reduce to the correction of the political system, and it came, i thought what would happen in china when they have billionaires, that is, that you will have people who are economically independent, more and more, that you, and what happened, it happened, what do you say to whom, i believe that shizen ping goes back to mao zedong, not where, not to dengxiao ping, he goes back to mao zedong, and thus puts under control, in what way, the first, the businessmen or the pushed out... now the last two or three years, how many examples, or pushed out of bounds, if you don't want to share and not to give part of your business to the communist party, or not to become part of the system, that is, and ending with the disappearance of people, not only defense ministers disappear from them, as recently, but billionaires, but billionaires disappear somewhere, we do not know these details, there was a billionaire who entered the american market, a great business, once he disappeared. it

does not exist, that is, that is why i think that they are just faced with a model when economic development has become, well, it somehow does not coincide with the political system, and now it turns out that to do with the political system, and the choice they made is in my opinion uncharacteristic of china, the chinese sky is big enough to develop, that is, they have the population that allows, that is... inside, and they went the way, well at least i see statements of expansion, that is, well, they do not think that this is expansion, that this is taiwan, that this is their titai, but compared to the world that was before this, this is already territorial expansion, there is nothing new, these bebet was also so actually annexed, even more than taiwan, i would say, an annexed region and an annexed state, as it were, but on another historical, well, external, they used soft power. they are

one belt, one road, economic influence, entry, i was a representative of ukraine in the organization of american states, i will not go anywhere, and i am an ambassador there in some countries of the caribbean basin for the cooperation of the united states, i will tell you, i am coming to the country, which means the chinese, the chinese airport, the main road, the big one, the port, well, there is everything that is big chinese, that is, everyone has it, it was an expansion economic, they were influencing in this way, they could continue to do so, well... continue these expansions as well, why did they switch more to military issues? they recently built a modern submarine, a new nuclear submarine, which sank, however, right there in june , it sank right at the shipyard, when they were handing over this chulk, but that’s the way it is , i have a question, do we realize what this will mean for ukraine and whether or not i will still finish, for ukraine, why is it important, because we have a lot of people who think that they grow in the tightrope between the usa and the west

and china, more than we think, and this is a key issue for us, let china develop until it becomes part of our problems, and now the main thing is that china is currently part of our problems, and unfortunately , i do not see options where this is part of our solutions, at least in the war with russia, please, i want to say, i read mancher ulson's book sometime in the early 2000s. it is precisely there that such a famous economist, institutionalist, and it is precisely there that he writes a lot about china, and writes about the processes of centralization, that is, it is the end of the 90s, he wrote on this material, and he absolutely says that china will reach a certain certain crisis, which mr. valeriy spoke about, and then one of the possible and possible and realistic options is centralization resources. and after that the centralization

of resources, the country finds itself in a situation of either collapse or external expansion, and they, and then actually all this happens, and it was very strange when we talk about our experience, that is, russia went through this path faster than china, and russia ensured centralization resources, found itself in a certain systemic crisis and the way out of this systemic crisis... she saw the expansion, china is moving in the same way, and by and large yes, it is obvious that china is part of our problems and by no means the solution, and obviously also , that based on this theory and practice , we will see further expansion of china and russia with joint expansion, and if they are not stopped, joint expansion, or will russia be in the role of a proxy? but i understand here

that the dimensions are not proportional, yes, but in in principle, as of now, they are absolutely satisfied with being the chinese hizbollah, russians, russians, well, of course, that’s what they say, we ’re back, finally the war brought us back to china, that’s another element that i know from experience, in 22 year we had a serious pause at the official level of contacts with the chinese. well, the president of ukraine did not receive the chinese ambassador, well, because they acted quite clearly against it then, well, how to continue, and in this situation, well, some of my acquaintances, working diplomats, asked me, using the experience there somewhere to try

to find some greater common language, they allowed the chinese to speak more then, unlike the previous time, they were allowed to be more free in discussions, we were interesting. discussions, well, i won’t say with whom, but these are official chinese representatives, they ended with what we wrote in the ukrainian crisis media center, we had employees who were fluent in chinese and worked in china, wrote such a very complementary material in the style chinese, in their edition, and they read and they said, that's great, and the second part was, why should china turn to face ukraine, not only russia, still take... a more balanced position, and they said, this is very good material, we need it, we we will even publish it in the party organ, just add a few more paragraphs, which paragraphs, well, anti-american, anti-american, that is, yes, the question is, why won’t

you pass, you won’t pass on this, my cooperation with these people has ended, that is, anti-americanism is a big part, why? so why does this happen, ot ms. natalya, here is an interesting point, firstly anti-mechanism, and secondly another thing, in 2022 we saw on the pages of the chinese media, well at least the more or less uncontrolled ones like the south china morning post and other such publications, quotes from the statements of chinese experts very high-ranking at the level of directors of academic institutes, that russia with its attack on ukraine has significantly limited its influence, that it will lose the war, that china... it is necessary to find the possibility of some, i would say, balance of interests in this war, to speak with moscow and kyiv. now there are no more such statements. what happened during this time? it seems to me that there were not enough of them, and this was said by experts who, in any case, were

connected with american think tanks, that is, we must understand that the chinese actively interacted with the americans until the war happened and... . when they are now gradually withdrawing and censoring even such experts, because, for example, the material of one of the experts, who was once quite well-known among them and belonged to such expert circles, came out very recently important, and he wrote about the fact that russia will lose, that is, he described in his material that russia will lose and laid out arguments why and why china needs to see precisely this balanced position, but... he was very seriously attacked by experts who support a completely opposite opinion, which are the voices of the party, and what's more, he was taken from this institution to which he belonged, that is, from my point of view , those voices who, in any case

, thought that they could express such a view more widely , but for today after all, party censorship pushes such experts, and for the most part we see how their media broadcast russian narratives, and if there is, for example, a claim that they weigh the position and allegedly add ukrainian opinions or even quote president zelensky, they make it so that in any case ukraine looks in a very bad and negative world, and recently... this is even more, even more noticeable from my point of view, in the chinese media, and it's interesting, isn't it? in view of all the anti-americanism, sijin ping wants to be biden's partner, the san francisco summit, all these meetings, he is really trying all the time to build such

a dialogue with the president of the united states, he wants to do what putin would do if he could . you remembered the san francisco summit well, after that summit everyone expected... something new, large-scale, we remember that a personal meeting, there were certain conflicts there at the time, and by the way, around ukraine, this is also a topic , which now separates them. it is not clear what was decided interestingly in these on the paths of this garden, which ended in nothing, well at least nothing that would change the position of china , so i have great doubts that china will change this trend, it will rather be true, what is constantly being said in the united states , to get closer to russia, well, to have russia as a tool, by the way, not only in terms of ... are there any actions, as a proxy, but the arctic, that is, there is an arctic, china has

actually already taken away from the russians these rights to pass through the arctic route, that is, well, china does not have a the principles of some serious arguments why they should change their policy now from these points of view, well, everything is fine, that is, the only thing is that they really start to twitch when putin loses, but they don’t want to be together... with the losing side, that’s for sure, that’s why i think that china is for china, well, we have to fight for china's position, of course, i don't know how, i'm saying, i don't know how, now the ambassador will most likely come back to us, that is, most likely, well, so they say, people are unofficial, journalists say they are aware of this, that they will change the ambassador, well, again, that won't solve the problem because we have nothing to offer china, that is, we have what they want. as we have, by the way, you know that we have an active strategic partnership agreement, it

has remained so, signed since the time of yanovych, yanukovych traveled to sign it, but it was not torn up, but it is written there that we we have to give , for example, how many times it was difficult to give, to give what is actually impossible now, because we have partner states that supply us with weapons, that is, we cannot give everything at the same time we cannot do, but those actions of ours, when we gave our former soviet ships to the military, and they turned them into aircraft carriers, and no one remembers this, and that's all, and the chinese do not see us at all, they don't see us at all, and we can't offer them anything, because it will be against our interests today, if even before the large-scale war, they offered the chinese there to build a road around kyiv for a lot. funds with government guarantees, then we decided that the road would be better for us

to do, and what now, the chinese, by the way , calculated, and this is a moment that was delicate, at one time the chinese were offered areas in the crimea, a big one, and this was one of the topics of conversation, that is, we have run out of arguments , in my opinion, what we can offer to china, and china from its own. on the other hand , seeing the position, i am not interested in these proposals, let's be honest, ms. natalya, the chinese wanted to build a deep-sea port during yanukovych's time, well, it was supposed to serve as a trade port, but nevertheless, all trade is chinese, it boils down to regarding the possibility of reworking it, i would also like to mention xijin ping in relation to biden, so we should pay attention to such chinese proposals where... china, where china through finny's mouth reminded biden that the world is quite big, and two countries are so big, how china

and the united states of america can fit in it absolutely freely, without interfering with each other, that is, here china's proposal is that the world can be divided conveniently for two countries, in fact, in such a way that they do not interfere with each other, do not cross interests each other, well, plus one proposal, this is technological pressure, which is the basis, the locomotive of china's movement, accordingly, the restrictions that biden introduces and unites around him partners, high-tech countries, well, it is obvious that china does not like this at all, that is, these are such proposals, the conversation between the two countries revolves around them, and it is obvious that the united states is not ready to allow china to such an extent as to divide the world, relatively speaking, into two parts, and with regard to... ukraine, what we can offer, here indeed, i agree with

mr. valery, that there are not so many tools, it is another matter whether we are ready to be, for example, hungary or serbia, such a country that oscillates between different poles there, especially in the current conditions, when security guarantees are also important for us, when for us our economic potential and military potential are important, and we depend on the europeans and the united states for this. america, yes, we can switch to china, but chinese loans are a very serious addiction, so hidden, that many countries fall into, well, plus... when we let's say about our western partners, after all, despite the fact that they are not ideal, despite a lot of questions about democracy, a lot of questions about everything that is happening even around the support of ukraine, after all, these countries are western enemies unite values, but china and its

partners do not unite values, and china unites and sends only money. and accordingly you cannot be a reliable partner of china, no matter how you are, today you are a profitable partner, today you can give a deep-sea port there or some fields, let's say or any other resources for china, but it is still an unequal absolutely some kind of friendship, and it is not an equal partnership, and i think that ukraine needs to be very seriously weighed, even in matters of reconstruction, if such a thing arises, because i have heard many proposals , for example, how to drag it out... china, and our authorities there periodically, among other things, talked about reconstruction, about projects for china, and some of our western partners, but still i think that in this case we would be better to do without such offers, because we do not know what is behind it, what is behind it for those opaque loans, which then result in such great dependence. i want

to clarify something, mr. yehor, that i generally believe that, in principle, a major condition for... having good relations with china, at least for the former soviet republics, i would say more honestly, for the former socialist countries, is good relations with russia, you cannot be an enemy of russia and a friend of china, that is why ms. natali mentioned hungary and serbia, they have good relations with russia, and the former soviet republics from china from a political point of view, these are generally countries with limited sovereignty that simply need to know their place, and by the way, we are talking about these. conflicts, about these projects, it's all about yanukovych, at a time when the chinese were sure that ukraine was in the pocket of russia, and when the russians themselves told them, yes, in the world it is possible, of course, we do not have any problems with this, but if the other government does not, so i believe that there will be a reconstruction here, no chinese will be here, because they will think that this is a proxy state of the states, yes, absolutely true,

yes, it is different, with russia, the proxy states of the states, these are different things, for them it is not different. well, i think that yes, i think that most likely, if this is it, the political landscape that exists now will remain, and we will hope that it will remain, then obviously there will be no chinese here in that you, in that format, thank god, because i participated or the chinese will change, i agree what one of the best experts says on china, we are not one of them, the experts on china, but we still have a whole army of experts, sir valerie? i think today infiltration of china, well, precisely on these issues, mr. natalya, you will surely agree with me, you know it better than i do, higher than the infiltration of russia used to be, i want to tell you one thing, what mrs. natalya says, says, i myself took part in

the conversations when the chinese were in the delegations, well, when they talked about projects, for example, the hub... there was an airfield of an aviation hub that could be built there in the region of ukraine with large investments, not investments, but chinese credit by and large, the condition, state lending guarantees, well, this is a must, and by the way, no conditions, and it's not with yanukovych, mr. vitaliy, here you have to understand that i would n't be so tied to who it was, well, it was before, well, it wasn't so scary before either. before, not bad, later, after a bunch, well, when, well, yes, it was before, but these conditions that they provide, there is also a part of the workforce that will be used, and i will tell you, to be honest, values, well, i don't know values, they have their own values, yes, that is, why should

we have them in common, we have in common with the western world, because christianity, and there in general, are very distant from our values, if you... with the japanese or with the south koreans conclude some kind of economic contracts there, the same values, although they do not have christianity, you don’t need to lose your dear ones, i pray correctly, i agree, but what about me, what i saw myself, they have those things, i don't know if they are values, non-values, an attitude towards human life, very similar to the soviet one, which is not found in taiwan, well, that is, i am afraid of this , well, not that i am afraid, i think that fact. from russia in the event, god forbid, of russian success, by using large mobilization resources people, this may give china a wrong signal, because they have... a lot of those who are in the army, and a huge army, yes, which, by the way, is now increasing, this, well, we are talking about the russian mobilization resource, imagine

chinese, yes, that is, it is real, and this is what, well, when you look at how, how they go to the armed forces there, or the navy or their readiness for war, well, this worries me very much, because what will be exposed if the wars go in this way, as in... well, i think that it will not be like this in the future, that is, there will be wars after all more with high-precision weapons, technological, if they are like what we have now in donbas, russia is attacking simply en masse, and while we are sitting, russians are simply dying by the dozens, then a thousand per day, yes, that is, if it happens, then china is here presents a very long explanation, but china can only fight in siberia like this, it cannot even fight like this in taiwan, because there is a gulf there, if the russians start to declare something, how did the leader of china not like it, for example, how did the russian leader leave without his acceptance into north korea, and thinks, just like that without consent, without consent, without consent, look, you can

think or not think, no, these are estimates, there were all these estimates, after that, well, come on, let's discuss, after that there was a reverse gesture , this is the sending of chinese units to belarus, this is putin's peace with russia. agreement with putin, that is, let's assume that it was an exchange of such pleasantries, it was, well, for the experts, i read a lot of respectable ones, let's have ms. natalie, i'm just asking, do you believe that putin flew to binhyang without agreement with sidzimpin, or is it the case that the kimian did not have an agreement, well, you are turning it over, you are turning it over, you know, it seems to me that the coordination of the interaction between russia and north korea was in a certain way, because... that during the meeting, during shoigu's visit, then, it seems to lavrov, the previous visits, there were representatives of china, and also during kimchanin's visit to russia to vladivostok, in the warehouse,

in the pool, where they were sitting at the table and they were talking about something, a high-ranking chinese party official was seen , there was a lot of talk about it in the press, so the entire defense minister of china was right there, and at that time in pyongyang. so they are under the pretext, these were the first agreements that started between the two countries in terms of weapons, but under the pretext of some kind of parade, that is , initially, not not initially, but in general, china was in a certain way monitoring what was happening between the two sides, so i , for example, i can conclude that china knew about the possibility of obtaining weapons and was not against it, but then i, for example, follow many cocks. of the non-korean press, even such a press, which specializes in these relations, and they noticed that the rapprochement that is happening now, plus this treaty on mutual defense,

china did not like it in a certain way, they draw conclusions on the basis of which, firstly, china took it sharply and said that a certain the number of people, the north koreans who work for them, they have to leave the territory of china because their period of stay... is over, that is, this currency-earning labor force that was, despite the un resolutions, there on the bans that after were, china held he has north koreans, and here he suddenly did not at the beginning of the summer, but somewhere at the end of june he sends a large number of north koreans and does not give consent to the same one, this is in fact, this is actually a suitcase station russia only in the chinese version, well, this is interesting a lot of remarks and... and they also noticed that, for example, while last year 11 chinese delegations of various levels visited north korea there and vice versa, then,

for example, since april of this year , there were almost no such visits, that is, they noticed such a low intensity interaction, and that is experts who constantly monitor this topic, they conclude that china does not like, really, a very serious rapprochement between the two countries, where putin is ... a certain greater influence, perhaps on north korea, or at least he somehow destroys the unconditional influence of china, well, accordingly we can't know exactly how, but i notice that china doesn't like something there, thank you, thank you, mr. natalia, well, patali actually confirmed what she says, once again, that between dictatorships, between dictatorships, there can be something like that, too complex story which it is also necessary, by the way, to use when we think about the future. healthy joints and back allow you to be active.

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it's 2 p.m. in ukraine and to your attention is a news release on the espresso tv channel. iryna koval works for you in the studio, just now i will tell you about the most important thing. events and we begin with the situation in zaporizhzhia: russian terrorists attacked infrastructure facilities, three employees of these enterprises were injured, announced the head of the region, ivan fedorov. one victim is in the hospital with a variable explosive injury, two more are being examined by doctors. and there are already 17 wounded in kherson, among them at least two children aged three and five years the injured are currently under the supervision of doctors.