on our side, but again, this does not happen either, but from the point of view of ordinary citizens there, they do not have such a complex, for them, on the contrary, it is such an abstract dream , all these americas, there are europe, there is everything else, and that is why an eternal battle, and it is very, very easy for the government to play on it, and that is exactly what it is doing, and... here, well, we talked about social elevators there for the whole 90 years, as people there somewhere in the hinterlands, it felt that they did not exist precisely because the whole capital was concentrated in large cities and people there, for example, there with the deputies of the state duma from the novosibirsk villages where i was gathered never, even in the 90s and 2000s, felt that they could do what... and they never had

an alternative, that they could say that it's okay if not putin, then someone, the last alternative theoretically existed when zyuganov was in 1996, and then there was a certain upsurge in the middle of the country, someone voted for him there, even there many people say that the majority voted for him, but even precisely because people think that the majority voted for him. but he was not collected, he was not allowed into power, and that is why people say, well, that's all, well, what are we doing, but nothing changes, we will go about our business there, i want to continue a little, mr. ilyu , we did and are doing research on the occupied territories, and this is what we noticed, if we are talking about ordinary russian soldiers of various nationalities who are in the occupied territories. that they are attracted to

power in addition to money, for the first time they can do without and impunity, yes, for the first time they can demonstrate power, they can finally implement this power complex in relation to others, and this happens very often, and this is, yes, this is the right moment, well, this is a story with a type, it is, only with an armed type, and it shows , by the way, others, i would like to be here, maybe i'm pouring from the side. but i was involved in russia for a certain period there until the 14th year, and i saw how it gradually changed, a lot of young people, in fact, well, they are not average russians, but all the same, they gradually reduced their desire in general somehow there to criticize something, they were gradually introduced into some kind, it’s not just one regime of putin, there are 100 people, no, it’s not that nikanav is there, he’s very famous... this is molotov’s grandson, by the way, when he

got the dacha, and this is his molotov rebentropa says, okay, he already tried to show himself as some rational political scientist there, then he was on tv screens, and then suddenly he got a dacha through the fence there barvikha, they gave him this dacha, that's simple. for something, and suddenly a person began to behave in a completely different way, now is the first beginning of a large-scale invasion, when russian television, by the way, was not yet completely, well, closed for comments, he appeared there and said a lot of such terrible things in the direction of ukraine, that is why the person has changed, well, it seems to me ideologically, it is always it was like that, i remembered the publication for the rest of my life, some kind of estonian publication of my time and this too. it seems to me

that this is the disease of the russian elite and what led to these events, it asked two people to write articles, the grandson, this is really me hamofon ribbentrop, former minister of foreign affairs of hitler's germany and the grandchildren of vyacheslav molotov, the former people's commissar of foreign affairs of the soviet union, the signatories of this agreement, and here was ribbintrop's text about how the germans understand their responsibility to the baltic countries, how they rethought the past, how they apologize for it , and nikanov's text. that the soviet union could not do otherwise, that it was defending itself against a possible attack, that it did not believe that it was an occupation, that many people in the baltic countries wanted to be a part of the soviet union, i.e. two worlds, two worldviews were visible there, and the horror was that the grandson of molotov, the grandson of a man who was one of the participants in the victory in the second world war, had talked with roosevelt and churchill, received a hero of socialist labor, precisely as a member of the state defense committee.

speaks like hitler, and rebentrop's grandson, who was executed at the nurbud trial, speaks like an ally. and one more moment, the key word, by the way, we discussed other reasons. when the conditions are created for this, it seems to me here you need to create an illusion or a feeling that you are being attacked, you are on the defensive, your family is behind you, your home, your country is behind you, and always that germany, originally hitler's there, created it, we are being attacked, that is, we are being pressured , the poles are attacking us, well there, even when they annexed czechoslovakia, it was the same, yes, they put pressure on the germans, they speak german there. and we have to protect them, that is, the key thing is to create the conditions when a person feels that he is protecting his own, and then it is not the same for them as they were created for the fascists, the nazis, for the nazis, the same story, why are you going there, and because otherwise we

will be attacked, or, well, plus, you still have to create the illusion that you are, after all, by your, i don’t know, birth, origin, you are higher well, it’s somehow higher, maybe before or before lviv, by the way, and what about russia in this regard is now explaining to its people why they are higher, yes, why higher, and i’m not talking about the regime here, in general, about people from moscow who come to any provincial city in post-soviet russia, and explain how it really should be done to live, so they literally have the same illusion as hitler during the second world war. well, that ’s exactly what happened there, literally the same thing that ebels said there about the fact that if we didn’t attack, we would be attacked there, that we are protecting our russian-speaking people there, the donbas , everything else there, but the question is that now the ukrainian army is in the kursk region, and

somehow i don't see people there among the locals who would defend their territory, someone has fled there. and someone remains, but i do not see opera there at all, and this is the flip side of the same thing, what i said, how they are not ready to join in fighting there, they are not ready to defend themselves, because they believe that they do not influence anything, they are spectators here, they do not participate in the events, and this is from one on the one hand, it is scary, on the other hand. this is our opportunity, again, which can be used for victory , the mobilization is taking place, and again there is such a parallel with this same fascist germany, that here is the book that i quoted there,

german sociology shows that there, too, people were not very disposed to protection country, they delegated it to hitler. hitler was doing something there, they supported him, and they themselves were more like observers here of what was happening, the change in this mood began after hamburg, after the bombing of hamburg in 1943, and after that people began to say that this is how it should be defended, because it they will not forgive us the death of the jews, the fact that we destroyed them, and that is why... we must defend ourselves, on the other hand , the popularity of the regime has fallen substantially, and this also opened the possibility for the events of 1944, when there was an establishment against against hitler , and putin

understands this, and that is exactly why he chooses to let people just wait there, let them be calm, but the degree of this tension. tension, he does not raise in the middle of the country, he is afraid that his popularity will disappear very quickly. well, this is a very interesting point, in any case, it is clear that we are dealing with a society always darkened in such regimes, which does not feel like a real player, because if it starts to feel like a real player, they, she feels responsible, and the elite , and it is also important to finish this part of this thought, she afraid of responsibility for evil. act, because she understands that if she loses power, she begins to be responsible for the crimes she has already committed, hoping for impunity, then it turns out that she must go to the end, at that time society will go to the end of treason or betray, but here is one very important point, which i concluded from the fact that mr.

said that ordinary russians will not put up any resistance, this is the second part, well, the reverse side of the coin, until they are systematically integrated into this entire history. or a civil servant, or he is at war, and that is, the key to stopping the war from the russian side is to overcome the payment of this apparatus, well, that is another question, or when there is a real doubt in the power apparatus that it will be supported in the future, so too in all regimes there was such and such a power apparatus, the fsb, in russia, the main thing here is to create an alternative apparatus, this is the more important guard corps of the islamic revolution in iran, who will pay the alternative, here is a great example for you, in the communist party there is no such thing in china, but it is still built as a military regime with... all the victories of mao zedong, the main body there is the military council, the communist party, the communist party, we always forget

that this is not the cpsu, where the military was not reduced to a state such, i would say, insects, and this is really a party based on the army, a constantly active rate, a constant active rate, absolutely period, and we must also remember this when we talk about these regimes, we, by the way, in in the next part of our program, we will talk about china, i would like to thank ilya panomaryuv, a russian oppositionist and to a former deputy of the state duma in russian. federation for participating in this part of our program, and we will continue our conversation with igoremolos, valery chaly in just a few minutes. damn, stairs, my legs can't walk anymore, wait, i'm suffocating, that there is no health, and what kind of health is there in the sixth decade, and i thought so until i tried herovital. gerovital plus. a phytovitamin complex that cares for the heart and strengthens the body. gerovital plus, good health, active life. the novelty of herovital energy. even more iron for good deeds. herovital energy - reception

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reconstruction in different regions of ukraine, about people's rights, opportunities and personal experience. this is what olga's house looked like last year he has now i am not spending money at the moment. about how to unite the country in the process of recovery, in the project program of reconstruction and development of cities. every saturday at 18:30 at espresso. we are servicemen of the griga separate unit, named after volodymyr griga, of the platoon of unmanned aviation complexes of the 76th separate battalion of the 102nd separate brigade. in the zaporozhye direction , combat clashes take place daily due to the constant assaults of the enemy, this is not the vyminayepil direction, which our battalion has been defending for almost two years. we are currently in need of 3 times as many adjustments and fire damage from the sky, so we are asking everyone who cares to raise funds for 20 dji mavic classic and 10 mavic 3t drones. yes, the amount is not small,

but the lives of your siblings and relatives are much more expensive. we really hope for your support. expansion, let's not let the occupier take a step further together and accelerate the victory together, glory to ukraine, the hero of the word, we continue the politclub program on the espressa tv channel, with you vitaly portnikov, igorolosov, oleriy guys, we will now join natalia plexienko botyrskyi, an expert on east asian issues, a foreign policy expert, to our broadcast. congratulations ms. natalia, congratulations, good evening, and we have joined mr. natalia to talk about china, because china is also before our eyes, this state that was modernizing, before our eyes turned into a state that looks more like the china of mao zedong than the china of dengsiopin, but i have to say, mr. natali, that in recent years i

have rethought the meaning of the famous proverb, the famous proverb 'i, which ascribes densiopin when it comes to. about its economic changes in china, deng xiaoping used to say that it didn't matter what color the intestine was, it only caught mice, and this was explained, this proverb explained that the chinese communist party, during the rule of dan xiao ping, just when he was the informal leader of the state and, by the way, the head of the military council of the cpc central committee, which we have already mentioned, she allowed market elements in the economy, and everyone always believed that this was such a moment of china's survival. because the market economy allows it to survive, the planned economy does not allows, and i now think that maybe it was not said for the sake of it, but that it does not matter what tools help the chinese communist party to get its power, just to get it, and then the logic is that what happens to xi jinping, it is , and it is not some kind of, i would say, a change of landmarks, but this is quite obviously a continuation

of the politics of denseopin, and the politics of his heirs, and by the way, the politics of those who were before densin, mao zedong and jonglai, maybe they just hold power since time immemorial victory in the civil war and are ready for any decision, only that this power remains in their hands. can you say that? in a certain way, you can say so, because china, as we see with you, adapts the best forms of everything that falls into their hands, and adapts it to their own, to their own realities. and that's why, when you said that china... started opening up, on the one hand they realized that at some point for their survival, for investment, for their development, they need to start this openness, but not less, a number of enterprises remained in the hands of the communist party, which are still state-owned, and the state manages them, and these enterprises, they received, for example, benefits from the state, despite the fact that the locomotive

of the chinese economy, in general, was small business, medium-sized business , but none the less. we see that by this time, the chinese government not only did not give up control, but it again returned to its usual forms. as for xijin ping himself, he also says that they are building socialism with the chinese characteristics in the new era, that is, they will borrow what brings them profit for their economy, what drives them, they are happy to copy technologies, they are happy to accept... investment in exchange for giving these technologies to their territory , well, now they will move their socialism, with chinese features, to a technological state that will try to defeat the united states of america, become a global leader, well, maybe it shouldn’t be like that at all, if they get such economic power, then they want to this one economic forces to join politically and become

a state that can be on par with the united states, which is illogical, on the other hand. yes definitely, definitely, maybe the world missed this moment, when money was poured into china and they did not notice that behind these hidden abilities lay the ambitions of the state, which was oppressed, well, the chinese are talking about a century of booty and about, and in any case, the chinese will you want to talk about a great civilization, an original, great civilization that should occupy a better place than it has been allocated, a question for ukraine, i... do not pretend to know all these details, the only thing i will say is that i followed the documents that were accepted gradually, and by communicating with the chinese. different chinese, from hong kong, from taiwan, from beijing, i understood that they are moving and at the same time want to become great, well, in this new, new era, and

regardless of where he lives, a chinese in taiwan, let's do china is great again, yes, but donald's antithesis, and for that reason it was written, i still remember chinese documents, 20 years ago, that the chinese should, well, eat meat from rice, and not just one rice, that is, it is necessary to ensure... well, there was a whole program to essentially ensure the growth of the middle class, yes, the growth of the middle class inevitably had to lead to the correction of the political system, and it came, i thought that would happen in china , when they will have billionaires, that is, that there will be people who are economically independent, more and more, what you, and what happened, what happened, what do you say to whom, i believe that xiaojin pin returns to magadzed, not to not to deng xiaoping. he returns to maadan and thus under control puts, in what way? first, businessmen have either been pushed out in the last two or three years, how many examples, or

pushed out of bounds, if you don’t want to share and don’t give part of your business to the communist party, or not become part of the system, that is, and ending with the disappearance of people, they disappear in they are not only ministers of defense, as recently, but also billionaires. somewhere, we don't know these details, there was, there was a billionaire who entered the american market, a beautiful business, once he disappeared, he's gone, so i think that's why they're just running into a model, when the economic development became, well, it somehow did not coincide with the political system, and now it turns out what to do with the political system, and the choice they made is, in my opinion , uncharacteristic of china, the thai sky is large enough to develop, that is, in they have a population that allows, that is, to develop internally, and they went the way, well, at least i see statements of expansion,

that is, well, they do not think that this is expansion, that this is taiwan, that this is their titan, but compared to that world, which was before this is already territorial expansion, there is nothing new, it was also actually annexed like that, even more than taiwan, i would say, but they are one belt, one road, economic influence, entry, i was a representative of ukraine in the organization of american states, where am i going i will not go, and as an ambassador there in some countries of the caribbean basin for the cooperation of the united states, i will tell you, i am coming to the country, that means the chinese, the chinese airport, the main, big road, the port, and everything there is... big chinese, that is, in everyone, it was an expansion economic, and they were influencing in this way, they could continue to do so, well, they continue this expansion as well, and why did they

switch more to military issues, recently they built a modern submarine, a nuclear new one, which sank, the truth was there already in june sank right at the shipyard when this boat was being delivered, but it is so, i have a question, do we realize what this will mean for ukraine. will i still finish for ukraine, why is it important, because we have a lot of people who think they are will be stretched in a twine between the usa and the west and china, more than we think to tell you, and this is the key issue for us, let china develop until it becomes part of our problems, and now the main thing is that china is part of our problems today, and unfortunately, i do not see options where this is part of our solutions, at least in the war with russia, good. well, i want to say, somewhere in the early 2000s, i read a book by mansor olson, there is such a well-known economist, institutionalist, and

it is there that he writes a lot about china and writes about the processes of centralization, that is, it is the end of the 90s, he wrote on this material, and he absolutely says that china will reach a certain certain crisis that mr. valery said, and so on... one of the possible and possible and realistic options - this is the centralization of resources, and after this centralization of resources, the country finds itself in a situation of either collapse or external expansion, and they, and then actually all this happens, and it was very strange when we talk about our experience, that is, russia went through this path faster, than china, russia will provide. began centralization resources, found itself in a certain systemic crisis, and as a way out of this systemic crisis, it saw expansion, china is moving along the same

path, and by po'. by and large, yes , it is obvious that china is part of our problems and by no means the solution, and it is also obvious that, based on this theory and practice , we will see further expansion of china and russia, joint expansion, and if they are not stop, expansion, will russia be in the role of a proxy, a proxy of china's power, such a chinese hezbollah, i'm sorry, maybe it will be chinese hezbollah. maybe after some step they will want to throw alikhamenei, if they can, the chinese alikhamenei, but i, i understand here that the dimensions are disproportionate, yes, but in principle, as of now, they are absolutely satisfied with being the chinese hezbollah, the russian, the russian, well of course , that's what they say, we finally returned, the war brought us back to china, that's another element that i

know from... experience, in the 22nd year we had, well, a serious pause at the official level with chinese contacts, well, the president of ukraine does not received the chinese ambassador, well, because they acted quite clearly against then, well, as i will continue, and in this situation, well, some of my acquaintances, working diplomats, asked me to use their experience there somewhere to try to find some greater common language, they were allowed... the chinese then spoke more, unlike the previous time, they were allowed more freedom in discussions, we had interesting discussions, well, i won’t say with whom, but these are official chinese representatives, they ended with what we wrote in ukrainian crisis media center, we had employees who were fluent in chinese and worked in china, wrote such a very complementary material in the style of chinese,

the second edition. and they read it and said it's great, and the second part was why china should turn to face ukraine, not only russia, still take a more balanced position, and they said, this is very good material, we need it, we we will even publish it in the party organ, just add a few more paragraphs, what paragraphs, uh, well, anti-american, anti-american, well, because that's the point, that is, the question, you won't pass like that, you won't pass in this car. cooperation with these people has ended, that is, anti-americanism is a big part of why yes, why is this happening, ms. natalya, here is an interesting moment, firstly , anti-mechanism, and secondly, something else, in 2022 we saw on the pages of the chinese media, well at least such more or less uncontrolled ones like the south chain the morning post, other such publications, quotes from the statements of chinese experts

at a very high level. directors academic institutes, that russia with its attack on ukraine has significantly limited its influence, that it will lose the war, that china should find an opportunity for some kind of, i would say, balance of interests in this war, to talk with both moscow and kyiv, there are no such statements anymore, what happened during this time? it seems to me that there were not enough of them, and this was said by experts who in any case were connected to american think tanks, that is, we ... we must understand that the chinese actively interacted with the americans until the war happened , and when they are now are already gradually withdrawing and censoring even such experts, because, for example, very recently the material of one of the experts, who was once quite well-known among them and belonged to such expert bodies, was published, and he wrote about the fact that russia will lose, that is, he

described in his material that... russia is losing and presented the arguments why and why china needs to maintain this important position, but he was very seriously attacked by experts who support the completely opposite opinion, who are the voices of the party, and what's more, his taken away from this institution to which he belonged, that is, from my point of view, these were those voices who, in any case, believed that they ... could express this opinion more broadly, but to this day, party censorship still it puts pressure on such experts, and for the most part we see how their media rebroadcast russian narratives, and if there is, for example, a claim that they weigh the position and allegedly add ukrainian opinions or.