that no matter what they do, it does not change what is happening around, well there and that is not only from the point of view of politics, but also from the point of view of social affairs there, well, whatever, and that's why, well if there is an opportunity to make money from it, well, if our life is not worth anything there, and you can earn money there for your family and everything else, they try to make money, and... there is such an illusion, well, among many, that this is all voluntarily, that is, if someone there in the village signs a contract for this precisely chose such a fate, they choose their own path, and of course it's not like that, of course, even if purely formally they sign voluntarily, it's all because of the circumstances.

their lives, well, but it will calm the people who live there in moscow, there in st. petersburg, there in other, in other places, and of course, it is very bad, but it dulls this sense of danger and that something bad is happening, but at some point, of course, this will change, this, this will definitely happen, but mr. igor rightly said that... a lot depends on social affairs, and here i am now, i am all i highly recommend the book here, i read a mobilized nation, it is called about the germany of the second world war, and there are many interesting things there, there are many parallels with modern russia, uh, and firstly, that the germans were very worried about the beginning of the second world war in on the 39th when they later saw

that nothing like that was happening inside their country, they calmed down, and then even when there was a defeat there near stalingrad, they were like, well, we heard something there, but the main thing was when hamburg happened, and the war came home, and they heard everything when there was an energy crisis, there was not enough coal, and we do not even know about this episode in this war, but for... the germans of that time, this was the main thing that shaped their attitude to their government and to the war in general, and that is why i believe that we must now do our best to influence the russian economy, everything is in such an unstable state there, inflation is rising, prices are rising, and this can affect the mood inside russia, very fundamentally , and we can influence it again,

we do not do anything in this direction, unfortunately. i want to tell you that it is necessary to understand how totalitarian regimes prepare the population for war, and then we can understand why, say, russians sign contracts, many people in ukraine avoid mobilization, and it looks different than in russia , although there were also a million, a million people who left, who left the country and but, but what i want to say, there are two methods of getting people to want to participate in military actions. real, first of all, it is ideological, it is as in in hitler's germany, in the soviet union, when a certain part of people were simply processed ideologically, they believed in the idea of ​​the national socialist workers' party, or the cpsu, vkpb, then, i remember how i read in the memoirs of the famous russian writer there, gennady vladimirov, who there, on june 22, 1941, he was a cadet on the border between the soviet union and germany, well, between poland and poland, let's say that, and they were rejoicing in... the cadets got drunk

because they thought that, thank god, germany had finally attacked and now we come to paris, they didn’t even think that it could be different, they had the joy of the victors, if tomorrow there was a war, if the enemy attacked, that is, on june 23, everything was already different, he talks about the 22nd, i am not talking about the german people there, there another method, which is also absolutely effective, you bring the population to a barbaric state in social terms. when the population does not have any social alternatives, well, in general, it’s just that this population actually doesn’t know how to live its life, and after that you offer it money with the participation of war, so in putin's regime has no ideological possibilities, it's not an ideological regime, all this talk about a great russia, it's not communism and not nazism, it's a general idea that is not perceived as something for which you have to sacrifice your life.

there are not many nationalists, so-called chauvinists in russia, and most people are apolitical, but when you are a person who lives in a village, has no money, and you offer money, she basically has no chance, she never has. will not have her own apartment, she will never be able to marry normally, she will live with by her parents, that is, she is actually an outsider, and here she is given the opportunity to become not an outsider, to climb the social ladder, as putin admitted yesterday that he is a veteran, a war veteran since the 14th year, to the press in the ural federal district so that everyone can see that you can earn money in the war, positions, money, everything, there are a million social alternatives in ukraine, that's the problem, any people... there are a million social alternatives outside the level of prosperity, related to the fact that the economy is more flexible, that there is no such state control over the economy, that there are no frankly poor regions compared to others, so a person has a million opportunities, besides serving in the army,

if this person is not politically engaged, he has opportunities, so we say, maybe if we paid, no, pay money is possible, if a person has no alternative, if there is one, he will use it... that is correct, but the operation was adopted by putin as a model, there is no such pure model, well , of course, russia started a war not with ukraine, but with georgia, that is, the decision about the military of the early 2000s, well, not only him, in 2007 he told the whole world about it, right, but he started then, the russians had social elevators back in 2008. they were there and there were no such problems, there is probably one more nuance here, each country is different, then the russians rose a little higher in economically, but they saw how they were lagging behind other countries, from the west, from this, during the period here we were already

equal, ukraine was losing to russia economically, but the moment came when there was no longer such a gap, such gaps were not large, and putin saw that he could do something else... a model to show at least the same results, that is, they began to feel this inferiority towards the americans, so that they don’t tell me, a lot of russians are russian at the top, they feel their inferiority in relation to the west, look at peskov, who is temporarily acting as putin’s propagandist, there he has yes, wife or ex-wife, american citizenship, daughter, french citizenship there, everyone, the whole family with citizenships. all the families of soviet leaders stalin, khrushchev, brezhlev, andropov and all others, all live together the united states of america, gorbachev, this is a de facto recognition that these countries after all showed them a greater model of development, so when they are faced with the impossibility of showing a model

that is competitive, they go, of course, in the other direction, let's point to those who on which you can show that we are still so great. and this feeling of greatness, well, look at ordinary life, you can walk around poor, unhappy, but you want to be there very confident, and even if a group, and this is the phenomenon of this pack, well, not a pack, he said incorrectly, in russia crowds, crowds of crowds, in ukrainian, that is, this phenomenon, when you unite all this and here for greatness, this is a very big thing, and in ukraine it works, yes, please, i... that we just need not to confuse here the moods of the elites and the moods of ordinary citizens, because the elites , of course, are undervalued here in full, it has always been, and it remains so, but we can play on it,

on the contrary, we can use it to pull people out of this environment and tempt . they are to be transferred to our side, but again this does not happen either, but from the point of view there are ordinary citizens, they do not have such a complex, for them, on the contrary, it is such an abstract dream, all these americas, there is europe, there is everything else, and that is why there is an eternal battle, and it is very, very easy to play with the authorities, and this is exactly what it is. and does here, well , we talked about social elevators there all 90 years ago, people there somewhere in the hinterlands felt that they did not exist precisely because all the capital was concentrated in

large cities and people there, for example, from novosibirsk villages, where i was gathered as a member of the state duma, they never and in the 90s and in the 2000s, they... felt that they could do something, and they never had an alternative, that they could say, okay, if not putin, then someone, the last alternative theoretically existed for them, when in 1996 and then there was a certain rise in the middle of the country there someone voted for him, even there many people say that the majority voted for him, but even precisely because people think that the majority voted for him, but he was not collected, he was not allowed to power, and that is why people and they say, well, that's all, well, what we do, we do, but nothing changes, we will do our own thing there. i want to continue a little, mr. ilya, we did and are doing research on the occupied

territories, and here is what we noticed, if we talk about ordinary russian soldiers of various nationalities who are in the occupied territories, that they are attracted by the government in addition to money, they for the first time they can, and cashlessness, yes, for the first time they can demonstrate power, they can finally... they can realize this complex of power in relation to others, and this happens very often, and this well, yes, this is the right moment, well, this is a story with a type, it is, only with an armed mob, and others show it, by the way, i would like to, maybe i see it from the outside, but i am certain the period was engaged in russia there until the 14th year, and i saw how it gradually changed, a lot of young people, in fact, well, they are not russians, but all the same they gradually reduced their

desire in general, somehow there was something to criticize, they were gradually introduced into some kind, it is not just one regime of putin, there are 100 people, no, it is not the fact that there is nikonov, well known to mr. ponomaryov, when he received it, he is molotov's grandson, by the way, when he received the dapa, and it is said that it is his molotov ribbentrop. tried to show himself as some rational-thinking political scientist, then he was on the tv screens and then he suddenly got a dacha over the fence there in barviykh, they gave him this dacha just for something and suddenly a person began to behave completely differently now, the first beginning of a large-scale invasion when russian television was still by the way, it was not completely... well, closed for comments, he appeared there and

said a lot of such terrible things in the direction of ukraine, that's why the person has changed, it's biological, i think, it's always been like that, i remembered the publication for the rest of my life, some kind of estonian publication of the time, and this too it seems to me that this is a disease of the russian elite and what led to these events, they asked two people to write articles, the grandson, this is real, and i am hamofon ribbentrop, a former minister. of foreign affairs of hitler's germany and grandson of vyacheslav molotov, former people's commissar of foreign affairs of the soviet union, signatories of this agreement. and here was ribbintrop's text about how the germans understand their responsibility to the baltic countries, how they rethought the past, how they apologize for it. and in nikanov's text that the soviet union could not do otherwise, that it was defending itself from a possible attack, that he does not believe that it was an occupation, that many people in the baltic countries wanted to be part of it. of the soviet union, that is, two worlds, two worldviews were visible there, and the horror

was that the grandson of molotov, the grandson of a man, who was one of the participants in the victory in the second world war, were, spoke with roosevelt and churchill, received the heroes of socialist labor, precisely as a member of the state defense committee, speaks like hitler, and the grandson of rabintrop, who was punished at the nurs trial, speaks like this, as an ally, and one more moment, the key word, by the way, we are talking. only reasons, but when the conditions for this are created, it seems to me that here you need to create an illusion or a feeling that you are being attacked, you are on the defensive, your family is behind you, yours is behind you, your home, your country, and always that germany was originally hitler's there, they created it, they attack us, that is, they pressure us, the poles attack us, well, there even when they annexed czechoslovakia, it was the same, yes they pressure the germans, they speak german there, and we have to protect them, that is, the key thing is to create the conditions when

a person feels that he is protecting his own, and then it is not so for them for for for the same way they created for the fascists, the nazis, for the nazis, the same story , why are you going there, and because otherwise we will be attacked, or, well, plus, we still need to create the illusion that you are, after all, by your, i don’t know, birth, origin, you are in... by the way, what is russia explaining to its people in this regard now, why they, we will ask the elite. above, and i am not talking about the regime here, in general, yes, that is, about people from moscow who come to any provincial city in post-soviet russia and explain how one should actually live, so they literally create the same illusion , like hitler during the second world war and created, because that's exactly how it literally happened there the same thing that goebbels said there about the fact that

if we did not attack, we would be attacked there, that we protect our russian-speaking people there. donbas is there, everything is different, but the question is that now the ukrainian army is in the kursk region, and somehow i don’t see people there among the locals who would defend their territory, some have fled, some are staying, but the opera, i am i don't see it there at all, and this is the flip side of what i said, how they don't... join in fighting there, they're not ready to defend themselves, because they believe that they do not influence anything, they are spectators here, they do not participate in the events, and this is on the one hand scary, on the other hand it is our opportunity again, which can be used for victory, there

is no mobilization there, and again there is such a parallel with this one. by fascist germany, that is the book i quoted there, german sociology shows that there, too, people were not very disposed to the defense of ukraine, they delegated it to hitler, hitler did something there, they supported him, and they themselves there are more observers of what is happening here, the change in this mood has begun. after hamburg, after the bombing of hamburg in 1943, and after that, people began to say that this is how we need to defend ourselves, because it is for us, the death of the jews, that we destroyed them, they will not be forgiven, and that is why it is necessary to defend, on the other hand , the popularity of the essence regime fell, and this opened up an opportunity for there for

there. of the events of 1944, when there was an institution against against hitler, and putin understands, and that is exactly why he chooses that let people just they are waiting there, let them be calm, but he does not increase the degree of this tension in the middle of the country, he is afraid that his popularity will disappear very quickly, well, this is a very interesting moment. in any case, it is clear that in such regimes we are always dealing with an atomized society that does not feel like a real player, because if it starts to feel like a real player, they feel responsible, and the elite, and this is also important end this part with this thought, she is afraid of responsibility for crimes, because she understands that if she loses power, she becomes responsible for

the crimes she has already committed, hoping for impunity, and then it turns out that she has to go to the end at that time. but there is one very important point here, which i concluded from the fact that the gentleman said that ordinary russians will not put up any resistance, this is the second part, well, the reverse side of the coin, until they are systematically embedded in this whole story, or a civil servant , or he is at war, and that is, the key to stopping the flanking war, is overcome payment, this apparatus.

as a military regime since the victory of mao zedong, the main body there is a military council under the cpc central committee. we always forget about this, that this is not the cpsu, where the military was not reduced to the status of insects, i would say, but this is really a party based on the army, a permanent active rate, a postinka active rate, absolutely, and that is what we need to talk about also remember when we talk about these regimes, by the way, in the next part of our program we will talk about china, i would like to thank ilya panamar, a russian oppositionist and former state deputy duma of the russian federation for participating in this part of our program, and we will continue our conversation with igor svivolosy, valery chely, literally in a few minutes. now i have a toothpaste that does more. lacquer activ+ with a plus of active ingredients. i use it for gum problems and bad breath.

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turning ukrainians into little russians. ukraine will become russia. let's counter the information attacks of the russians in the chronicles of information war project with olga ley. tuesday, thursday at 5:15 p.m., repeat tuesday, friday at 10:00 p.m. see this week in the collaborators program. who is planting russian peace to schoolchildren in the captured part of the kherson region. we must know our history and tell the truth. but how did a former militant of the lpr lead the occupied district of ukraine? no options at all for me yet. on tuesday, october 8 at 5:45 p.m., watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko on the espresso tv channel. we continue the politclub program on

the spresso tv channel, with you vitaliy portnikov, ihor simovolos, valery chala, and we will now add natalia plexienko to our broadcast butyrska, an expert on east asia, a master of foreign policy, we congratulate mrs. nataliya, congratulations, good evening, and we have joined mr. natalya to talk about china, because china is also ours. in the eyes of this state, which was modernizing, in our eyes turned into a state that once again looks like the familiar kitaimadzedu, the uppermost china densiopin, but i have to say, mr. natali, that in recent years i have reconsidered the meaning of the famous proverb, the famous proverb, which is attributed to densiopin when it comes to economic changes in china, deng xiaoping used to say that it doesn't matter what color the gut is, as long as it catches mice, and that's because the chinese communist party, during the reign of pin, just when he was the informal leader of the state, and by the way, the chairman of the military council of the cpc central committee, which we

have already mentioned. it allowed market elements in the economy, and everyone always believed that this was the moment of china's survival, because the market economy allows it to survive, the planned economy does not, and i now think that maybe it was not said for the sake of it, but what is not it doesn't matter what tools help the chinese communist party to get its power, just to get it, and then the logic is what's happening with xi jinping, it's there, and it's not some kind of, i would say, a change of orientation, but it's quite... you can see the continuation of the policies of deng tseopin and the policies of his heirs, and by the way, the policies of those who were before deng tseopin, mao zedong and jonglai, maybe they just hold power since the victory in the civil war and are ready for any decisions, only so that this power remains in their hands, so to speak, in a certain way, you can say that, because china, as we see with you, adapts the best forms

of everything that comes into their hands and adapts it to their own, to their own realities, and that's why when you said that china initiated openness , on the one hand , they realized that at some point for their survival, for investments, for their development, it is necessary to initiate this investment and openness, but nevertheless , a number of enterprises remained in the hands of the communist party, which are still state-owned, and the state manages them, and these enterprises, they received, for example, benefits from the state, despite the fact that... the locomotive of the chinese economy in general was small business, medium-sized business, but nevertheless we see that until now the chinese authorities not only did not give up on management, and she again returned to the usual forums, as for xijin ping himself, he also says that they are building socialism with chinese characteristics in the new era, that is, they will borrow what they

get from... for their economy, what drives them, they were happy to copy technologies, they were happy to accept investments in exchange for these technologies being transferred to their territory, and now they will move their socialism with chinese characteristics to a technological state that will be, that is trying defeat the united states of america, become a global leader. well, maybe it shouldn’t be like that at all, if they get such economic power, then they want to bring to this economic power politically and become a state that can be on an equal footing with the united states, which in this is illogical, on the other hand, yes, definitely, definitely, maybe the world missed this moment, when money was poured into china and they did not notice that the ambitions of the state that was oppressed, well, the chinese talk about a century of oppression, and about, and in any case, the chinese will tell you about a great civilization,

a unique, great... question for ukraine, i do not claim to know all these details, the only thing i will say is that i followed the documents that were adopted gradually, well, communicating with the chinese, different chinese, and from hong kong, and from taiwan, from beijing, i understood that they are moving and at the same time they want to become big, well... this new, new era, and, regardless of where he lives, a chinese, to taiwan, let's do china is great again, the antithesis of donald trump, that is why it was written, i still remember chinese documents, 20 years ago, that the chinese must, well, eat meat with rice, and not just one rice, that is, it must be ensured, well there was a whole program to ensure, in fact, the growth of the middle class, yes, the growth of the middle class inevitably had to lead to

corrections of the political system. and it happened, i thought what will happen in china when they have billionaires, that is, people who are economically independent will appear, more and more, what you, and what happened, it happened, what do you say to whom, i think, that zenping returns to mao zedong, not to dengxiao ping, he returns to mao zedong and in this way puts under control in some way, firstly, businessmen or universities now for the last 2-3 years, how many examples. or out of bounds if you don't want to share and give away part of your business the communist party, well, why not become a part of the system, that is, and ending with the disappearance of people, not only ministers of defense disappear from them, as recently, but billionaires disappear somewhere, we do not know these details, there was a billionaire who went to the american the market, a wonderful business, once it disappeared.