described in his material that russia would lose and presented arguments why and why china needs to maintain this important position, but he was very seriously attacked by experts who support the completely opposite opinion, who are the votes of the party, and moreover, he was taken away from that the institution to which he belonged, that is, from my point of view, these were those voices who, in any case... believed that they could express such an opinion more broadly, but today the party censorship still puts pressure on such experts, and for the most part, we see how their media rebroadcast russian narratives, and if there is, for example, a claim that they weigh the position and allegedly add ukrainian opinions, or even president

zelensky, then they do it in such a way that in any in this case, ukraine looks in a very bad and negative world, and recently it is even more er, even more noticeable from my point of view, in the chinese media, but it is interesting that despite all the anti-americanism, sydzenpin wants to be biden's partner, the summit of sun- francisco, everyone these meetings, he is really trying all the time to build such a dialogue with... precisely with the president of the united states, he wants to do what putin would do if he could. you remembered the san francisco summit well, after this summit everyone expected something new, large-scale. we remember that a personal meeting, there were certain conflicts then, there and by the way, around ukraine, this is also a topic that divides them now. what was interesting was decided, but it is not clear in those on the paths of this garden, and what did not end in anything. china

is not over, so i have great doubts that china will change this trend, rather it will really, as they say in the united states, constantly get closer to russia, well, to have russia as a tool, by the way, not only in terms of territory or any actions there , as a proxy, and the arctic, that is, there is an arctic, china has already taken practically all of them. these rights to pass through the arctic route, that is, china does not, in principle , have any serious arguments why they should change their policy now from these points of view, well, everything is fine, that is, the only thing that they really start to twitch when putin loses, they don't want to be with the losing side, that's for sure, that's why i think that china is for china, well, for china's position, we have to... fight,

of course, i i don't know how it is with us, i'm saying, i don't know how, with us now the ambassador will most likely come back, that is, most likely, people say so, unofficial journalists say, who are aware of this, that they will change the ambassador, well, again , it won't solve the problem because we have nothing to offer china, that is, we have what, they want, as we have, by the way, you know that we have an active strategic partnership agreement, it has remained so. yanukovych went and signed it, but it was not torn up, but it is written there that we have to give, for example, what a time it was, mator sich to give, to give what is actually impossible now, because we have partner states that we are supplied with weapons, that is, we cannot do everything at the same time, we cannot do it, and our actions, when we gave our former soviet ships to the military, and they made it for themselves. and no one

everyone does not remember this, and the chinese do not see us at all, they do not see us at all, and we cannot offer them anything, because it will be against our interests today, if even before the large-scale war we offered the chinese a way there to make a district road around kyiv for huge funds with government guarantees, then we decided that it would be better for us to build the road ourselves, yes. that now the chinese, by the way, calculated, and this is a moment that was subtle, at one time the chinese were offered areas in the crimea, big, and it was one of the subjects of conversation, speculation, well, yes, that is, we have run out of arguments, we have run out, in my opinion, of what we can offer china, and china, for its part, well , seeing the position, is not interested in these proposals, let's be honest, mrs. natalia.

the chinese wanted to build a deep-sea port there during yanukovych's time, it was supposed to serve as a trade port, but nevertheless all trade is chinese, it comes down to... i would also like to mention xijin ping in relation to biden, then we should pay attention to chinese such proposals where china, where china, through sidping's mouth, reminded biden that the world is big enough, and two countries as big as china and the united states of america can fit in it absolutely freely without interfering with each other, that is, here is china's proposal that the world it is possible to divide the country conveniently for... in fact, in such a way as not to interfere with each other, not to cross each other's interests. well, plus one proposal, this is technological pressure, which is the basis, the locomotive of china's movement, accordingly, the restrictions that biden introduces and unites

around partners, high-tech countries, well, it is obvious that china does not like this at all, that is, these are such proposals, the conversation between the two countries revolves around them. it is obvious that the united states today is not ready to allow china to achieve such an advantage that it divides the world, relatively speaking, into two parts, and with regard to ukraine, what we can offer is true here, i agree with mr. valery that the tools are not so much, another matter is whether we are ready to be, for example, hungary or serbia, such a country loops between different poles there, especially in the current one. conditions when security guarantees are also important for us, when our economic potential, military potential is important for us, and we depend on the europeans and the united states of america for this, so we can switch to china, but chinese loans are a very serious dependence, such

hidden, which many countries fall into, well, plus, when we are talking about, let's say, our western partners, still, despite the fact that ... are not ideal, despite a lot questions about democracy, a lot of questions about everything that is happening, even around the support of ukraine, after all, these western countries share values, but china and its partners do not share values, and china shares and sends only money , and accordingly you cannot be a reliable partner of china, no matter how you are, today you are a profitable partner, today you... you can give a deep-sea port there or more fields, let's say, or some other resources for china, but this is still not equal absolutely any friendship, it is not an equal partnership, and i think that ukraine needs to weigh very seriously, even in matters of reconstruction, if

such a thing arises, because i have heard many proposals, for example, how to drag china out, and our authorities have periodically talked about reconstruction, among other things, about projects for china there. and some of our western partners, but still , i think that in this case we would be better off without such proposals, because we do not know what is behind it, what is behind those opaque loans, which then flow into such a large addiction, i want let me clarify something here, mr. yehor, that i generally believe that, in principle, a big condition for you to have good relations with china, at least for the former soviet republics, i would say more broadly, for the former socialist republics... is good relations with russia, you can't be an enemy of russia and a friend of china, that's why ms. natali mentioned hungary and serbia, they have good relations with russia, and the former soviet republics from the chinese political point of view are generally countries with limited sovereignty that just

need to know their place , and by the way, we we talk about these conflicts, about these projects, this is all yanukovych, at a time when the chinese were sure that ukraine was in the pocket of... russia, and when the russians themselves told them, yes, it is possible in the world, of course, it does not arise in we have no problems, but if there is another government, no, that is why i believe that there will be reconstruction here, no chinese will be here, because they will think that this is a proxy state of the states, yes, absolutely true, it is different, with russia and proxies of the state of the states are different things, for them they are not different, well, i think that yes, i think that most likely, if that is the political landscape. which is now will remain, and we will hope that it will remain, then obviously the chinese will not be here in that, in that format, thank god, because i participated or you will change the chinese, i agree that one of the best experts , they speak in china,

we do not belong to them, to experts on china, but we still have a whole army of experts, mr. valery, who exist for chinese benefits, i will not name them in this program, but we can already see them all . on television, i think today is infiltration china, well, precisely on these issues, mr. natalya, you will probably agree with me, you know it better than i do, higher than the infiltration of russia once was, i want to tell you one thing, what mr. natalya says , says, i myself took part in the conversations when the chinese in the delegations, well, when they talked about projects, for example, there is an air base there, an aviation hub that can be built there in the region of ukraine with large investments, not investments, well, a large chinese loan , a condition, state lending guarantees, well, that's a must, and by the way, none conditions, and this is not... yanukovych, mr. vitaly, here you have to understand that, well, i wouldn't tie it like that, but who was it, well, it

was before, well, before that, it wasn't so scary either, before it's not scary, later, after kutin, yuvchenko, poroshenko, well, yes, it was earlier, but these conditions that they provide, there is already a part of the workforce that will be used, and i will tell you, to be honest, the values, well, i don't know the value. they have their own values, yes, that is, why should we have them in common, we have in common with the western world, because christianity, in general, is very far from our values ​​there, if you conclude any economic contracts with the japanese or with the south koreans, the same values ​​are there, although they do not have christianity, you should not reduce it to a religion, that is right, confuse communism with reggae, i agree about values, but what about me, what i saw myself, they have those things, i don't know whether they are values, non-values, attitude to human life. yes, it is very similar to the soviet one, which is not available in taiwan, i am

afraid of this one, well, not that i am afraid, i think that the russian factor in this case, god forbid of russian success by using large mobilization resources of people, this may give china a false signal, because they have a lot of people in the army, and a huge army, yes, which, by the way, is now increasing, is... well, we are talking about the russian mobilization resource , imagine the chinese, yes, that is, it is real, and this is what, well, when you look at how they go to the armed forces there or the navy or their readiness for war, well, this worries me very much, because what to expose if wars will go the same way as now, well, i think that it will not be like that in the future, that is, after all , wars will be more with high-precision weapons, technological ones, if such ... as we have now in donbas, russia is attacking simply en masse, and while we sit,

russians are simply dying by the dozen, more a thousand per day, yes, that is, if it happens, then china here presents a very large statement, but china can only fight in the severus like this, it cannot even fight like this in taiwan, because there is a gulf there, if the russians start to declare something, as the leader of china did not like, for example, how the russian leader went to north korea without his consent, and he thinks exactly like that. without agreement, without agreement, without agreement, look, you can think or not think, these are estimates, there were all these estimates, after that, well, come on, let's discuss something, after that there was a reverse gesture, this is the sending of chinese units to belarus, it is already with putin without consent, without consent with putin, that is, let's assume that it was an exchange of such courtesies, it was, well, for experts, i read very... a lot of respectable let's from ms. natalya, do you believe that putin flew to pyongyang without consulting siji fin, or

that the kimian did not have a consultation, but you are turning it over, you are turning it over, you know, it seems to me that the coordination of the interaction between russia and north korea was in a certain way , because during the meeting, during shoigu's visit, then, it seems to lavrov, previous visits, they were there. representatives, as well as during kimchanin's visit to russia, to vladivostok, in the warehouse, in the pool, who was sitting at the table and they talked about something there, was a high-ranking chinese party official was noticed, it was talked about a lot in the press, so the whole defense minister of china was right there, and then in pyongyang, li shanfu then, yes, yes, yes, they are under the pretext, these were the first agreements that began between the two countries . from the point of view of weapons, but under the pretext of some kind of parade, that is

, initially, not initially, but in general, china in a certain way monitored what was happening between the two sides, so i, for example, can conclude that china knew about the possibility of obtaining weapons and was not against, but then, for example, i follow a lot of the south korean press, even such a press that specializes in these relations, and they noticed that with... which is happening now, plus this treaty on mutual defense, china did not like it in a certain way, they do conclusions on the basis of which, firstly, that china is sharp. took and said that a certain number of people, north koreans who work for them, they have to leave the territory of china because their term of stay has expired, that is, this labor force that brings in the currency that was, despite the un resolutions there on the bans that were in place, china kept the north koreans to itself, and here it abruptly at

the beginning of summer no, but sometime at the end of june it sends a large number of north koreans. and does not give consent to the same one, in fact, it is actually a suitcase at the russian station only in the chinese version, well, these are very interesting comments, and we also noticed that , for example, if during the past year 11 chinese delegations of various levels visited north korea there and vice versa, for example, from april this year there were almost no visits, that is, they noticed such a low intensity of interaction, and well, that is... experts who constantly monitor this topic, they conclude that china does not like, indeed, a very serious rapprochement between the two countries, where putin receives a certain greater influence, perhaps on north korea, or at least it somehow destroys the unconditional influence of china, well, accordingly, we cannot know exactly how, but they notice that china does not like something there, mr. natalie, well, in fact

, ms. natalie confirmed what was said, once again, that between dictatorships examples. dictatorships can be a complicated story, which we also need to use when we think about the future. we would like to thank mrs. natalya polaksymko botyrskyi, and we will continue with mr. igor svel and mr. valery chamy in just a few minutes. now i have a toothpaste that does more. lacquer active plus with a plus of active ingredients. i use it to overcome problems with clear and unpleasant smell. lacaluut aktiv+ with two-phase technology, actively overcomes bleeding clear and gives fresh breath. lacalot active plus - an action that you feel immediately. there are discounts on the rapier. 20% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. do you like to learn? do it for fun with my education. there are marketing, it, design, english, cooking, training and more.

learn from different devices, conveniently. choose free lectures or advanced courses. mhogo. education. we. let's learn.

healthy joints and back allow you to lead an active lifestyle. from pain in the joints and muscles, natural german comfrey ointment helps to eliminate pain, inflammation, stiffness and contains natural ingredients. buy dr. tais' ointment with comfrey, in a large package of 100 g. there are 10% discounts on son for you in pharmacies, plantain for you and savings. in the latest edition of the magazine ukraine. mykola knyazhytskyi tells how russia turned its church into a danger. a safe weapon of influence oleksandr matviychuk emphasizes the importance of international justice in the case of russia's war crimes in ukraine. oleg sahakyan analyzes why government reshuffles act as an injection of adrenaline for the state with the country at the center of the main events. buy country magazine at press outlets or pre-pay online. the espresso library presents the book

the marshall plan - the dawn of the cold war. the marshall plan is a program of economic assistance. european states after the second world war, and the marshall plan is not only history, it is the key to understanding how to turn the destroyed ukraine into a prosperous country. the marshall plan is a book that reveals the lessons of the past for the creators of ukraine's future. a book from the spirit and letter publishing house from the espresso library series. a story that inspires victory. there are discounts on proctobam, 20% in pharmacies plantain, bam and oskad. we continue the political club on the spresso tv channel, vitaliy pornyka is with you, we sum up the results of our discussion today with igor semvolosov and valery chal. yes, mr. igor, will democracies defeat dictatorships or will they coexist with them? how can this even be? well, given what we have seen over the last 150 years there, it is obvious that there will be coexistence, that is,

we can hardly talk about the victory of democracy, but in this case the key is who will be to establish the rules of the game, as far as the democrats are concerned, it is now decided, yes, democracies, in principle, democracies can collectively establish the rules. faster, more precisely longer, but more firmly than authoritarian regimes. i don't know to what extent market democracies can co-exist with early dictatorships, there was no such co-existence before, dictatorships were planned, well , at least until after the second world war, democracies were market-based, they were two worlds that hardly met each other, the world of the state plan, the world of rockefeller and ford, each considered this other world to be absolutely degenerate and everyone got along perfectly, but now rockefeller practically manages everything. the world has its own refs, i mean, putin is a reactionary in russia, well, looking at how it will go, there are three scenarios, or there will somehow be a territorial distribution, after all, despite

the globality of the world, it can be territorial, if isolation, well you you see, everyone creates their own social networks, their own businesses, their own exchanges, then, since china agrees in principle, although it acts differently, to divide the world including the territorial plan, here we influence, and the world of social networks, and here no for and here yes... when it will be a struggle for global, global competition, and in this regard, the same middle east may become now not an issue of the region , and to return, as it was during the cold war, to a global issue, yes, the confrontation of systems and the use of nuclear weapons by the ussr or the usa, who will break this stability, well, the third option will be returned back, here we are... about this tube and about pandora's box, i think, unfortunately, what does now the west is doing it, it wants to go back, not forward, it wants to go back without making

enough efforts, so unfortunately, it seems to me that a more realistic model is at least coexistence, and here too there are more characteristics will be more than just a market dictatorship, by the way, in such a world of power... and ukraine needs to think about it, it will not matter to us now whether it is a dictatorship or a democracy, it will be important to us whether this country supplies weapons against ukraine or no, we move into another category of thinking, ie we are a country that is already rethinking why dictatorships should supply us with weapons, but i want to make absolutely money, and what is not, there is, well, if i start calling these countries dictatorships. well, at least this is a very conditional democracy, which is sold to us through intermediaries, through intermediaries, of course, through intermediaries from democracy they sell weapons to dictatorships,

dictatorships sell us weapons, we sell democratic countries weapons to dictatorships, but i say when this happens, maybe not a dictatorship , authoritarian regimes, a little different, a literal regime, and no dictatorships sell, listen, why can't we solve the issue with chips now? in this circle, where rockets are included, which fly to ukraine, chips and dictatorships of democracy are included, right ? well, you mean, let's say that there are some chips that were purchased later than march 22, the truth is, that's why my thesis here is simply that the world will change, and ukraine's attitude should not be that there is democracy or authoritarianism, yes, that is, an ally or not an ally, well, it will have to be. the more we survive, the more this country helps us survive, so this one interest, pragmatism is now returning and cynicism should return to

the foreign policy of ukraine as well as how it all happens to us, unfortunately, unfortunately, and then we will fight for where the whole country trades with us and with russia at the same time, relatively speaking, both us and them are supplied with weapons, what should we do with such a country, here is india, here is a great example, we did not even talk about it. well it's a democracy it's a democracy that has a special relationship with russia and strategic partnership sells us arms india yeah well it's not officially, well, you say what to do, buy more technological weapons, or get than the enemy, at least make sure that what we get is better than theirs, but that's only talking about war, yeah, i don't i am talking about peacetime, in peacetime too, some dictatorial regimes... can be allies of dictatorships, and dictatorships can be allies of dictatorial saudi arabia, yes, but there is already a bigger market there, we are ukraine, we are talking about ukraine, we need a free market, in this respect we can

to be... allies only of democracy, we will not be able to become allies of dictatorships, even authoritarian regimes, this is the other side, i think that they will not really want to be allies with ukraine, this is our weakening simply during the war, it is not a question our weakening, yes absolutely true, because if we, it is like with china, if we become part of the west, then accordingly we are treated as to the west. with certain limitations, including from the point of view of their perception of the world, well, they will tell you, mr. igor, that there is bamboo diplomacy vietnam, vietnam is a socialist country, friendly with china, friendly, well, more or less, i don’t know if you can call it friendship, well, it has relations, i accept putin and it has a strategic partnership with the united states, biden goes there , it also turns out, maybe in our time and ukraine at one time could live like this among different people and have

strategists. colleagues, in short, the world will not be divided in the way we discussed, the world will be divided into those who have nuclear weapons and those who do not have nuclear weapons, the world will be divided into those who have military power and resources country, and those who do not have it, it is not so divided now, well, it did not become as obvious as during the time we are simply all reasonable in this world, during the wars it will become obvious, if we become members of nato, then we will where there are nuclear weapons and everything. right, because our task now will become critical where there are nuclear weapons, and belarus, it is in the csto and it has nuclear weapons of russia, it is there, so we will live peacefully, two authoritarian and democratic regimes will coexist, while in belarus there can something will happen, that's all, that is we will coexist like this, we will have allies, we don't have any allies, despite our democratic and market-oriented nature, and why, well, because we don't join unions, we don't join unions.

does something to them, well, we got out of it and we are trying, we don’t have a choice anymore, you know, we can discuss anything, well, the choice is everything, putin just forced us to have an election, we might as well not have done it, yes this choice, but this war and putin's actions. forced us, i don't know if this is the best choice for the country historically, but she doesn't do it herself, she doesn't do it herself, unfortunately, when there was an opportunity to do it herself, but when, when we tried, when another situation arose, now we were pushed, and now the member became first, and then everything else, and and unfortunately, we are trapped, but on the other hand, dialectically speaking, it was ukraine's inability to make a final choice that

actually created it. in which ukraine is forced to make this choice in favor of the west, in favor of the civilized world, because if this choice had been made earlier, then maybe correct historical choice, then of course there would have been no russian-ukrainian war, the russians would have sat quietly, as they sit quietly with nato member countries, of course they would have licked kyiv, kharkiv, odesa and the dnipro and ukraine in general, but this was an exceptional their own problem, because we have these problems, what is happening with them, our complex psychology. you did not go around and this should also be clearly understood, so in principle let's hope that it was an optimistic conversation, we thank our guests, to the director of the center for middle eastern studies ihor samivalos, former ambassador of ukraine to the united states, diplomat, political expert valery chalay, thank you for being with us in this program, thank you for inviting me, thank you for your feedback, and i want to thank all our dear viewers, who were with us today in this broadcast of the program.

vitaly portnikov guided you, i wish you victory and peace, friends, see you, good luck.