruited for a long time and had already been known in russia, that is, it would have been the 5th year, when it was just beginning, i remember very well when near kiev, and by the way, i remember mr. igor, when we left for independence square in the morning, i was very afraid that there would be no people there, and i met mr. igor, and the first one, and it was the very morning, so on the same day moment, the orange revolution. so at the same moment at the same moment near kyiv on the former several hundreds of russian representatives were sent here in the pioneer camps, so that at the moment when

the ukrainian internal troops start to disperse the maidan, they would also join this operation, but before that they were not given commands, they were russian representatives and already.. . then it was russia playing, let me conclude, a victory that i do not say that it will be, and, by the way, i do not consider it, it is a complete defeat for russia in what way, that ukraine deoccupies the territories, then all subsequent actions, defragmentation russia, changes regime, well, i am not considering this scenario just now, so, unfortunately, it is unlikely that the events of the russian-ukrainian war can quickly change the situation for those people in russia. who would like to see another country, as we know, and mr. ponemalov, and who left this country there, they want it, and i have two news: one good, one bad, bad, that it will be long, good, i am sure , that at least the european part of russia, sooner or

later, historically, well, it will not move to another asia there, it is most likely in some form will gravitate towards european development. you say that it is impossible to change the situation in the country through emigration. that's your point, actually. here i am now looking at mr. valery, and he has such a background there that it looks like he is already inside russia, this is very nice, unfortunately, i think that unfortunately, the background, the background does not always decide the story, yes, but, but i believe that there is crying about what did not happen in the past, well, i agree with him 100% that there we could not there and... did not change the situation and that is why this is happening now

a large-scale invasion and the war started in the 14th year precisely because the regime in russia did not change in time, of course we tried, well, we have what we have in this sense, but now the question is not what was done there in the past, now the question is what to do in the future, and in the future in order to stop... this war, there is simply no other way than to destroy the regime in moscow, that is, we do not have such a question whether it will happen or not , the question is whether it is necessary to do, and of course, well, it must be stated that there the russian so-called opposition, it went bankrupt and it could not change the regime, i believe that it will not be able to do it in the future, but... such a large-scale invasion gave another chance to make new

armed formation, armed units, which are composed of russian citizens, to create a partisan movement inside the country, which is currently cooperating with the ukrainian services there on the oil refinery, on the air bases there, on other matters that i am doing. this is inside russia, and it is necessary to increase it, it is necessary to strengthen it, and it is necessary to simply move on to the fact that revolutionary events will take place, and here, when we will remember the past there in other countries, then we will easily remember examples of how and when they happened in the background defeats in the war there... there, well, for example, in germany, after the first world war,

we can also recall examples when nothing happened after the defeat there, for example, iraq, after the first desert storm, well, you have to that is why we have to make these changes happen right now and we can do it to do, we have everything in our hands, well, this is always a question, true, because it is an absolute dictatorship. correctly said that this is saddam hussein’s regime, he succeeded, despite an obvious military defeat, obviously a dictatorship, they very often show such resilience, which is not even expected under them, putin’s dictatorship, by the way, it was formed on such a basis, i would said, uncertain background, the state was after an economic crisis, the person who led this state was unknown to anyone, there were many other strong players, but she had already survived several wars, she has already survived several oligarchic conflicts, she was told that... russians love putin because they are as well off as they have never lived under him, this

was an economic truth, but this truth no longer exists, for many years, they live badly, for the most part, it also does not affect anything, well , to a certain extent, if we talk about the regions, the money that the regime currently allocates for mobilization, well, for recruiting, for mobilizing people, they led to the fact that these people for the first time got a big money and many say that in these distant settlements in siberia, others , they suddenly received more money and their lives are now better, but in general, if we talk about trends, of course the economic situation for russia is getting worse, only we have to remember, and we lived in the soviet union, we remembered how the soviet economic union came to be, but we did not notice it from the point of view that if you

live in moscow, and when cigarettes suddenly disappear, then for the first time you start to ask, and where are cigarettes, and either toothpaste, or sugar, or vodka, and that's what people have questions arise, while these questions do not exist, people in principle tend to lead their usual way of life, in addition, i think that there was such a ... a certain consensus in russian society, in fact, no matter how they say it, or it was , it was formed, relatively speaking, by propaganda there, in that from... the 90s, and we remember how in ukraine there was a dislike for politics and politics, after the 28th year, after 2008 , yes, that is, in principle, when people perceived it as something not bad or bad, and in russia this was also accompanied by war, and it seems to me that

that the point of no return was earlier, the point of no return was actually the constitution that was introduced. back in 1993, yes, when she gave dictatorial powers , by and large it all depended then on the person who uses them , as in the lottery, as in the lottery and and and from there it went because the circumstances in russia they sought either to separate or unite join together , that is, in principle, the centripetal and center and... and vice versa diverge, and this is the effort that forces them to unite again, and that's it stage, it is very difficult to imagine what could happen in the near future, events that could lead there to the collapse of russia or something else, but one should always remember, and this history of russia, at least 20 centuries of the world, that everything there can quickly end within one ,

two or three days, no one knows what it could be, but the regime itself... by and large , it is fragile, and the loss of the vertical, the power vertical destroys it almost immediately. there is one point that i would like to ask rather than: it is very often said that the attitude in russia to many issues differs from ukrainian, and historically, maybe it is so, especially the attitude to human life, yes, that is, but i remember when putin in an interview with an american journalist... when asked about kursk and the death of russian sailors, he said , what happened when he called, well, he drowned and laughed, many people in russia did not like it, there was a very serious rejection of such a position, disregard for human life, and i also believe that there should not have been such a gap in the historical interval, so that we diverged like this

in attitude to human life, as it is is happening, we see from... now in russia, my question is whether there was an assumption in ukraine, including that it was part of military planning, by the way, that if we repulse the advancing russia and many people die in the war, well there in a hundred thousand who have already died, a hundred thousand, then the war will end, then everything will be the same, whatever the attitude, it will still affect russian society, it is very, very strange, it is true, because the people who lived in the soviet unions could not invent. and why is it different in ukraine attitude now, after all, we lived for a long time in the soviet union, by the way, i am not sure that the attitude is different, i think that it is precisely because the attitude in ukraine is not the same as in russia, but also not the same as in europe, ukraine survives in this war at all, the ukrainian cost of life is less than the cost of life, less than in belgium or portugal, this is true compared to those, but do we have a chance, could he tell us that after all

, the number of dead including this is happening now and... and st. petersburg, and there are already 4,000 contracts in moscow, in my opinion plus there is a local one, it’s up to 800 dollars to be prepared for the war, thousands of dollars, 4,000 is a contract, and plus a municipal surcharge, that is, st. petersburg is the same story, or can the results of this bloody war really affect , and this furnace is for the reputation of the government, you can at least for the reputation of the government. well, i believe that someday it will definitely have an effect, but the question is that now the attitude of russians, well, to life in general, is such that nothing depends on them, that no matter what they do, it does not change the fact that is happening around, well there and it’s not only from the point of view of politics, but also from the point of view

of social affairs there, well, anything, and precisely... well, if there is an opportunity to make money from it, well, if our life is all the same there it costs nothing, but you can earn there for your family and everything else, they try to earn, and there is still such an illusion, well, among many, that it is all voluntary, well, that is, if someone there in the village signs a contract for this very thing to stay there he chose such a fate. "they choose their own path, and of course it's not like that, of course, even if they sign voluntarily, that's all. not because of the circumstances of their lives, well, but it will calm the people who live there in moscow, there in st. petersburg, there in other

places, and of course it is very bad, but it dulls this sense of danger and that something bad is happening, but at one point, of course, it will change, it will definitely happen, but mr. igor rightly said that... well, a lot depends on social affairs, and here i am now, i am very i recommend reading a book here, it's called a mobilized nation, it's about the germany of the second world war, and there's a lot of interesting things there, there are many parallels with modern russia, er, and first of all, that the germans were very worried about the beginning of the second world war. 39th, and when they later saw that nothing like that was happening inside their country, they calmed down. and then there, even when there was a defeat there

near stalingrad, they did, well, we heard something there, but the main thing was when hamburg happened, and the war came home, and that's all heard when there was an energy crisis, there was not enough coal, and we don't even know about this episode in... the war, and for the germans of that time, it was the main thing that shaped their attitude to their government and to the war in general , and that is why i believe that we must now do our best to influence the russian economy, everything is in such an unstable state there, inflation is rising, prices are rising, and this can affect the mood inside russia. very to the point and we can on... it again influence and we do nothing in this direction, unfortunately. i want to tell you that it is necessary to understand how totalitarian regimes prepare the population for war, and then we can understand why, say, russians

sign contracts, many people in ukraine avoid mobilization, and it looks different than in russia , although there were also a million, a million people who left, who left the country, but what i want to say, there are two methods of bringing people to their will. participation in military actions, realistically: first, it is ideological, it is like in hitler's germany, in the soviet union, when a certain part of people were simply treated ideologically, they believed in the ideas of the national socialist workers' party or the cpsu, the cpsu at that time, i remember how i read in the memoirs of the famous russian writer there, gennady vladimirov, who there 22 in june of 1941, he was a cadet on the border between the soviet union and germany, well, between poland and poland, let's say that, and they got drunk on... rejoicings in bialystok, because they believed that, thank god, germany had finally attacked, and now we come to paris, well, they didn’t even think that it could

be different, they had the joy of the victors, if tomorrow there was a war, if the enemy attacked, yes, that is, on june 23, everything was already different, he talks about the 22nd, i’m not talking about german soldiers, there is another method, which is also absolutely effective, you bring the population to a barbaric state in social terms. in the plan, when the population has no social alternatives, well, in general, just this population, it actually does not know how to live its life, and after that you offer it money for participation in the war, but putin's regime has no ideological possibilities, it is not an ideological regime, all this talk about a great russia, it is not communism and not nazism, it is a general idea that is not perceived as one for which one should sacrifice one's life. there are not many nationalists, so-called chauvinists in russia, and the majority of people are apolitical, but when you offer money to a person living in a village who has no money, she basically

has no chance, she will never have her own apartment, she will never won't be able to normally to get married, she will live with her parents for the rest of her life, that is, she is actually an outsider, and here she is given the opportunity to become not an outsider, to climb the social ladder, as putin admitted yesterday to what he is, a veteran of another war. positions, money, everything. there are a million social alternatives in ukraine. that's what the problem is. any person, beyond the level of prosperity, has a million social alternatives related to the fact that the economy is more flexible, that there is no such control of the state over the economy, that there are no frankly poor regions compared to others. therefore, a person has a million. in addition to serving in the army, if this person is not politically involved, he has opportunities, we say, maybe, if we paid, no, we can pay money, if

the person has no alternative, if... there is, he will use the alternative, if she doesn't want to serve, that's the difference between democracy and dictatorship, that's right, but it 's not a pure model, russia started a war not with ukraine, but with georgia, that is, the decision on military operations was made by putin in the early 2000s, well, not only him, in 2007 he told the whole world about it, that's right, but he started it then, the russians still had social elevators in... in 2008 they were there and there were no such problems, there is probably one more nuance here: each country is separate, then the russians rose a little higher economically , but they saw how they were lagging behind other countries, from the west, from this, during the period here we were already equal, ukraine was losing to russia economically, but the moment came when there was no longer such a gap, such gaps were not large, and putin saw...

that another model can show the same ones at least the results, that is, they began to feel this inferiority towards the americans, don’t tell me, a lot of russians at the top of the russian federation, they feel their inferiority in relation to the west, peskov, who is temporarily acting as a propagandist for putin, has a wife or an ex there wife, american citizenship, daughter, french citizenship there, everything is there. a family with citizenships is a country, all the families of soviet leaders stalin, khruchev, brezhnev, andropov and all others, all live in the united states of america, gorbachev is this, this is de facto recognition that these countries still showed them a bigger model of development, so when they are faced with the impossibility of showing a model that is competitive, they go of course in the other direction, let's point to those on which we can show that we all - still...

they are so big, and this feeling of greatness, well, look at ordinary life, you can walk around poor, unhappy, but you want to be there very confident in yourself, and even if there is a group, and this is the phenomenon of this group, well, no gang, incorrectly said in russia crowds, crowds of crowds in ukrainian, that is, this phenomenon, when you you unite, all this and here is greatness, this is a very big thing and it works in ukraine, yes, please. i think that we just need not to confuse the moods of the elites here, then the moods of ordinary citizens there, because the elites, of course , here the inferiority complex is here in its entirety, it has always been, and it remains so, but we can play on it, on the contrary, we can use it to pry people out of this environment and... tempt them to switch

to our side there, but and again this does not happen either, but from the point of view of the average citizens there, they do not have such a thing complex, for them, on the contrary, it is such an abstract dream, all these americas, there is europe, there is everything else, and that is why there is an eternal battle, and it is very, very easy to play the power on this, and that is exactly what... she does, here, well we talked about social elevators, there were people there for the whole 90 years, somewhere in the outback, it felt that they did not exist, precisely because all the capital was concentrated in big cities, and people there, well, for example, there from trans-siberian villages, from where i was gathered as a member of the state duma, they

never in the 90s and in the 2000s, they did not feel that they were something.